Dick Grayson's new status quo - "permanent," or short-term?

[Claude]

Being a spy and a Vigilante trained by Batman isn't very different, its really just a title change. Dick as Nightwing, he isn't trying to be Batman that's the whole point of Nightwing. He is trying to be his own hero and do things his own way.

It's just that his way is very, very like Batman's way?

[byrd156]

Yes, pretty much. Like it or not, Batman is simply the archetype from which they are all quite obviously derived. Jason has, to an extent, moved beyond that, but it took some fairly dramatic developments. Oracle also managed it in the old continuity, but once again it took drastic storylines to get her there. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Not every character needs to stand on their own and aspire to independent status. But if a character does so aspire, and many people over the years have said that Dick should make a move for A-list status, then you can't do it inside Bruce's shadow as a hero, whatever the personal relationship the characters may have.

Ok what about the Wonder family, Flash Family, Super family, Shazam family? Just because they come from an archetype they aren't worth reading? Dick is only in the shadow because the writer or DC or you (the reader) wants him to be there. Only the New 52 version is in Batman's shadow and even pre52 Dick's shadow.

[byrd156]

It's just that his way is very, very like Batman's way?

Is it really? Wears a costume, fights crime, uses signature weapons. Yes Batman holds the monopoly on these things. So other characters like Green Arrow and so on fight crime like Batman's way.

[Claude]

Is it really?

Yes. I mean, can you think of a "Nightwing" story in the last ten years that shows a marked difference from the Batman way of doing things? From the Batman style of adventure? I mean, I think they were phased out but didn't Nightwing use to actually still use batarangs?

I mean, it's early days on "Grayson" - but making friends with a technologically augmented Russian target-of-hitmen in order to remove his artificial superpowers is a mission that not only would Batman not have gone on, but a tactic that Batman wouldn't have been able to execute.

[Kid A]

Is it really? Wears a costume, fights crime, uses signature weapons. Yes Batman holds the monopoly on these things. So other characters like Green Arrow and so on fight crime like Batman's way.

I mean...yeah. Hope you aren't trying to be sarcastic, because even Green Arrow is thought of as a poor man's Batman with a bow.

[byrd156]

I mean...yeah. Hope you aren't trying to be sarcastic, because even Green Arrow is thought of as a poor man's Batman with a bow.

I was speaking generally about heroes with out powers and Green Arrow is usual the first one outside of the Bat family I think of. Just because he doesn't use powers doesn't mean he is a poor mans version of a character.

[byrd156]

Yes. I mean, can you think of a "Nightwing" story in the last ten years that shows a marked difference from the Batman way of doing things? From the Batman style of adventure? I mean, I think they were phased out but didn't Nightwing use to actually still use batarangs?

I mean, it's early days on "Grayson" - but making friends with a technologically augmented Russian target-of-hitmen in order to remove his artificial superpowers is a mission that not only would Batman not have gone on, but a tactic that Batman wouldn't have been able to execute.

He actually used Wing-Dings not Batarangs. He didn't make friends with him, he tricked him and used him for a fight he was losing. Also how would have Batman not been able to use that tactic?

[Badou]

Here, though, I have to disagree with you. The Marvel movies have made the idea of spies in a superhero world much more mainstream and accessible. Grayson could easily work in any of these mediums, save (perhaps) an animated series. And in that medium, I could see Spy Grayson succeed in a similar manner as Nightwing/Robin Grayson did: either as a supporting character or as a member of an ensemble. Nightwing never headlined an animated series either, unfortunately.

I don't think Spyral, or any DC agency, has the reach of Marvel's SHIELD though. Marvel was very smart in that they made SHIELD the basis of their universe in a lot of ways. Everything runs though it. DC doesn't really have that (they tried with ARGUS) and Spyral is maybe DC's 4th or 5th most important group. I mean DC has zero plans for Spyral until Seeley pitched them it. If someone else was writing Grayson then Dick would be involved with a different agency. So I am hesitant to believe Spyral will have much impact outside of Grayson, but only time will tell. It's just as Nightwing he could be his own hero, lead a hero team, act as a younger Batman/Spider-man in some city, or even do covert/spy things if needed. With Grayson he sort of is limited to only the spy angle, but maybe over time he can do more even though it is tough with characters like Jason and Tim taking over many of those roles from him. His situation will have to change a lot, but so far it doesn't seem anyone knows how to handle that change.

I think that most of this could be said of Nightwing right after his switch from Robin. Dick's current look, that specific underarmor type shirt, the sneakers, the chest straps and the "G" caribeener, could (in time) become as recognizable as Discowing or Fingerstipes or shortpants. I'll cede the argument that "Grayson" may not sound as cool as "Nightwing," but it may be more recognizable.

The look works for the story they are trying to tell, but it is plain. It doesn't really stand out which fits the type of book they are trying to do, but I don't really see this as a look that will catch on the way a costume would. Maybe I'll be wrong though. I surely wouldn't mind being wrong in all the points I am making, lol.

[The World]

I've always said that the character would have worked a lot better if they had made him more of a Spider-man variant, but aside from his brief stint as a cop they could never give him a personal life anyone gave a **** about. Shame they never really gave the student angle much of a shot.

Anyway, like I said in my previous post, Grayson is limited. The concept really only works in a live action TV show, but Nightwing can work in animated series, animated movies, feature films, games, and TV shows. I mean the Teen Titans and Young Justice shows both showed him move to Nightwing without having to rely on Batman for it. They aren't going to have him go from Robin to Grayson, but probably Robin to Nightwing to Grayson. So it is another step they have to add it.

Though the biggest thing is that Grayson isn't a superhero like Nightwing. That is the biggest challenge. Regardless of how successful Grayson is it isn't as marketable as a superhero name and costume. I mean look at the recent Arkham Knight DLC. It isn't Harleen Frances Quinzel or Jason Todd DLC but Harley Quinn and Red Hood and you can guarantee that people are going to buy figures of their new design, cosplay as it, and so on. Dick Grayson DLC doesn't really have the same kind of ring to it. Another recent example is how Batgirl's new costume made the internet explode. Grayson doesn't have a costume and he doesn't really have anything that makes him stand out, which can hurt in marketing. I mean the biggest reason for superhero names and costumes is for marketing and merchandise, and without those things it can limit a character's exposure. It's why they wanted to put that G on his chest to try and give him something people could recognize a little. Since if you showed a few pages of Grayson to someone not following the book they wouldn't really know who it was supposed to be unless they are told.

At the same time I am not trying to say he should go back to Nightwing despite what I said above. In the New 52 that is a dead end identity that has been gutted of everything that made the identity work. There is no point going back to it, but taking a step back from the New 52 and looking at a larger picture Grayson limits the character's exposure over time I feel. He's just a spy working for Batman rather than his own hero leading his own superhero teams and so on, but I get that it is a tricky situation overall.

*sigh* I had this nice typed of rebuttal...but its gone now. Just completely gone.

So I'll just keep this breif. Where are you getting these beliefs from on Nightwing offer more paths into multimedia. He had 30 years to do so and nothing came of it.

Besides capes and costume are dominating anything. They're getting punished in animation by potty humor shows. They're getting punished in television by meth dealers, fantasy shows, and zombies. Metal Gear Solid (a spy game) will more than likely punish Arkham Knight as will other non supehero games. Hell they're getting punished by foreign comic books like Attack on Titan and One Piece. All they have is movies which even then James Bond, Transformers, and animated movies have been giving them very good competition over the years. James Bond in particular cracked a billion.

Let that sink in. Some MI6 bloke walking walking around in his civvies/tux did better than a good portion of those superhero tales. Add to that he was a spy.

Frankly I don't see what all the hubub is about, Grayson was pretty much a balance between espionage fanfare and classic superhero antics. It literally took elements of two genres which have been very hot right now and mesh them together far better than I could have ever hoped. Not getting where this whole marketability fear is coming from.

As for the comment about cosplay. Look up Attack on Titan; all the characters pretty much wear the same set of slacks, shirt, and jacket (like Dick wears now) yet people cosplay them all the time. It's something people do at cons all the time and the series has a huge following.

[Claude]

He actually used Wing-Dings not Batarangs.

Ah! I thought that maybe he had a different name for them - thanks. And what was the functional and manufacturing difference?

He didn't make friends with him, he tricked him and used him for a fight he was losing. Also how would have Batman not been able to use that tactic?

When has Batman ever used that tactic? Historically, if Batman needs to move someone from A to B he abducts them and moves them himself!

[byrd156]

*sigh* I had this nice typed of rebuttal...but its gone now. Just completely gone.

So I'll just keep this breif. Where are you getting these beliefs from on Nightwing offer more paths into multimedia. He had 30 years to do so and nothing came of it.

Besides capes and costume are dominating anything. They're getting punished in animation by potty humor shows. They're getting punished in television by meth dealers, fantasy shows, and zombies. Metal Gear Solid (a spy game) will more than likely punish Arkham Knight as will other non supehero games. Hell they're getting punished by foreign comic books like Attack on Titan and One Piece. All they have is movies which even then James Bond, Transformers, and animated movies have been giving them very good competition over the years. James Bond in particular cracked a billion.

Let that sink in. Some MI6 bloke walking walking around in his civvies/tux did better than a good portion of those superhero tales. Add to that he was a spy.

Frankly I don't see what all the hubub is about, Grayson was pretty much a balance between espionage fanfare and classic superhero antics. It literally took elements of two genres which have been very hot right now and mesh them together far better than I could have ever hoped. Not getting where this whole marketability fear is coming from.

As for the comment about cosplay. Look up Attack on Titan; all the characters pretty much wear the same set of slacks, shirt, and jacket (like Dick wears now) yet people cosplay them all the time. It's something people do at cons all the time and the series has a huge following.

Those leather Jackets are the uniforms those characters wear in Attack on Titan from what I'm told. I don't watch it so I wouldn't know for sure. Dick is so far the only agent to wear the plain outfit. It's boring and doesn't scream secret agent to me. Also you cant compare an anime and a spy together when they have nothing in common. The thing is, about the marketability is from him being Robin and Nighwing and having a ton of baggage you cant just sweep under a rug even though the New 52 has tried. You can't just start a Grayson spy show if they aren't aloud to have any Bat characters in it other wise its just a spy show with someone named Dick Grayson. Dick has had a pretty strong presence in other media throughout the years in animation, live action, and video games. Batman & Robin, Batman Forever, Young Justice, BTAS, Batman New Adventures, Batman Subzero, Under the Red hood, Justice League New Frontier, Teen Titans, cameos in the Justice League Cartoons, 60's Batman show, Movie, and Comic, Arkham City, BTAS on SNES, just to name a few.

Metal gear has been around for a long time and has a devoted fan base just like Dick Grayson, and Metal Gear has consonantly been great since it began. Arkham Knight will be a fantastic game just Like MGS and I will be getting both of them. Also the in animation department its the networks say so on if a show keeps running like Young Justice on CN. Can you actual show some evidence to these claims you are throwing around?

[byrd156]

Ah! I thought that maybe he had a different name for them - thanks. And what was the functional and manufacturing difference?


When has Batman ever used that tactic? Historically, if Batman needs to move someone from A to B he abducts them and moves them himself!

Wing Dings are just bigger on the edges, Arkham City has my favorite versions of them.

Wait I'm confused what is the tactic we are talking about again?

[Kid A]

I was speaking generally about heroes with out powers and Green Arrow is usual the first one outside of the Bat family I think of. Just because he doesn't use powers doesn't mean he is a poor mans version of a character.

If you're mostly interchangeable with a bigger character in your own stories, you're a poor mans version of said character. And that was the case in most Nightwing stories and some Green Arrow stories, including his most profile incarnation in the Arrow show.

Ironically, Dick was better distinguished from Batman when he was wearing his clothes.

[byrd156]

If you're mostly interchangeable with a bigger character in your own stories, you're a poor mans version of said character. And that was the case in most Nightwing stories and some Green Arrow stories, including his most profile incarnation in the Arrow show.

Ironically, Dick was better distinguished from Batman when he was wearing his clothes.

Thats a very negative way to view comics.

[Badou]

*sigh* I had this nice typed of rebuttal...but its gone now. Just completely gone.

So I'll just keep this breif. Where are you getting these beliefs from on Nightwing offer more paths into multimedia. He had 30 years to do so and nothing came of it.

Besides capes and costume are dominating anything. They're getting punished in animation by potty humor shows. They're getting punished in television by meth dealers, fantasy shows, and zombies. Metal Gear Solid (a spy game) will more than likely punish Arkham Knight as will other non supehero games. Hell they're getting punished by foreign comic books like Attack on Titan and One Piece. All they have is movies which even then James Bond, Transformers, and animated movies have been giving them very good competition over the years. James Bond in particular cracked a billion.

Let that sink in. Some MI6 bloke walking walking around in his civvies/tux did better than a good portion of those superhero tales. Add to that he was a spy.

Frankly I don't see what all the hubub is about, Grayson was pretty much a balance between espionage fanfare and classic superhero antics. It literally took elements of two genres which have been very hot right now and mesh them together far better than I could have ever hoped. Not getting where this whole marketability fear is coming from.

As for the comment about cosplay. Look up Attack on Titan; all the characters pretty much wear the same set of slacks, shirt, and jacket (like Dick wears now) yet people cosplay them all the time. It's something people do at cons all the time and the series has a huge following.

Well first off most of the stuff you are referencing isn't really related to superhero comics. They are just other popular movies, tv shows and video games. You can't compare James Bond to Grayson and say because that is successful this will be successful. Comparing Grayson to the success of other superhero spy type books would be best, and unfortunately spy comic books haven't done all that well or have been adapted much at all in other media. There is a reason why there aren't many on the shelves or high on sales charts from the Big 2. Even good books like Secret Avengers are being overlooked because more traditional superhero Avengers books get most of the attention. I mean if they had relaunched a Nightwing book with him in his blue costume it probably would have sold just as well as Grayson. So Grayson selling well might have been because Dick Grayson is a popular character and they promoted his book a lot rather than the concept being the main reason. Only time will tell. Though I am not saying I wanted him to go back to Nightwing. It is a dead identity in the New 52.

The problem with trying to compare this to James Bond or MGS is that this book and character is entrenched in Batman and DC's world. You need to have those other elements to even use the concept and character. Bond or MGS don't have to worry about that and are based in their own world. Plus they are brands that have been built up over decades. James Bond and Solid Snake are essentially the same as superhero names. They are marketable in the same way Superman, Batman or Robin is marketable. Grayson really isn't. Maybe it will be one day, if they stick with it long enough, but that would take consistent talent being put on his book, which the character has never had.

I guess what I am trying to get at is that in the realm of superhero comics being a superhero allows for more potential exposure than being a spy. Since if you are a superhero you can fill many more roles and have more story options that can be potentially adapted into other media. You aren't as limited. Dick being a superhero, a side kick, leader of the titans and so on all lead to the character getting exposure in many different forms because he had all these roles. Limiting him to just being DC's spy narrows those potential options in the long run.

And I wouldn't say nothing came of him being Nightwing. Dick's been featured as Robin and Nightwing probably in other media more than any other DC character aside from Batman and Superman. Problem he is always the role player and never the star because it is always easier to just reuse Batman as the star.

As for the Attack on Titan cosplay thing, they are all wearing uniforms and not normal clothes. Dick is mostly just wearing black clothes with some blue accents on it. It reminds me a lot of Hawkeye's new costume actually. Even Dick has his escrima sticks like Hawkeye has his bow if you want to compare the two. The big difference is that Hawkeye's book isn't called Clint Barton. It's much easier to market and sell hero names than normal names. Plus Hawkeye is involved in many different roles. He is going on grand space adventures in Avengers books, doing smaller scale agent things in Secret Avengers, and even personal/grounded stories in Hawkeye. That is what the character needs if he is ever going to be more than B-list. Though if Dick was going to be stuck in one role I'd choose Grayson over him in some city by himself being Nightwing, but he still needs to branch out more. Hopefully this "death" plot doesn't drag on too long and he can start doing more. It's already a shame he is missing Eternal and going to Apokolips to help save Damian.