Dick Grayson's new status quo - "permanent," or short-term?

[Dzetoun]

Well first off most of the stuff you are referencing isn't really related to superhero comics. They are just other popular movies, tv shows and video games. You can't compare James Bond to Grayson and say because that is successful this will be successful. Comparing Grayson to the success of other superhero spy type books would be best, and unfortunately spy comic books haven't done all that well or have been adapted much at all in other media. There is a reason why there aren't many on the shelves or high on sales charts from the Big 2. Even good books like Secret Avengers are being overlooked because more traditional superhero Avengers books get most of the attention. I mean if they had relaunched a Nightwing book with him in his blue costume it probably would have sold just as well as Grayson. So Grayson selling well might have been because Dick Grayson is a popular character and they promoted his book a lot rather than the concept being the main reason. Only time will tell. Though I am not saying I wanted him to go back to Nightwing. It is a dead identity in the New 52.

The problem with trying to compare this to James Bond or MGS is that this book and character is entrenched in Batman and DC's world. You need to have those other elements to even use the concept and character. Bond or MGS don't have to worry about that and are based in their own world. Plus they are brands that have been built up over decades. James Bond and Solid Snake are essentially the same as superhero names. They are marketable in the same way Superman, Batman or Robin is marketable. Grayson really isn't. Maybe it will be one day, if they stick with it long enough, but that would take consistent talent being put on his book, which the character has never had.

I guess what I am trying to get at is that in the realm of superhero comics being a superhero allows for more potential exposure than being a spy. Since if you are a superhero you can fill many more roles and have more story options that can be potentially adapted into other media. You aren't as limited. Dick being a superhero, a side kick, leader of the titans and so on all lead to the character getting exposure in many different forms because he had all these roles. Limiting him to just being DC's spy narrows those potential options in the long run.

And I wouldn't say nothing came of him being Nightwing. Dick's been featured as Robin and Nightwing probably in other media more than any other DC character aside from Batman and Superman. Problem he is always the role player and never the star because it is always easier to just reuse Batman as the star.

As for the Attack on Titan cosplay thing, they are all wearing uniforms and not normal clothes. Dick is mostly just wearing black clothes with some blue accents on it. It reminds me a lot of Hawkeye's new costume actually. Even Dick has his escrima sticks like Hawkeye has his bow if you want to compare the two. The big difference is that Hawkeye's book isn't called Clint Barton. It's much easier to market and sell hero names than normal names. Plus Hawkeye is involved in many different roles. He is going on grand space adventures in Avengers books, doing smaller scale agent things in Secret Avengers, and even personal/grounded stories in Hawkeye. That is what the character needs if he is ever going to be more than B-list. Though if Dick was going to be stuck in one role I'd choose Grayson over him in some city by himself being Nightwing, but he still needs to branch out more. Hopefully this "death" plot doesn't drag on too long and he can start doing more. It's already a shame he is missing Eternal and going to Apokolips to help save Damian.

There is certainly a lot to complain about, it's true. Lots of things have been done badly. And no one knows what will work, it's true. I have doubts about the viability of some of the new plot points, myself. Yet, I have a hard time thinking that such complete and total refusal to be happy accords with the actual facts. A year ago people were complaining that Dick never got a highly-regarded creative team. He has. People complained DC never tried anything new and daring and different with the character. They have. People complained that DC would never shield Dick from crossovers. They are. People complained Dick's book would never have a fun, enjoyable tone. It does. Now the complaint seems to be that Dick is not being set up for other media, yet the book's creators speak in terms of seasons and shows, the CCO of the company is touting the direction as exciting, and TV Guide gives it a feature.

So,okay, if you were writing the character, what would you do? That is if they handed you the keys, so to speak. Now, I am just talking about a Dick Grayson comic in the New 52. No talk of changing the universe and bringing back the old continuity. What would you do that a writer or, for that matter, an editor or even a group editor actually could do? If Grayson isn't the answer, what is?

[OWL45]

There is certainly a lot to complain about, it's true. Lots of things have been done badly. And no one knows what will work, it's true. I have doubts about the viability of some of the new plot points, myself. Yet, I have a hard time thinking that such complete and total refusal to be happy accords with the actual facts. A year ago people were complaining that Dick never got a highly-regarded creative team. He has. People complained DC never tried anything new and daring and different with the character. They have. People complained that DC would never shield Dick from crossovers. They are. People complained Dick's book would never have a fun, enjoyable tone. It does. Now the complaint seems to be that Dick is not being set up for other media, yet the book's creators speak in terms of seasons and shows, the CCO of the company is touting the direction as exciting, and TV Guide gives it a feature.

So,okay, if you were writing the character, what would you do? That is if they handed you the keys, so to speak. Now, I am just talking about a Dick Grayson comic in the New 52. No talk of changing the universe and bringing back the old continuity. What would you do that a writer or, for that matter, an editor or even a group editor actually could do? If Grayson isn't the answer, what is?

I completely agree with you everything you are saying.

[dropkickjake]

I don't think Spyral, or any DC agency, has the reach of Marvel's SHIELD though. Marvel was very smart in that they made SHIELD the basis of their universe in a lot of ways. Everything runs though it. DC doesn't really have that (they tried with ARGUS) and Spyral is maybe DC's 4th or 5th most important group. I mean DC has zero plans for Spyral until Seeley pitched them it. If someone else was writing Grayson then Dick would be involved with a different agency. So I am hesitant to believe Spyral will have much impact outside of Grayson, but only time will tell. It's just as Nightwing he could be his own hero, lead a hero team, act as a younger Batman/Spider-man in some city, or even do covert/spy things if needed. With Grayson he sort of is limited to only the spy angle, but maybe over time he can do more even though it is tough with characters like Jason and Tim taking over many of those roles from him. His situation will have to change a lot, but so far it doesn't seem anyone knows how to handle that change.

Spyral almost certainly won't be the far-reaching, all encompassing entity that SHIELD is. DC has seemed to be pushing ARGUS into that role, which is fine. All that really matters, as far as Grayson's media potential goes, is that the public is familiar with the idea of spies operating in a world with masked superheroes. SHIELD has introduced the public to that concept in a huge way. Spyral doesn't need to be SHIELD doppelganger. If it were it would just feel like a cheap copy.


The only truly limited part of the Grayson concept I can see is that would NEED to be set in a universe populated with superheros. It couldn't be like Gotham or Arrow or Smallville. I don't that that is a HUGE problem either though.

[gwangung]

I guess what I am trying to get at is that in the realm of superhero comics being a superhero allows for more potential exposure than being a spy. Since if you are a superhero you can fill many more roles and have more story options that can be potentially adapted into other media. You aren't as limited. Dick being a superhero, a side kick, leader of the titans and so on all lead to the character getting exposure in many different forms because he had all these roles. Limiting him to just being DC's spy narrows those potential options in the long run.

And I wouldn't say nothing came of him being Nightwing. Dick's been featured as Robin and Nightwing probably in other media more than any other DC character aside from Batman and Superman. Problem he is always the role player and never the star because it is always easier to just reuse Batman as the star.

I think these two statements contradict each other a bit. Dick's never been the star because he is functionally the same as Batman. He doesn't have a unique role and the flexibility you tout actually works against that if that's a major feature.

What you want is something that allows that flexibility to contribute to the role that he plays. I don't think espionage is as limiting as you think.

[byrd156]

I think these two statements contradict each other a bit. Dick's never been the star because he is functionally the same as Batman. He doesn't have a unique role and the flexibility you tout actually works against that if that's a major feature.

What you want is something that allows that flexibility to contribute to the role that he plays. I don't think espionage is as limiting as you think.

Dick has always been a star at least to everyone in universe pre-52. He may not have had a constant 5 star writing team but it has always been pretty consistent and some times thats just good enough. Just because he is like Batman doesn't mean anything. People still read Captain Marvel (yes I know his name is Shazam now but I refuse to call him that) but they can also like Superman.

[Dzetoun]

This doesn't speak to the appeal of Dick Grayson, or Grayson, across multiple media, but it does possibly pertain to the appeal of Grayson and Spyral across different titles. The DC Weeklies Panel at San Diego Comic Con has announced that Dick Grayson will be a character in the Worlds End weekly that begins in October. This is the weekly that spins out of Earth 2 and possibly sets up the background to the Futures End weekly. Now, they do not specify that it is Prime Earth Dick Grayson to whom they are referring, so I suppose it's possible that this may be the Earth 2 version of the character. Still, here is the panel report:

http://live.bleedingcool.org/2014/07...ies-sdcc-2014/

[Dzetoun]

To follow up, CBR's reporting makes it pretty clear this will be the Earth 2 Dick Grayson, although it doesn't say anything about this versions age or backstory:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=54373

The Earth 2 characters seem to skew either younger or older depending on plot needs, so there are any number of things they can do. They could, if they wanted to go the older route, use the Batman Beyond veteran Grayson version, which seems to be popular with some fans. I suppose a lot depends on whether they want to make use of the Earth 2 Grayson in the future. It would probably be easier to work a younger Grayson (say the age of Prime Earth Grayson or younger) into future stories, whereas an older version seems more likely to get killed off to sell the weekly's plotline. Of course, the Crisis event next year may end up simply erasing Worlds End and resetting Earth 2 regardless.

[Kid A]

Dick has always been a star at least to everyone in universe pre-52. He may not have had a constant 5 star writing team but it has always been pretty consistent and some times thats just good enough. Just because he is like Batman doesn't mean anything. People still read Captain Marvel (yes I know his name is Shazam now but I refuse to call him that) but they can also like Superman.

Consistently mediocre writing is never good enough.

[Godlike13]

Ehh, the real problem with Nightwing is that at some point Dick as a character stopped progressing with Nightwing. In large part due to DC own complacency, and their lack of interest in doing much with him as Nightwing. Not to mention them only wanting to put mostly mediocre talent on him, despite being in demand by other creators they deemed too big for him, but whatever. It is what it is.
Even as a spy though, i have a hard time seeing how Dick connection to Bruce will stop being a selling point for him. He's a legacy character. He Batman's protege, the first sidekick. Sure it can be a double edge sword, but don't see them dropping that from his character. Though why should they, he doesn't have to be bigger than Batman to succeed.

Btw am i the only one who watched YJ and the TT cartoons. Hell, believe it or not he almost even has his own CW show once upon a time, and another cartoon. So all this talk about how the cartoons, TV shows, and such never came. I don't know about that. There been some things, and there's been interest.

[byrd156]

Consistently mediocre writing is never good enough.

What is good comic? Your definition is different from mine, as long as it progresses the character's development big or small and is entertaining that's all I need. I don't need Dick going off and saving the universe and finding the meaning of life or something.

Ehh, the real problem with Nightwing is that at some point Dick as a character stopped progressing with Nightwing. In large part due to DC own complacency, and their lack of interest in doing much with him as Nightwing. Not to mention them only wanting to put mostly mediocre talent on him, despite being in demand by other creators they deemed too big for him, but whatever. It is what it is.
Even as a spy though, i have a hard time seeing how Dick connection to Bruce will stop being a selling point for him. He's a legacy character. He Batman's protege, the first sidekick. Sure it can be a double edge sword, but don't see them dropping that from his character. Though why should they, he doesn't have to be bigger than Batman to succeed.

Btw am i the only one who watched YJ and the TT cartoons. Hell, believe it or not he almost even has his own CW show once upon a time, and another cartoon. So all this talk about how the cartoons, TV shows, and such never came. I don't know about that. There been some things, and there's been interest.

Yeah his show was going to be called Grayson and was going to be about Haly's Circus. I don't get why people are saying he hasn't appeared in anything. Hell he probably has more appearances in different series and media than Green Lantern or other big Leaguers.

[Dzetoun]

Ehh, the real problem with Nightwing is that at some point Dick as a character stopped progressing with Nightwing. In large part due to DC own complacency, and their lack of interest in doing much with him as Nightwing. Not to mention them only wanting to put mostly mediocre talent on him, despite being in demand by other creators they deemed too big for him, but whatever. It is what it is.

Chuckle. Well, if it is what it is, why bother with it at all? If DC is really that out of touch and oblivious (and I certainly agree they are sometimes not the best at either planning or execution, just look at the bungled transition from Nightwing to Grayson) what accounts for the sudden movement on the character? Is it the grace of Geoff Johns? Is it just dumb luck that a series of events forced the Batman Office to set up and take notice? You seem to regard the Batman Office with cynicism and the belief that the only possible response to their failures with Dick Grayson or anything else is just to shrug and move on because nothing will do any good. And I would agree that at least cynicism is sometimes warranted. Yet, something shook them out of their complacency this time. Something got them moving, and got them working hard with the character, as much of a hash as they have admittedly made of some things. What was it?

Even as a spy though, i have a hard time seeing how Dick connection to Bruce will stop being a selling point for him. He's a legacy character. He Batman's protege, the first sidekick. Sure it can be a double edge sword, but don't see them dropping that from his character. Though why should they, he doesn't have to be bigger than Batman to succeed.

Oh, I would go farther than that. They won't drop the legacy aspect from his character because it would destroy the essence of his background. After all, what's really important to know about Dick Grayson's backstory? The circus? The Flying Graysons? No, not really. And even in the old continuity, the Teen Titans and the Bludhaven years weren't absolutely essential, either (which is not the same as saying they were unimportant). The important thing in his background is that he was raised and trained by Batman. All the stuff with the Flying Graysons and the circus pretty much just functions, from a narrative point of view, to get him to Wayne Manor. Remove that, and the essence of the character is crippled.

Btw am i the only one who watched YJ and the TT cartoons. Hell, believe it or not he almost even has his own CW show once upon a time, and another cartoon. So all this talk about how the cartoons, TV shows, and such never came. I don't know about that. There been some things, and there's been interest.

But, if you are really interested in making Dick Grayson an A-list character, as the creators at least have claimed they are (and I see no reason to think they are lying) then being a member of a cartoon team doesn't get you there, at least if you were not considered A-list already, and "almost" having a show or a cartoon doesn't get you anywhere. Whatever success Nightwing had, it simply was not good enough for that purpose.

[Godlike13]

Chuckle. Well, if it is what it is, why bother with it at all? If DC is really that out of touch and oblivious (and I certainly agree they are sometimes not the best at either planning or execution, just look at the bungled transition from Nightwing to Grayson) what accounts for the sudden movement on the character? Is it the grace of Geoff Johns? Is it just dumb luck that a series of events forced the Batman Office to set up and take notice? You seem to regard the Batman Office with cynicism and the belief that the only possible response to their failures with Dick Grayson or anything else is just to shrug and move on because nothing will do any good. And I would agree that at least cynicism is sometimes warranted. Yet, something shook them out of their complacency this time. Something got them moving, and got them working hard with the character, as much of a hash as they have admittedly made of some things. What was it?

I don't know. Inevitability probably. They finally came to a point where they had to think up of something different and new to do with him, because all his fallbacks were already being utilized and repurposed for other characters, while at the same time now they basically have multiple Nightwing's running around. The fact that it took them so long to really try something new, besides making him Batman, and that it only happened after they effectively killed Nighwing, and were quit frankly left with no other options but to finally try and come up with a new idea for him, kind of speaks volumes about my point.

And hey how many time have u said that this was basically dropped on the Bat office, and they had to then deal with what Johns did. Doesn't that kind of say something right there.

And u say the transition from Nightwing to Grayson was bungled, no, do u want to know what was really bungled. And this is gonna be a mini rant here, so fair warning. What they really bungled was transition from Batman back to Nightwing. They did absolutely nothing to carry any momentum from his time as Batman. In fact he ended up coming out with less they he had going in. They had no real idea for a direction, they pillage all his safety nets and connections, put on him a writer who had just a few credits under his belt and an artist who couldn't even put back to back issues out, and basically just had them buy time between Batman events. Yet still Nightwing was one of DC's most consistent sellers, despite it arguably being one of their least supported books (All things consider). But what, thats on "Nightwing", and lack of interest in Nightwing by an audience?

And its not cynicism, honestly im just done. It is what it is. Im tire of bitching about Nightwing's plate, and how DC apparently sees Nightwing compare to how fans see Nightwing. Ive just accepted it. When they announced Dick was going back to Nightwing i went on rant upon rant, over how i did not want Dick to go back to being Nightwing, cause i knew it was going be just like before. That we'd get a no name to mediocre creative team on Nightwing, and Nightwing would see the bare minimum needed for him to sustain. Which is pretty much exactly what happen. But Higgins seems like a nice guy, so i tried to give it a chance, and because i generally do enjoy Nightwing, i tried really hard to convince myself that the series was batter than it was. But honestly, it never had a chance.

So screw it, bring on Grayson. I fully support it, because its something i wanted to see for years. Something different and unexpected, them actually taking a chance with the character for a change. Kind of sucks they had to effectively kill Nightwing, but like ive said before, with all the Nightwings they basically now have, it'll probably do Nightwing good to go away right not. Also kind of sucks that his Titans history and connection are now gone, but whatever, whats gone is gone, and i don't want to see him falling back on any of his usual fall backs anyway. Ive side it before, history doesn't make a character.

But to try to pin this on that there is something inherently wrong with Nightwing or something, or that Dick as a super spy isn't gonna face similar challenges. Come on now guys. Its not quite that simple.

Oh, I would go farther than that. They won't drop the legacy aspect from his character because it would destroy the essence of his background. After all, what's really important to know about Dick Grayson's backstory? The circus? The Flying Graysons? No, not really. And even in the old continuity, the Teen Titans and the Bludhaven years weren't absolutely essential, either (which is not the same as saying they were unimportant). The important thing in his background is that he was raised and trained by Batman. All the stuff with the Flying Graysons and the circus pretty much just functions, from a narrative point of view, to get him to Wayne Manor. Remove that, and the essence of the character is crippled.

At the very core, the elements in his background that are most important is one of the same elements thats important about Bruce's back story, that his parents were murdered, and then yes that Bruce took him him in and he became Robin. Like is said being Batman's protege, and the first sidekick is a selling point for him. And a big one. Hell its part of what gravitated me to the character. But that means he's always gonna be connected to Batman, and that can at times become a challenge for the character. He's never going to be bigger than Batman, but thats ok.

And not to demean history. History helps to connect readers, but again, history is not what makes up a character. Characteristics, personality, and certain core elements is what makes Dick, Dick. To me anyway. Ive certainly connected with his Titan history, and his Bludhaven days, but i agree. Neither necessarily makes or break him. He can be Dick with out it. An example of this is by looking at him, and other character even, when they are done in other medias. Could the same be said with his connection to Batman, and being Robin, i don't know.

But, if you are really interested in making Dick Grayson an A-list character, as the creators at least have claimed they are (and I see no reason to think they are lying) then being a member of a cartoon team doesn't get you there, at least if you were not considered A-list already, and "almost" having a show or a cartoon doesn't get you anywhere. Whatever success Nightwing had, it simply was not good enough for that purpose.

Its certainly helps. Its exposure. Creators can't just make an A-list character, even though i quite like the ambition, but it takes time and lots of exposure. Being a member of a cartoons team, and interest outside of just comic all help a good deal. Thats why it is going to be hard to make Super spy Grayson bigger than Nightwing, because Nightwing has a 30 year head start, with some legs out side of just comics. Might not have had his Arrow, but theres interest shown.

Look im all for them trying with Grayson, but im not convinced super spy is gonna over take Nightwing in the end. Though quite frankly i don't care, Dick Grayson is already "A-list" to me, and im at a point where they could call him banana man for all i care as long as its good. I just wanna see some effort, and have some generally good and exciting comics to read with Dick. Which right now they are doing, so im over the moon.

[Darkness Fatale]

This is giving me a headache.

Robin grew and became Nightwing = I don't know if fans complained about it or not because I wasn't born during the time of Nightwing's first appearance
Nightwing became Batman (DickBats) = fans complained endlessly because they believe Bruce should be the only Batman
Flash forward Nu52, Nightwing is back = fans complained that it's as if Dick Grayson was demoted after such a successful run as Batman
Nightwing becomes Agent Grayson = endless endless complains and rants that Dick should only be Nightwing

Know what?
Scr3w it all. I fully support Dick Grayson's new direction as a Spyral Agent and I'm seriously hoping that it becomes long term, provided that the quality is consistent to the excitement I felt the time I finished reading Grayson #1.

I'm a Dick Grayson fan, and that encompasses the roles and masks he wore --- not just Nightwing.

[Kid A]

What is good comic? Your definition is different from mine, as long as it progresses the character's development big or small and is entertaining that's all I need. I don't need Dick going off and saving the universe and finding the meaning of life or something.

A good comic is where exciting developments are happening, not just going through generic vigilante superhero motions every issue.

[LoneNecromancer]

A good comic is where exciting developments are happening, not just going through generic vigilante superhero motions every issue.

Yeah really. I must've said this enough times on the old board.

Whenever you open a Nightwing comic you know exactly what you are going to get, a by-the-numbers street-level superhero comic bereft of any real creativity or ambition, striving to be just "decent" or "above average".