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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Default Why are they no new Iconic characters at Marvel?(or in comics)

    In looking for modern takes on the Superhero genre I came across what isn't a very big secret. They aren't many if any modern heroes that stand on the same level as the best of the past. The modern era in comics hasn't created one character you can say stands on the same level as Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Wonder Woman, Captian America,etc. Iron Man and Wolverine have pushed their way into convo and Deadpool, Black Panther and say Harley Quinn are creeping into the picture . Nothing seems to be close to obvious big ones in comics. Now Manga has some huge stars in Naturo and Goku who have some of the elements but don't have reach as the iconic silver and gold age characters.


    So what do think is the cause of this because classic heroism always sticks around imo stories of Heracles, Robin Hood, King Arthur still stick out. Shouldn't there be modern stories and heroes that resonate in this era like those in past?
    Is the focus on old heroes blocking the new heroes? When they revamp some older characters are we missing out on original characters? Because some revamp are so extreme if they didn't have a similar look you would think they are different characters.

    Or I am missing something and they are heroes that are approaching those iconic guys when they get a little more exposure in this nerd friendly media hero heavy era and they will blow up after older hero crush is over. Who do you think is next hero that could make the leap if they were given the right push?

    ***
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 08-08-2018 at 01:50 AM.

  2. #2
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    You answered this pretty much for yourself. The old guard is in the way or rather their fans are. As soon as new characters arrive they will be compared to characters who have decades of Backstories and who were huge deals back when comics were a bigger deal in general.But really the problem is that most people don't WANT new characters. Someone who has been reading comics for 20-30 years definitely has their favourites set.
    Nowadays you'll have to make characters huge via the movies to get a whole new fanbase that hasn't made up it's mind yet.
    Someone like Kamala Khan who already is a breakout character in her own right could get a huuuuge following via a good movie.
    With the avengers side of things coming to a natural end in the MCU I guess it's not unlikely that we'll get to see something like that.
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  3. #3
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Double post. My mobile browser really doesn't work well with the forum lately.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
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  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Being an icon takes time, so of course many of the new characters aren't considered icons yet.
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  5. #5
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    It has a lot to do with what both Crimz and Matternativ has sad. However, I feel it has a lot more to do with several "new" characters aren't all that new at all. Instead being the same character with a different paint job. Regardless of how anyone feels about her, good or bad, Ms. Marvel caught on so well because she is a brand new character with her own story to tell. She may be using someone else is name but she is her own hero.

    Many of the new characters today can't say that. And the few that can have to many concepts that can be compared to an already existing hero that did well. ( Looking at you Sideways)

    For a new character to become Iconic in todays world you really need to bring something completely fresh to the table.
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  6. #6
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    It has a lot to do with what both Crimz and Matternativ has sad. However, I feel it has a lot more to do with several "new" characters aren't all that new at all. Instead being the same character with a different paint job. Regardless of how anyone feels about her, good or bad, Ms. Marvel caught on so well because she is a brand new character with her own story to tell. She may be using someone else is name but she is her own hero.

    Many of the new characters today can't say that. And the few that can have to many concepts that can be compared to an already existing hero that did well. ( Looking at you Sideways)

    For a new character to become Iconic in todays world you really need to bring something completely fresh to the table.
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  7. #7
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    I actually don't think new characters are blocked by older characters nor do I think older fans have that big a blocking effect either.

    I think it's more consumerism generally nowadays.

    Most of the massive characters come from the 60's or earlier. A few like Deadpool, harlequin or Punisher (to a lesser extent) somewhat later.

    No one blocked these. But they didn't impact on existing styles or characters. Your not going to become an icon if you play on what's gone before too much. Imo too many new characters, especially at marvel in recent years have been running on older an characters idea because, I feel, the creative have either tried to create a sense of legacy or just didn't have a better idea. If you compare that to DC's legacy they were generally brought on from charas ready built into that mythos from years of story, like the original teen titans. Just look at how well jane foster did as the lead in thors book, superb numbers, character was built on a long established connection. Sure there were some detractors but the numbers don't lie. She could certainly maintain this interest imo. You can't bring in a character in the short term and piggy back them onto a legacy, this I feel, was the mistake jade with Riri in iron mans book. Moved too soon into the forefront, no legacy built.


    If a totally brand new character is to break out and become iconic, they by necessity need to bring something new to the table. Kamala has done this, and I think she will be viewed as iconic if she isn't already.

    I also think it's how consumerism works nowadays. There's lots of options out there, in many formats. A comic book new character isn't the same news as it was in the gold or silver ages, there's a lot more food at the buffet so to speak. This is true even compared to say the 90s.

    Do some older fans resent established characters being outshone or replaced (say) by new ones that are built on those older characters if the older character looks dismissed or damaged by it, sure some do. But that's human nature, no one wants to lose their toys. It's a fine balance but it can be done. Look at how wally replaced barry, Barry had a truly heroic death, Wally was well linked to barry and he worked yo take up the mantle. And it was written as difficult for him to do so. But has dc done that so well in recent years, not that I see. I think it's the market of how we consume generally.

    I haven't bought a spiderman book since one more day, as far as I'm concerned they took away the character I grew up with. I'm much more interested in reading about miles.

    I guess I'm saying old fans blocking isn't the real issue, it's how legacy is handled that is, when it comes to building on a established idea.

    And when it's a totally brand new idea, that's in real hard times generally, look at how many tv shows run out of steam.

    sorry for the ramble
    Last edited by kilderkin; 08-08-2018 at 03:12 AM.

  8. #8
    Baby Thanos Member catbellysqueezer's Avatar
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    I think it's because all the good gimmicks are taken. Pretty much all of the iconic heroes have their unique special power that is easy to identify.
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  9. #9
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    I feel like many new characters don't have great storylines either. The characters may be enjoyable but the actual stories seem to be middle of the road for a lot of them.

    If you want to make a character memorable or stand out then doing a great story that people will remember or talk about in years to come would be a start. Also don't just do the lazy kill off a character for shock value or reveal character 'x' is a villain and think that alone makes compelling stories.

    It doesn't matter if it is a epic storyline with world ending stakes or a intimate character driven story with personal stakes. Making something that makes you care about the characters and their world is going to go a long way in making a new character someone people will remember.

  10. #10
    Son of Satan DevilBat66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Being an icon takes time, so of course many of the new characters aren't considered icons yet.
    Yeah people tend to forget that it took decades of comics before any of those characters became "icons". Hell, I'd even say that comics didn't have that much to do with it.

    Superman and Batman had radio shows but it wasn't until they hit the tv waves, and then syndication, before they really started becoming super popular. I'd say they didn't even become "icons" until after they had movies.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilBat66 View Post
    Yeah people tend to forget that it took decades of comics before any of those characters became "icons". Hell, I'd even say that comics didn't have that much to do with it.

    Superman and Batman had radio shows but it wasn't until they hit the tv waves, and then syndication, before they really started becoming super popular. I'd say they didn't even become "icons" until after they had movies.
    This is very important to remember

    until recently many of the mcu characters were not very well known beyond the comics hobby itself

    Batman, superman had big films years ago

    the hulk, Wonder Woman and superman had tv shows

    Spider-Man had a hugely popular cartoon, as did the x men

    And at the time this was happening there wasn't much other comic related stuff for the wider audience

    now there's lots of films, iron mans popular but before his movie, not so much

    Within the literature itself, anything new has a lot yo fight against just yo get noticed, how many people say they dislike a favourite characters current book, but still read it not going for a newer title

    there's only so much money in people's pockets, books are not cheap vs the time to read or against other media forms

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilBat66 View Post
    Yeah people tend to forget that it took decades of comics before any of those characters became "icons". Hell, I'd even say that comics didn't have that much to do with it.

    Superman and Batman had radio shows but it wasn't until they hit the tv waves, and then syndication, before they really started becoming super popular. I'd say they didn't even become "icons" until after they had movies.
    This is very important to remember

    until recently many of the mcu characters were not very well known beyond the comics hobby itself

    Batman, superman had big films years ago

    the hulk, Wonder Woman and superman had tv shows

    Spider-Man had a hugely popular cartoon, as did the x men

    And at the time this was happening there wasn't much other comic related stuff for the wider audience

    now there's lots of films, iron mans popular but before his movie, not so much

    Within the literature itself, anything new has a lot yo fight against just yo get noticed, how many people say they dislike a favourite characters current book, but still read it not going for a newer title

    there's only so much money in people's pockets, books are not cheap vs the time to read or against other media forms

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    This is very important to remember

    until recently many of the mcu characters were not very well known beyond the comics hobby itself

    Batman, superman had big films years ago

    the hulk, Wonder Woman and superman had tv shows

    Spider-Man had a hugely popular cartoon, as did the x men

    And at the time this was happening there wasn't much other comic related stuff for the wider audience

    now there's lots of films, iron mans popular but before his movie, not so much
    Yeah, that's my first thought too. Even the old-school characters aren't really 'iconic'. Back in the 90's, Marvel had no idea what to do with Iron Man. They trapped him in the armor, They paralyzed him, gave him a remote control suit, made him go evil, replaced him with the teen version of himself... the only issues that really sold were when they introduced a 'brand new set of armor'. Then they rebooted him with the Onslaught thing and still nobody cared.


    RDJ wasn't playing an iconic character. He was playing a C-list character that nobody cared about... and then MADE it Iconic. Now Tony rules the world and is the center of every storyline. Captain America wasn't much better. They kept trying all sorts of the things to find something that stuck and caught the public's attention. Same with Black Panther. He's been around forever, but just finally getting some spotlight. Same with Cyclops. He was the leader forever, but nobody really cared. It took a magneto turn and M-day to raise his popularity


    Superman and Batman were contuinously selling even after the Superhero craze ended in the 50's, and have been published for 80 years straight... they're pretty iconic. Everyone else tends to flounder around as the tide goes. Wolverine and the Punisher... and now Deadpool and Harley are the closest you can get to 'new iconic'...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilBat66 View Post
    Yeah people tend to forget that it took decades of comics before any of those characters became "icons". Hell, I'd even say that comics didn't have that much to do with it.

    Superman and Batman had radio shows but it wasn't until they hit the tv waves, and then syndication, before they really started becoming super popular. I'd say they didn't even become "icons" until after they had movies.
    Exactly right

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Being an icon takes time, so of course many of the new characters aren't considered icons yet.
    This really does need to be remembered

    And most of the iconic characters appeared when superheroes were fresh and new for a lot of people

    Even with the arrival of the marvel characters in the 60s many of the older ones like batman who had been around were still fairly obscure because a lot of the books had been pulped already ( hence their current rareity)

    But whilst people will always say older fans are blocking them, how realistic is this argument, no fan can actually do that in all seriousness, sure they might not buy them or say they don't like them, but that's not actually gonna stop quality coming through

    Icon status took time and to an extent a novelty of character that just doesn't exist and to an extent cannot exist anymore ( at least within the big two easily)

    I think a character breaking out like say Spiderman or wolverine or such highly unlikely within the books themselves, the sales for the hobby just are not there, but maybe through tangential media, like say miles with his animated movie

    And in fairness I think this was the case back in the day too, a lot of the iconic s from the golden age became so through cinema serials (batman and robin, WW, superman's films, brought them out of the books and into the general home audience) earlier radio shows, TV , cartoons, even Spidey did with his cartoon and the hulk with his TV show

    Heck the X-Men became household names off a cartoon for a good few of them

    As the MCU moves away from avengers this I think will help
    Last edited by kilderkin; 12-22-2019 at 06:44 PM.

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