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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Default Why are they no new Iconic characters at Marvel?(or in comics)

    In looking for modern takes on the Superhero genre I came across what isn't a very big secret. They aren't many if any modern heroes that stand on the same level as the best of the past. The modern era in comics hasn't created one character you can say stands on the same level as Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Wonder Woman, Captian America,etc. Iron Man and Wolverine have pushed their way into convo and Deadpool, Black Panther and say Harley Quinn are creeping into the picture . Nothing seems to be close to obvious big ones in comics. Now Manga has some huge stars in Naturo and Goku who have some of the elements but don't have reach as the iconic silver and gold age characters.


    So what do think is the cause of this because classic heroism always sticks around imo stories of Heracles, Robin Hood, King Arthur still stick out. Shouldn't there be modern stories and heroes that resonate in this era like those in past?
    Is the focus on old heroes blocking the new heroes? When they revamp some older characters are we missing out on original characters? Because some revamp are so extreme if they didn't have a similar look you would think they are different characters.

    Or I am missing something and they are heroes that are approaching those iconic guys when they get a little more exposure in this nerd friendly media hero heavy era and they will blow up after older hero crush is over. Who do you think is next hero that could make the leap if they were given the right push?

    ***
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 08-08-2018 at 01:50 AM.

  2. #2
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    You answered this pretty much for yourself. The old guard is in the way or rather their fans are. As soon as new characters arrive they will be compared to characters who have decades of Backstories and who were huge deals back when comics were a bigger deal in general.But really the problem is that most people don't WANT new characters. Someone who has been reading comics for 20-30 years definitely has their favourites set.
    Nowadays you'll have to make characters huge via the movies to get a whole new fanbase that hasn't made up it's mind yet.
    Someone like Kamala Khan who already is a breakout character in her own right could get a huuuuge following via a good movie.
    With the avengers side of things coming to a natural end in the MCU I guess it's not unlikely that we'll get to see something like that.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
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  3. #3
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Double post. My mobile browser really doesn't work well with the forum lately.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

    Matt's Stuff [Blog]: Fire Emblem Three Houses Campaigns & Characters - R A N K E D

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Being an icon takes time, so of course many of the new characters aren't considered icons yet.
    Get the INVISIBLE WOMAN mini OUT NOW!


    Also check out : The Invisible Woman Appreciation thread!

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    It has a lot to do with what both Crimz and Matternativ has sad. However, I feel it has a lot more to do with several "new" characters aren't all that new at all. Instead being the same character with a different paint job. Regardless of how anyone feels about her, good or bad, Ms. Marvel caught on so well because she is a brand new character with her own story to tell. She may be using someone else is name but she is her own hero.

    Many of the new characters today can't say that. And the few that can have to many concepts that can be compared to an already existing hero that did well. ( Looking at you Sideways)

    For a new character to become Iconic in todays world you really need to bring something completely fresh to the table.
    The Human Rocket Nova Prime Appreciation Thread: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...reciation-2019

    Explain The Appeal ~ Hawkman: http://community.comicbookresources....73#post3725173

    Idea's Open Discussion And Growth. Silencing Idea's Confirms Them To Be True In The Minds Of Those Who Hold Them. The Attempt Of Eliminating Idea's Proves You To Be A Fool.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    It has a lot to do with what both Crimz and Matternativ has sad. However, I feel it has a lot more to do with several "new" characters aren't all that new at all. Instead being the same character with a different paint job. Regardless of how anyone feels about her, good or bad, Ms. Marvel caught on so well because she is a brand new character with her own story to tell. She may be using someone else is name but she is her own hero.

    Many of the new characters today can't say that. And the few that can have to many concepts that can be compared to an already existing hero that did well. ( Looking at you Sideways)

    For a new character to become Iconic in todays world you really need to bring something completely fresh to the table.
    The Human Rocket Nova Prime Appreciation Thread: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...reciation-2019

    Explain The Appeal ~ Hawkman: http://community.comicbookresources....73#post3725173

    Idea's Open Discussion And Growth. Silencing Idea's Confirms Them To Be True In The Minds Of Those Who Hold Them. The Attempt Of Eliminating Idea's Proves You To Be A Fool.

  7. #7
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    I actually don't think new characters are blocked by older characters nor do I think older fans have that big a blocking effect either.

    I think it's more consumerism generally nowadays.

    Most of the massive characters come from the 60's or earlier. A few like Deadpool, harlequin or Punisher (to a lesser extent) somewhat later.

    No one blocked these. But they didn't impact on existing styles or characters. Your not going to become an icon if you play on what's gone before too much. Imo too many new characters, especially at marvel in recent years have been running on older an characters idea because, I feel, the creative have either tried to create a sense of legacy or just didn't have a better idea. If you compare that to DC's legacy they were generally brought on from charas ready built into that mythos from years of story, like the original teen titans. Just look at how well jane foster did as the lead in thors book, superb numbers, character was built on a long established connection. Sure there were some detractors but the numbers don't lie. She could certainly maintain this interest imo. You can't bring in a character in the short term and piggy back them onto a legacy, this I feel, was the mistake jade with Riri in iron mans book. Moved too soon into the forefront, no legacy built.


    If a totally brand new character is to break out and become iconic, they by necessity need to bring something new to the table. Kamala has done this, and I think she will be viewed as iconic if she isn't already.

    I also think it's how consumerism works nowadays. There's lots of options out there, in many formats. A comic book new character isn't the same news as it was in the gold or silver ages, there's a lot more food at the buffet so to speak. This is true even compared to say the 90s.

    Do some older fans resent established characters being outshone or replaced (say) by new ones that are built on those older characters if the older character looks dismissed or damaged by it, sure some do. But that's human nature, no one wants to lose their toys. It's a fine balance but it can be done. Look at how wally replaced barry, Barry had a truly heroic death, Wally was well linked to barry and he worked yo take up the mantle. And it was written as difficult for him to do so. But has dc done that so well in recent years, not that I see. I think it's the market of how we consume generally.

    I haven't bought a spiderman book since one more day, as far as I'm concerned they took away the character I grew up with. I'm much more interested in reading about miles.

    I guess I'm saying old fans blocking isn't the real issue, it's how legacy is handled that is, when it comes to building on a established idea.

    And when it's a totally brand new idea, that's in real hard times generally, look at how many tv shows run out of steam.

    sorry for the ramble
    Last edited by kilderkin; 08-08-2018 at 03:12 AM.

  8. #8
    Baby Thanos Member catbellysqueezer's Avatar
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    I think it's because all the good gimmicks are taken. Pretty much all of the iconic heroes have their unique special power that is easy to identify.
    Baby Thanos

  9. #9
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    I feel like many new characters don't have great storylines either. The characters may be enjoyable but the actual stories seem to be middle of the road for a lot of them.

    If you want to make a character memorable or stand out then doing a great story that people will remember or talk about in years to come would be a start. Also don't just do the lazy kill off a character for shock value or reveal character 'x' is a villain and think that alone makes compelling stories.

    It doesn't matter if it is a epic storyline with world ending stakes or a intimate character driven story with personal stakes. Making something that makes you care about the characters and their world is going to go a long way in making a new character someone people will remember.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Okay couple more question

    1.Shouldn't we have see at least one by now I mean 50/60s You have Superman,Batman,etc 70s Punisher,Wolverine 90s Spawn,Deadpool, Hellboy 2000s er uhmm.....Even if the old guard is in the way shouldn't we have seen a couple more by now.

    2.If books need time. What about Older new entries as I will call them like Black Panther,Green Lantern and Iron Man why haven't they approached that Higher level yet? Do you think that Iron Man who is having amazing popularity now can jump that next tier of Icon? Is he already there now?

    3. Also what about improving on proven formula ,Deadpool improves(or is a variation) of the Wolverine formula. You can say Goku,One punch or All Might are improvements on Superman formula are all fairly popular. DC right now is trying interesting experiment with new characters who are their version of marvel characters like Spiderman, Hulk, Fantastic Four,Black Widow, etc. Shouldn't improving on the formula and adapting it for era get more notice from fans? Do you think sticking with tradition makes us miss out on great stuff because comic companies have no interest in putting A level creative teams on new stuff?

    4. Lastly do you think companies playing it safe is the another reason we don't have a break out yet. Ms Marvel, Spider Gwen and Pool,Miles Morales or Wally West. Do think if they careful craft these characters as original characters from the beginning we might have next icons?

  11. #11
    Mighty Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    They aren't given a chance.

    Manyof the Initiative characters should have become Avengers, but they were just Limboed.

    Vox should have been fleshed out, for example.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member danielsan52's Avatar
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    They aren't given a chance.

    Manyof the Initiative characters should have become Avengers, but they were just Limboed.

    Vox should have been fleshed out, for example.

  13. #13
    iMan 42s
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Okay couple more question

    1.Shouldn't we have see at least one by now I mean 50/60s You have Superman,Batman,etc 70s Punisher,Wolverine 90s Spawn,Deadpool, Hellboy 2000s er uhmm.....Even if the old guard is in the way shouldn't we have seen a couple more by now.

    2.If books need time. What about Older new entries as I will call them like Black Panther,Green Lantern and Iron Man why haven't they approached that Higher level yet? Do you think that Iron Man who is having amazing popularity now can jump that next tier of Icon? Is he already there now?

    3. Also what about improving on proven formula ,Deadpool improves(or is a variation) of the Wolverine formula. You can say Goku,One punch or All Might are improvements on Superman formula are all fairly popular. DC right now is trying interesting experiment with new characters who are their version of marvel characters like Spiderman, Hulk, Fantastic Four,Black Widow, etc. Shouldn't improving on the formula and adapting it for era get more notice from fans? Do you think sticking with tradition makes us miss out on great stuff because comic companies have no interest in putting A level creative teams on new stuff?

    4. Lastly do you think companies playing it safe is the another reason we don't have a break out yet. Ms Marvel, Spider Gwen and Pool,Miles Morales or Wally West. Do think if they careful craft these characters as original characters from the beginning we might have next icons?
    1. We did, it's just that these things take time to take off. Ms.Marvel is a great example of this and Miles Morales is getting his own movie in December. Miles as of this point is one to watch because should the movie do well it's going to reshape the public perception of Spider-man significantly.

    2. Iron man is a massive draw. It's toyline for the second film was notorious for how successful it was to the point that it had to be pulled from store shelves to allow new product to move. Iron man is already there, it's basically been since arguably 2010 but also 2012 with the release of Avengers. Iron man is a globally recognized brand that people can see the chest light and know immediately what's up. It's not to say that Iron man wasn't recognizable, but before the films he didn't have this widespread popularity. The brand is there already with the character being embraced world over. A good movie really can do that. Black Panther is in the same position Iron man was, and so should the success be kept, Black Panther is going to become another icon.

    3. You can improve on a formula sure, but sometimes it's just making the book work that's more important. Comics are written months in advance and much of the time writers don't know out of the gate what to do with these properties and so they may play it safe until they know what they want. Marvel however does put A level talent on new books but also keep in mind that it's not all encompassing. Some writers just aren't suited for the job. Riri Williams, a "break out" star of Invincible Iron man is one of the worst examples of this where the book got turned it into a "stealth" Riri solo and it fell on it's ass. The thing is however is that there is an audience for Riri, it's just that her inception came in the absolute worst place and timing. Sometimes despite what the shareholders and or writers might want, the market itself will reject with an open palm slap. Timing and place is that important and much of the market hadn't cared much for that lately as the movies became as successful as the billion dollar franchises they now are.

    4. No. Wally West's whole deal was built on his surpassing over Barry Allen as legacy likewise with Miles Morales to Peter Parker. They are both true examples of legacy characters done right and should stay that way. As well as some characters just aren't designed for that, some just are derivative either to be derivative or have some odd reason for it. Blood Spider is a derivative Spider-man themed villain, but we don't care because it's presented in a way it doesn't matter.
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  14. #14
    Fantastic Member KingsLeadHat's Avatar
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    I think you have several factors working here in terms of the comics industry.

    1. The most iconic characters have backstories that masterfully interweave classical hero myth and world religion with modernity. There is something that appeals to most readers when this is done right on an almost primal, subconscious level. I also think that the best creators from the Golden and Silver Age had a better grasp on classical myth and weren't constrained by the trappings of postmodernism in their interpretations, allowing them to create characters with an almost universal appeal.

    2. Modern creators have learned from the past. Who in their right mind would come up with a really great idea and just give it to Marvel and DC nowadays, potentially handing them a billion dollar property for free? The chances of creating a Superman, or Batman or Spider-Man are slight in the first place, but when there is no financial impetus to do so, and with modern creators having far more options, it's even less likely to happen.

    3. I think from a creative standpoint, modern creators seem generally to be, "characterization first, concept second." Jack Kirby was a fountain of brilliant idea after brilliant idea, often playing off the same themes and characterizations that he used in the past, while modern creators seem to want to focus on the nuance of character interaction. Just looking at the most successful creator owned books, you have a lot of interesting characters with more nuanced psychologies, but none of them are exactly setting the world on fire or have the potential to appeal "kids of all-ages." I think that's the key; Jack Kirby was creating characters that he hoped would appeal to 12 year old's and 12 year old's at heart; modern creators often seem to be creating strictly for themselves (nothing wrong with that, just a different methodology) and or their friends. Adults, even if they like a character, rarely become passionate and obsessive about a character in the same way that an impressionable kid can. Once you spark the imagination of a generation of young readers by creating a character that they latch on to emotionally, you stay with a lot of them for the rest of their lives.

  15. #15
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    They aren't given a chance.

    Manyof the Initiative characters should have become Avengers, but they were just Limboed.

    Vox should have been fleshed out, for example.
    A mixed roster title of long established superheroes alongside some of the Initiative newbies might of sold with some good creative team and direction. Seems like that is what Marvel were trying to do with All-New, All-Different Avengers

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