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  1. #16
    Son of Satan DevilBat66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Being an icon takes time, so of course many of the new characters aren't considered icons yet.
    Yeah people tend to forget that it took decades of comics before any of those characters became "icons". Hell, I'd even say that comics didn't have that much to do with it.

    Superman and Batman had radio shows but it wasn't until they hit the tv waves, and then syndication, before they really started becoming super popular. I'd say they didn't even become "icons" until after they had movies.
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  2. #17
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    I can't find the quote, but Brian Bendis once something to the effect that creators are too reluctant to do to a new character what they do to older characters - namely, change them around and do things with them that their creators never intended.

    Almost any popular Big Two character has been through things that would never have occurred to the original creators. Or they go through a cycle where they're taken far away from what they originally were and then someone else tries to bring them "back to basics," like Batman. Deadpool is an example of a character who would never have become popular if he had just remained what Rob Liefeld originally intended him to be. She-Hulk started out as a weak character and a silly idea, but John Byrne found a completely new approach to her that made her a good character, and other people have built on Byrne by doing things he would never have done, etc.

    But what happens a lot is that a new character becomes so associated with the creator's version that other creators are reluctant to mess with it. And that means a character can't really grow and may be in trouble after the original creator leaves. The big test for Ms. Marvel will be what happens when Willow Wilson is ready to move on; she might remain a good character but not if people just keep trying to do what Wilson did.

    Bendis said that was why he added the Sentry to the Avengers: he wanted to see if he could take a new character, created by someone he knew (Paul Jenkins) and see if he could be as comfortable changing a new character as he was with, say, Luke Cage. It didn't succeed in making the Sentry iconic but I see his point. A Marvel or DC character is really the sum of all the creators' approaches to them; they're iconic because people keep getting them "wrong."

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilBat66 View Post
    Yeah people tend to forget that it took decades of comics before any of those characters became "icons". Hell, I'd even say that comics didn't have that much to do with it.

    Superman and Batman had radio shows but it wasn't until they hit the tv waves, and then syndication, before they really started becoming super popular. I'd say they didn't even become "icons" until after they had movies.
    This is very important to remember

    until recently many of the mcu characters were not very well known beyond the comics hobby itself

    Batman, superman had big films years ago

    the hulk, Wonder Woman and superman had tv shows

    Spider-Man had a hugely popular cartoon, as did the x men

    And at the time this was happening there wasn't much other comic related stuff for the wider audience

    now there's lots of films, iron mans popular but before his movie, not so much

    Within the literature itself, anything new has a lot yo fight against just yo get noticed, how many people say they dislike a favourite characters current book, but still read it not going for a newer title

    there's only so much money in people's pockets, books are not cheap vs the time to read or against other media forms

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilBat66 View Post
    Yeah people tend to forget that it took decades of comics before any of those characters became "icons". Hell, I'd even say that comics didn't have that much to do with it.

    Superman and Batman had radio shows but it wasn't until they hit the tv waves, and then syndication, before they really started becoming super popular. I'd say they didn't even become "icons" until after they had movies.
    This is very important to remember

    until recently many of the mcu characters were not very well known beyond the comics hobby itself

    Batman, superman had big films years ago

    the hulk, Wonder Woman and superman had tv shows

    Spider-Man had a hugely popular cartoon, as did the x men

    And at the time this was happening there wasn't much other comic related stuff for the wider audience

    now there's lots of films, iron mans popular but before his movie, not so much

    Within the literature itself, anything new has a lot yo fight against just yo get noticed, how many people say they dislike a favourite characters current book, but still read it not going for a newer title

    there's only so much money in people's pockets, books are not cheap vs the time to read or against other media forms

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilderkin View Post
    This is very important to remember

    until recently many of the mcu characters were not very well known beyond the comics hobby itself

    Batman, superman had big films years ago

    the hulk, Wonder Woman and superman had tv shows

    Spider-Man had a hugely popular cartoon, as did the x men

    And at the time this was happening there wasn't much other comic related stuff for the wider audience

    now there's lots of films, iron mans popular but before his movie, not so much
    Yeah, that's my first thought too. Even the old-school characters aren't really 'iconic'. Back in the 90's, Marvel had no idea what to do with Iron Man. They trapped him in the armor, They paralyzed him, gave him a remote control suit, made him go evil, replaced him with the teen version of himself... the only issues that really sold were when they introduced a 'brand new set of armor'. Then they rebooted him with the Onslaught thing and still nobody cared.


    RDJ wasn't playing an iconic character. He was playing a C-list character that nobody cared about... and then MADE it Iconic. Now Tony rules the world and is the center of every storyline. Captain America wasn't much better. They kept trying all sorts of the things to find something that stuck and caught the public's attention. Same with Black Panther. He's been around forever, but just finally getting some spotlight. Same with Cyclops. He was the leader forever, but nobody really cared. It took a magneto turn and M-day to raise his popularity


    Superman and Batman were contuinously selling even after the Superhero craze ended in the 50's, and have been published for 80 years straight... they're pretty iconic. Everyone else tends to flounder around as the tide goes. Wolverine and the Punisher... and now Deadpool and Harley are the closest you can get to 'new iconic'...

  6. #21
    Mighty Member Jesse-James's Avatar
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    Isn't Ms. Marvel (Kamala) kindo a new iconic character?

  7. #22
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Because the ony new characters are replacement so of older characters and aren’t very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse-James View Post
    Isn't Ms. Marvel (Kamala) kindo a new iconic character?
    No. They try to pretend she is, but sales have been below cancellation levels for a long time. She has no recurring villains. And no real depth. If you try to describe her without mentioning her ethnicity and religion, she’s generic as can be. She’s hasn’t learned anything or evolved in any way since her introduction.
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  8. #23
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse-James View Post
    Isn't Ms. Marvel (Kamala) kindo a new iconic character?
    I haven't seen her utterly saturate the market either. There hasn't been just a glut of lunchboxes, backpacks, toys and figures of every shape and size, puzzles, shoes... whatever. I've been substituting Elementary school for two years and haven't seen any kids wearing her, talking about her or pretending to be her.

    I know she had some appearances on the Disney marvel avengers and they're hoping she'll take off, but she's not there yet.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    It would take massive amounts of marketing and good stories for that to happen.

    A lot of newer characters also get shuffled out every 5-10 years so they don't get much of a chance.
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  10. #25
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    It would take massive amounts of marketing and good stories for that to happen.

    A lot of newer characters also get shuffled out every 5-10 years so they don't get much of a chance.
    I don't think it's something you can really plan. No amount of marketing is going to make something that sucks automatically appeal a whole generation. But every once in a while, something will stand out and get latched on to. Wolverine wasn't anything special. Just another loner with a mysterious past... but then he was suddenly the most popular character marvel had.

    There have been a lot of fads and obsessions that are showing up on backpacks after one season of cartoons. Lego movie, Ninjago, Stephen Universe, Ben 10... they don't have nearly the power as some of Marvel and DC's new characters... but kids love them.

    Teen Titans Go is a phenomenon right now... and yes, Teen Titans have been around for 30+ years, but that show is NOT feeding off the nostalgia. That franchise was dead more often then it was not.... but now Cyborg and Starfire are household names... It's tough to say what will and won't be lightning in a bottle.

  11. #26
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    No. They try to pretend she is, but sales have been below cancellation levels for a long time. She has no recurring villains. And no real depth. If you try to describe her without mentioning her ethnicity and religion, she’s generic as can be. She’s hasn’t learned anything or evolved in any way since her introduction.
    You're only looking at print sales. Her trades sell well at bookstores and she does well digitally too - you won't find those sales figures in Comichron's reports.

    Her appearances in Champions and before that Avengers don't usually mention her religion at all. Do you think she's just standardised leader in Champions, like Cyclops in X-Men?
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  12. #27
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    You're only looking at print sales. Her trades sell well at bookstores and she does well digitally too - you won't find those sales figures in Comichron's reports.
    Her only trade that sells well is Vol. 1 and we don’t have any numbers for digital sales, so we don’t know how much of an impact that would be or what the real numbers are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Her appearances in Champions and before that Avengers don't usually mention her religion at all. Do you think she's just standardised leader in Champions, like Cyclops in X-Men?
    In Champions, nearly every character has interchangeable dialogue and personalities. I don’t think that makes a better case that she’s a good character.
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  13. #28
    non-super & non-hero jump's Avatar
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    I'd say there's more to Ms Marvel than being a minority. She's a fangirl trying to be a hero and I've seen a few times when those ideas of a hero are put up against her actual hero which don't match and having to make her own choices as well as doing the tween drama thing of friends & family similar to how Spider-Man was in the 60s.
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  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Ms Marvel is not an Icon but she is on track for it, She is only new creation I have seen have the right type of buzz for the 2000s, Miles and Ghost Spider have a little juice as well but the main character Spiderman kinda blocks them in a sense with his popularity.While Ms Marvel is something completely different from Captain Marvel. She has Champions and her solo, was in the Avengers main book. She was in the Avengers cartoon and now Marvel Rising. Plus Kevin Feige said she on their movie radar and basically they are waiting on Captain Marvel before doing stuff with her which makes sense .Mindy Kaling, Riz Amhed, Kumail Nanjiani all want part of the movie project. She will have high enough profile for a while and when she hit live action realm we will learn how much juice she really has to offer. She isn't a lock I mean look at Static Shock these things can be derailed.

  15. #30
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jump View Post
    I'd say there's more to Ms Marvel than being a minority. She's a fangirl trying to be a hero and I've seen a few times when those ideas of a hero are put up against her actual hero which don't match and having to make her own choices as well as doing the tween drama thing of friends & family similar to how Spider-Man was in the 60s.
    The goofy fangirl thing is really only a surface trait that doesn’t remotely compare to the depth Peter Parker had in the equivalent amount of time. Kamala Khan has nothing that motivates her. No underlying philosophy driving her do do good. Four years into Spider-Man’s creation, a majority of his biggest foes had already been created. Kamala has no significant enemies. No hardships. And she hasn’t developed as a character one iota. If you want to see a good contrast of Kamala’s Khan and Peter Parker, look at the brief descriptions on Comics Vine.

    “A shape-shifting Muslim Pakistani-American teenager from New Jersey, who becomes the newest holder of the Ms. Marvel identity.”

    “Peter Parker was bitten by a radioactive spider as a teenager, granting him spider-like powers. After the death of his Uncle Ben, which he could have prevented, Peter learned that "with great power, comes great responsibility." Swearing to always protect the innocent from harm, Peter Parker became the Amazing Spider-Man!”

    The Spider-Man quote could’ve been written after his first issue. Kamala has now had over 50 solo issues and several other appearances. Still can’t come up with a better descriptor than that.
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