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  1. #106
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    Old Comic fans: We want new characters
    Also old Comic fans: we want to read our old guard

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    Being an icon takes time, so of course many of the new characters aren't considered icons yet.
    This really does need to be remembered

    And most of the iconic characters appeared when superheroes were fresh and new for a lot of people

    Even with the arrival of the marvel characters in the 60s many of the older ones like batman who had been around were still fairly obscure because a lot of the books had been pulped already ( hence their current rareity)

    But whilst people will always say older fans are blocking them, how realistic is this argument, no fan can actually do that in all seriousness, sure they might not buy them or say they don't like them, but that's not actually gonna stop quality coming through

    Icon status took time and to an extent a novelty of character that just doesn't exist and to an extent cannot exist anymore ( at least within the big two easily)

    I think a character breaking out like say Spiderman or wolverine or such highly unlikely within the books themselves, the sales for the hobby just are not there, but maybe through tangential media, like say miles with his animated movie

    And in fairness I think this was the case back in the day too, a lot of the iconic s from the golden age became so through cinema serials (batman and robin, WW, superman's films, brought them out of the books and into the general home audience) earlier radio shows, TV , cartoons, even Spidey did with his cartoon and the hulk with his TV show

    Heck the X-Men became household names off a cartoon for a good few of them

    As the MCU moves away from avengers this I think will help
    Last edited by kilderkin; 12-22-2019 at 06:44 PM.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilBat66 View Post
    Yeah people tend to forget that it took decades of comics before any of those characters became "icons". Hell, I'd even say that comics didn't have that much to do with it.

    Superman and Batman had radio shows but it wasn't until they hit the tv waves, and then syndication, before they really started becoming super popular. I'd say they didn't even become "icons" until after they had movies.
    Exactly right

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    When it comes to the bigger publishers, it seems much of the creativity is gone. The artistic utilization of comic books as a visual medium seems to be a lost art form. What was once a visual medium for artistic expression is now just a platform that Twitter pseudo-intellectuals use to validate their ideologies with self-insert characters and soulless symbols given form as "newer and better" heroes. All the while, these writers are seemingly in an eternal ego stroking contest, trying to convince themselves that they truly are the visionary artists of the industry. Yet so much of what goes into a comic nowadays is completely uninspired and lazy. The coloring, penciling, inking, characters, story, panel layouts and contents, concepts, designs, and more--all of it has just lost so much of the heart it once had; it all seems so procedural now. Compare the first 10 issues of Spawn to even something recent like House of X. You can't tell me House of X has more heart in it than Spawn--you just can't. You'd be hard-pressed to find any modern series that has the same magic that many pre-2000's series had. Now, it's not to say it's all bad. There is the odd diamond in the rough, as it were, but such series are few and far between; fewer still are worthy of icon status. I doubt we'll ever see an icon come out of this age.
    Someone would have to have access (meaning a store has to SELL a copy) and actually READ the book to even think that.

    Some would argue House of X has more heart because it bought back folks (who are STILL not sniffing usage-Synch).
    Some would argue Spawn has more heart because it actually told the story a man of color (for the most part) without "agendas" and spawned spinoffs that Black Panther is just now getting to.

    Of course Spawn, Savage Dragon and others can get away with stuff that Marvel books can't.
    Savage Dragon did a Wally West and have the son follow the father and have a family. Then have a storyline commenting on illegal aliens with the Dragon living in Canada.
    A Marvel book would get TORCHED if it tried that-mainly by those who don't read the book.

    Also for all the cries of "we want new characters that don't take over for others-the track record says something different.

    Sam Wilson as Cap America lasted 25 issues and avoided below 20K for the most part. Sam as Falcon lasted 8 issues.
    Luke Fox as Batwing did so bad even hardcore Batman fan sites refused to cover it. I bet he won't SNIFF below 50K as Batman soon.

    You cry about legacies if you won't stock the book nor read the book. Marvel and Dc know what they can get away with. For all that crying-those legacies got shelf space. While the the guys like Mosaic did not but still found readers as trades.

  5. #110
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    Maybe a better question would be which "new" characters have the best chance at becoming iconic?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Maybe a better question would be which "new" characters have the best chance at becoming iconic?
    New? Someone from the "Champions" era so to speak Miles, Kamala,Gwenpool, X-23, Ghost Spider, etc. Why? They are getting the push beyond comics in TV shows and cartoons. Which increase the chance that Marvel push them again later on in their character span.

    Who has the best chance in general to become Iconic characters who are pretty popular in general and are finally getting their push on the big stage so Black Panther, Captain Marvel, She Hulk, Moon Knight, Spectrum, Scarlet Witch,Black Widow,etc. Why? They are being used on the largest stage and they have a chance to become important to Marvel in a larger way which means Marvel will push them as important stories and events.

    I think sustain popularity/ longviety + at some point High spikes of extreme popularity +(line wide pushes or story importance from a company) is what make characters Iconic.

  7. #112
    Incredible Member ARkadelphia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    just gonna leave this here for ya.

    Love this guy
    “Tell me, are you an Avenger now? The brand is not what it once was” - Mr. Sinister, Uncanny X-Men (2019) #19

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by HipHopAvenger View Post
    Old Comic fans: We want new characters
    Also old Comic fans: we want to read our old guard
    You're trying to frame this as a contradiction but it isn't.
    Wanting new characters around doesn't mean people want the older characters gone.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    You're trying to frame this as a contradiction but it isn't.
    Wanting new characters around doesn't mean people want the older characters gone.
    Most comic book readers are from the 90's, and they want that feeling of nostalgia. "Newer" readers will just watch the movies, shows, or read manga. Readers don't want new things. They just want the old characters refurbished time and time again.

    I don't think old fans want new characters. They want their characters in new stories like what they are getting right now. That's why they stopped complaining.

  10. #115
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Because achieving iconic status takes time. Very few characters become household names right out of the gate. A generation from now people are going to be whimsical about Miles and Kamala. People forget that not even the first iteration of the X-Men was a top seller.

    Moreover, timing is everything. If there is a need for a certain character, and they are released during a time where they fill that need, then that certainly helps. Cap outsold Time Magazine when he first came out, because a lot of people were very angry about what was going on in Europe and America's initial non-stance on that. The Punisher (and Wolverine) came out during a time when, post-Vietnam, a lot of people were disillusioned and angry because of that war, the overall sentiment of the public was very cynical, like the characters themselves. Batman was born of the rise of organized crime following (and because of) the Prohibition.

    Also, there is nothing inherently wrong with loving an older character and wanting new stories for them. That's indigenous to literature and serial storytelling. Most publishers would kill for the rights to an IP that can continue to sell for decades. Sherlock Holmes. Nancy Drew. Jason Bourne. James Bond. Jack Ryan. Harry Potter (although the creator of this particular IP needs to learn to keep her terrible, bigoted opinions to herself or her empire might very well fall). To name a few. Marvel is a business and the goal of any business is to generate profit. They're very fortunate to have this absolutely amazing catalog of IPs that have remained beloved for decades. It would be ridiculous not to bank on it. The trick is finding a balance between maintaining the old while also introducing the new, something Miles and Kamala highlight beautifully.

  11. #116
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Also, forgot to add, that ideally a publisher/producer/studio needs to hit all four quadrants (and those quadrants are male, female, over 25 and under 25) for something to be considered a hit/iconic. It's not a matter of old fans against new, as many in this thread seem to believe, ideally a publisher/studio wants BOTH.

    Once again, Marvel is a business, and the goal of a business is to generate the maximum amount of profit.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    New? Someone from the "Champions" era so to speak Miles, Kamala,Gwenpool, X-23, Ghost Spider, etc. Why? They are getting the push beyond comics in TV shows and cartoons. Which increase the chance that Marvel push them again later on in their character span.

    Who has the best chance in general to become Iconic characters who are pretty popular in general and are finally getting their push on the big stage so Black Panther, Captain Marvel, She Hulk, Moon Knight, Spectrum, Scarlet Witch,Black Widow,etc. Why? They are being used on the largest stage and they have a chance to become important to Marvel in a larger way which means Marvel will push them as important stories and events.

    I think sustain popularity/ longviety + at some point High spikes of extreme popularity +(line wide pushes or story importance from a company) is what make characters Iconic.
    Forgot about some of those. Miles certainly is on the road to becoming iconic. X-23 is the last breakout X-Men character made (IMHO), although it does seem like Marvel hasn't capitalized on her as well as it could've.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    You're trying to frame this as a contradiction but it isn't.
    Wanting new characters around doesn't mean people want the older characters gone.
    True this

    I really think marvel didn't get that in some key areas, or at least thought this was the case especially during anad

    There's aspects of this recently with DC too

    There has always been the potential for a happy balance, in many ways now more than ever with so many more ways to bump interest in a character

    For me marvel messed up some new character pushes because they promoted then as replacements for older ones, at least superficialy even if the books themselves didn't, strategicly this would be a mistake,

    I feel

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    New? Someone from the "Champions" era so to speak Miles, Kamala,Gwenpool, X-23, Ghost Spider, etc. Why? They are getting the push beyond comics in TV shows and cartoons. Which increase the chance that Marvel push them again later on in their character span..
    Hmm. I think you are confusing "Iconic" with "popular". Some of those characters are popular and over time may become very popular (I like some of them myself) but Iconic is a completely different beast and I will confidently predict that none of them will ever be iconic.

    Think of how many comics characters have been created in the past 50 years and now think of how many characters are genuinely iconic. The % is miniscule, and that's because iconic is very rare to achieve. It isnt something that happens to a new bunch of characters once the "old guard" moves on, it isnt somethingf that periodically happens. It takes a very difficult to achieve set of circumstances.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdventureBliss View Post
    Hmm. I think you are confusing "Iconic" with "popular". Some of those characters are popular and over time may become very popular (I like some of them myself) but Iconic is a completely different beast and I will confidently predict that none of them will ever be iconic.

    Think of how many comics characters have been created in the past 50 years and now think of how many characters are genuinely iconic. The % is miniscule, and that's because iconic is very rare to achieve. It isnt something that happens to a new bunch of characters once the "old guard" moves on, it isnt somethingf that periodically happens. It takes a very difficult to achieve set of circumstances.
    This. Look at the popularity poll. Only the top 10 of either company (DC or Marvel) can be said to be iconic.

    https://www.cbr.com/top-100-dc-marve...s-master-list/

    And they've existed since the start or a few decades within.
    This is unlikely to change.

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