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  1. #151
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    Here some other views over the years talking about legacy,mantles and diversity.
    by KidStranglehold
    I OFFICIALLY take back everything I said about Marvel's diversity push. With them giving non-white characters titles that use to belong to white characters. For example the Hulk or Iron man. Before I thought it was lazy on Marvel's push when they should be pushing the minority characters they ALREADY HAVE But... JESUS CHRIST..... Reading through Comicvine that site has become the comicbook site for alt righters. I hope Marvel keeps doing what they are doing to make these clowns angry. Who needs readers like them? I'm sorry of this post is dramatic.
    Lastly you can tell its not just about white characters turning non-white. No they just dont wanna see non-white characters at all! With them constantly complaining about the Black Panther film.
    http://community.comicbookresources....The-MU/page257
    _________________
    Sutekh quote-
    Indeed, it was the early 'diversity push' that resulted in the creation of characters like Storm and Cyborg that led to the biggest sales numbers seen in my lifetime, and, I'm sure, there was some Archie Bunker-type complaining about why there had to be a black person shoved down their throat on the Teen Titans or X-Men.
    http://community.comicbookresources....SPOILERS/page9
    _________________
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Sure, MM totally didn't seem like an afterthought, that's why for 50 years he didn't get a single long-lasting standalone book. Compare MM's treatment over the years to the way even the "secondary" original members like Aquaman or Flash have been treated and he starts to looks like an afterthought very fast.
    You're correct about Marvel, as compared to DC's treatment of Cyborg, they absolutely treated minority characters like Sam or Miles much better, but often at the expense of their "classic" characters and alienated lots fans in the process. In any event, Cyborg could "fit" the JL just as good as J'onn did, as long as DC made the effort to do so. It's just a shame they seemingly didn't give it much thought sooner than they did.
    I'm also curious what would happen post-Rebirth. Is Vic still going to be a founding JL member, Wally did remember him when he was trapped in the speed force. If his TT past is restored, would they just put him in the Titans book and bring J'onn back to the JL.
    I'm also curious what would happen post-Rebirth. Is Vic still going to be a founding JL member, Wally did remember him when he was trapped in the speed force. If his TT past is restored, would they just put him in the Titans book and bring J'onn back to the JL.
    _____________
    Quote Originally Posted by BradleyFan
    I prefer Marvel's way to DC's way any day of the week. Comic fans will always be upset about something being changed from the status quo. And if you add a nonwhite character to the mix, they'll get even more upset. When Cyborg was first brought onto the Justice League, people said over and over again that his inclusion was "forced" and "stupid" and DC was just trying to be PC, and those were the exact same comments that people said about Miles, and Sam Wilson and and Kamala Kahn, and all the other nonwhite heroes.
    The difference between Cyborg and the others? The others were pushed to the forefront and supported regardless of Comic fans' disapproval. People are going to have a problem with nonwhite heroes, no matter how you introduce them. And if you work to ensure that you're customer base is comfortable with these new nonwhite heroes, the property you're trying to support won't get any support at all. Marvel may have alienated some fans, but I like that they're working hard to make their property inclusive.
    Honestly, if those comic fans don't want these minority heroes taking the mantles of established white heroes, they should be the ones buying books like Cyborg...
    Cyborg a-k-a Vic Stone Appreciation
    http://community.comicbookresources....!!!!!!/page159
    _______________

    Last edited by mace11; 12-25-2019 at 04:24 AM.

  2. #152
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    Here is someone else view on cho and legacy talk a few years at cbr.

    Amadeus Cho is the new hulk by Tien Long
    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Hey all. I posted this in another thread, so I apologize in advance if you've already read this. Still, I think there's relevance to this particular thread: Well, I don't know if I'll say that Amadeus becoming a Hulk is totally awesome, I'm still quite excited to see Amadeus as a Hulk. As I've mentioned in a previous thread, I'm looking forward to the title not only because of Greg Pak's writing, but also because, as an Asian-American, I'm glad to see an Asian-American get the spotlight. It's my hope that people start to see Asian-Americans as being cool, hip, and snarky. As for this question of replacements and diversity, well, I can understand the various levels of frustration behind it. Being comic book fans, I think we're all resistant to change, especially when the formula still works. Characters like Steve Rogers, Bruce Banner, Thor Odinson, Peter Parker, etc., have shown (and continue to show) a wealth of story potential. Like many posters here, I had these characters being my heroes and they still are. Moreover, for those who say that these characters are boring and people are tired of seeing the same old "white, heterosexual, male" character, I will respectfully disagree. Many of my young Chinese students here in Hong Kong LOVE these characters. I can tell you of the MANY times when my 5 year old kids kept on writing and drawing nothing but a Steve Rogers Captain America. Thus, I think we should remember that when we talk of diversity, we should start off by saying that there isn't anything wrong with the words "white", "heterosexual", or "male." Characters who have had these traits have exemplified qualities that go beyond race, gender, or sexuality. They have exemplified qualities that can better an individual and better the world. I believe it is these admirable qualities that we should look for in all character. HOWEVER, the world is becoming more diverse. While someone who is not white, heterosexual, and/or male may find Steve Rogers to be appealing, finding someone who is like you, and more importantly, in a position of importance and power, can be even more fulfilling. Additionally, it can highlight a character who has always been in the background and perhaps give them a push. Thus, I'm alright with characters being replaced PROVIDED that the former character is in a good place. Steve Rogers and Thor Odinson may not be Captain America or Thor anymore, but they're still around and have a significant role. It appears the same will happen with Bruce Banner. Finally, will Amadeus Cho be Hulk forever? Will Bruce Banner be gone from being the Hulk? For me, there are various levels of gradation. Ideally, Amadeus and Bruce can both be Hulk. But I'm alright with Bruce becoming Hulk again since Amadeus' time as Hulk could help to elevate him. When Amadeus goes back to being just Amadeus, he's a bit more visibility and credibility. The same could be said if Sam Wilson becomes Falcon or Jane Foster stops being Thor. And I'm also alright with Amadeus staying the Hulk, as long as Bruce is in a good place. Anyway, just my two cents on the matter.
    Last edited by mace11; 12-25-2019 at 04:22 AM.

  3. #153
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    This was from a few years ago as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by nnelg View Post
    It is forced diversity. If Marvel thought Jane Foster, Falcon, X-23, Amadeus Cho, and the new female in Ironman(I do not know her name because I always hated Ironman and don't read the book.) then their solo wouldn't be called Thor, Captain America Wolverine, Hulk and soon to be Ironman. Let's not forget they named Thunderbolt Ross's book Red Hulk. The book probably would've tanked if it was named anything else. Look at all the team books named Avengers. If they weren't named Avengers then they probably wouldn't last a year. Remember New Warriors? Marvel's longest running solos are Thor, Ironman, Captain America, Spider-Man, Hulk and Wolverine. Which means these characters have the largest fan base. So when there are changes to the characters we complain. People remember the clone saga and still talk about how bad it was.
    Quote Originally Posted by penthotal View Post
    Actually, the fact that they choose to use their biggest brands to tell these stories shows how serious they are about it. A Thor or Iron Man book will always sell more than a New Character one, so the run will last longer and more readers will be exposed to the character, helping it acquire a larger fanbase. Also, media wouldn't care the same way for New Black / Female Character while they talk extensively about a black Cap or female Thor, this way the 259.700.000 americans that don't read comic books get to know of the existence of these characters, and someone maybe even start buying them. From a commercial and communication point of view it's the most solid plan they could have come up with, and no company is allowed to make their business plans without thinking about economics and communication, it's just how the world works.It's not even true they don't believe in original diverse characters, there are pushing a lot of them. Black Panther, Power Man & Iron Fist, Nighthawk, Moongirl and Devil Dinosaur, Ms. Marvel, Squirrel Girl, Hellcat, Mockingbird etc.
    I think forum readers are a bit exaggerated in their reactions to this matter, honestly. So we had a year and half of Sam Cap before having both of them. We will have a couple of years of Jane as Thor before having both of them. Peter and Miles always coexisted and nobody has been left without their favorite hero. The same will happen with Tony Stark and Riri. The two Wolverine book have both good sales, while the original Wolverine was burn out as a character and failed three relaunch in a row, when it will come back it will it will probably able to make decent sales again.
    In the long run, Marvel strategy seems to be more sensible than the one proposed by fans and it's not like it will take decades to have both original and legacy characters coexist, we are almost already there. And nobody is forcing anyone, everyone remains free of buying the book they like and ignore the others.
    _____________
    Quote Originally Posted by nnelg View Post
    It is because it is? That is funny. So its okay to complain about a character being replaced as long as you don't mention the reason for the change? Considering the real problem is with the people complaining about the lack of diversity NOT BUYING the books they claim they want. Guess who are buying Wolverine, Thor, Hulk, Captain America and soon the new Ironman books? The fans of Logan, Thor, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers and Tony Stark. Where was this support for diversity when Storm, Warmachine! Sif and all of the other "non white males" titles that Marvel kept trying to sell for years? It obviously wasn't there otherwise those books wouldn't have been canceled. How many times did Warmachine get canceled? I guess if Marvel would've renamed him Ironman people would have been on the bandwagon. So if I am to understand you correctly we(fans of Marvels most popular characters) are supposed to prop the diversity agenda up with our wallets but not complain about things we do not like? Have you ever been to a comic shop? If you had you would know the people complaining are the ones buying the books they are complaining about. The only titles that I mentioned that I am not buying are Thor(shit writing) and Ironman(always hated Stark).
    I said it before fans complained when Dick(white) replaced Bruce as Batman. They complained when Eric Masterson(white) replaced Thor. They complained when Bucky(white) replaced Steve as Captain America. Go to a Comic shop an look through the stack of the person complaining the most and loudest. 9 times out of 10 you'll find the books that he/she's complaining about. I stopped complaining about Thor when I stopped buying it. Go look at my post and you will see. I miss reading Thor.I think some Jurgens or Simonson is in order. So get off your high horse everything isn't about race. And there is obviously a diversity agenda. One of the best books Marvel is publishing is Sam Wilson: Captain America. Why can't it be called Falcon? I think it is so they can brag about a male black character in a ongoing. I also think the book wouldn't last a year without the words Captain America on the cover. Oddly enough one of the worst books is Steve Rogers. Nazi-Cap?
    __________________
    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    And that's the entire point, the comic book readers have been having a stranglehold when it comes to minority representation. They were preventing new characters from being given success, which kept the comic book superhero appearing towards one demographic, like it was back to the 1940's. So marvel was stuck with a dilemna, have their comic book field continue to look like we were back in the 1940's, or do something about it to reflect modern society. Combine that with the fact that Marvel is making visual media of television and movies, where diversity is not only encourage, but almost expected, and you have the problem that marvel was is.
    So Marvel found a loophole, they realized that legacy diverse characters based off of mainstream franchises has a greater degree of success then new characters, due to the familiarity of the franchise. So Marvel decided to use that loophole, and now we have the greatest degree of diversity in the MU since the MU debuted. This not only allows them to reflect the modern world like they want, it allows them to be more future proof as the American demographic landscape continues to shift to a non-white demographic. In the end, it's no different than any other company attempting to adapt to a quickly changing landscape.
    So you can't say it isn't about race, and then say it's a diversity agenda. If it's a diversity agenda then it is about race (not just race but race is included), and if it isn't a diversity agenda then it isn't about race. But you can't have both. It's like saying isn't about race, but it's obviously a Affirmative Action. They are intertwined, and can't be separated.
    With that said, no one is disputing that they are pushing towards diversity. But people want to put a negative spin on it as if only with "diversity" is it an agenda. Everything Marvel created is an Agenda, it's a marketing aspect to reach different audiences as much as possible to guarantee success as a business. I put it to you this way, if the MU was created just now, and not in 1940s plus you best believe all the characters would not be looking the way they do now. Why was pretty much all characters white males? Because the demographic of that time was primarily white males with many containing racist attitudes. The chance of Captain America being the success he is now if he was created at that time as a non white male would be slim to none. So what did Marvel do? Marvel had an "agenda" the agenda to reach the white demographic.
    So everything marvel does, is pandering. Everything marvel does, is agenda based. They are a business. Period. So to be mad that the current agenda that they have doesn't fully reflect your taste shows the privilege that people enjoy.
    As the common statement goes
    "To those who are privilege, equality starts to look like oppression."
    So as mentioned before, it's perfectly fine to be mad at your character being removed. That's understandable, but to be mad over the fact that Marvel is trying to even the playing field by not having almost all white characters literally dominating the mainstream marvel atmosphere shows it's bigotry.
    ________________________
    by mathew101281
    All superhero comics are pandering on some level, always have been. Pandering is why Batman has like ten books on the shelves at any given time. Pandering is why fishnets are suddenly adequate attire for crime fighting.

    Pandering is how an ordinary human in a flying rodent costume can stand up to gods and demigods on a consistant basis and regularly come out on top. Pandering is why Hulk is a monster, but She-Hulk is a fitness model.
    Last edited by mace11; 12-25-2019 at 04:22 AM.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    I don't know if you use social media, but there were a lot of misogyny, homophobia, racism, and other bigotry out there. It was so bad that any true criticism was lost in the crowd.

    People has their own biases before even giving characters a chance, and we can't ignore that factor in this debate.
    I don't use social media, in general I find that most of then are just a meeting grounds for morons.
    The only sites I consistently use are other comic forums, and outside of a couple trolls if I saw someone who was against these characters they'd be able to coherently explain why and back it up with things that are in the book.
    So I know there are perfectly good reasons to be against these characters that have nothing to do with race, gender or orientation or whatever so I'm done with people using that as the main and only reason

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Rejection/repulsion by an impermeable readership base that only wants to read about their pet characters, even if it means reading previously explored plots and developments on said characters.
    This is basically the gist of it, you literally have to trick people into reading new characters. Original concepts get tossed away with the quickness, Mosaic and DC's New Age got met with instant pushback.
    Reading list: Far Sector (DC), Marauders (Marvel), X-Force (Marvel), X-Men (Marvel), Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Venom (Marvel), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Killadelphia (Image), Bitter Root (Image), Black Hammer: Age of Doom (Darkhorse)

  6. #156

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    What's an "icon", anyway? Something that was very important back in the day, and stood the test of time by remaining important a long time after its introduction. Batman was a big thing in 1939, and it's still a big thing now. Will Spider Woman and Ms. Marvel still be a huge thing in 80 years, or will they fade into oblivion? Who can know? Asking for "new icons" is an oxymoron.

  7. #157
    Incredible Member Force de Phenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skullkid View Post
    I don't use social media, in general I find that most of then are just a meeting grounds for morons.
    The only sites I consistently use are other comic forums, and outside of a couple trolls if I saw someone who was against these characters they'd be able to coherently explain why and back it up with things that are in the book.
    So I know there are perfectly good reasons to be against these characters that have nothing to do with race, gender or orientation or whatever so I'm done with people using that as the main and only reason
    And there are perfectly good reasons to be for these characters. So there goes your argument based on opinions. The old ones came back so don't worry about it any more.

    I don't know why people thought they were replacing these characters forever when they had made billions at the box office. Change is good, and change isn't forever, especially in comic books.

  8. #158
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    By this point you're just ignoring what I've been saying

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    To me, "new iconic" is like "modern classic"... a contradiction in terms.

    Do you want to see a character become iconic? Be prepared to wait.

    It's not going to happen overnight…
    There is no contradiction in terms Superman appeared in 1938, It is 2019. They are three characters I think most people will agree is Iconic in Superhero comics Superman, Batman, Spiderman with no arguments. The question reads "Hey 1938 to 2019 is long time. Why hasn't at least one character broken through to that level? The question also reads as okay maybe they are levels to Iconic and those three cut above but they are bunch who are below then Wolverine, Iron Man, Wonder Woman, Flash, Hulk, Green Lantern,etc. who else can make it to that level

    Even if it takes along time they didn't stop creating superheroes, Even if we are going Mile Morales is going to have to wait long time, What about Spawn he was created in 90s, What about War Machine he was created in 80s, What about luke Cage he was created in the 70s, What about Black Panther he was created in the 60s. The point is long time has happened. There is clearly a barrier and while Superman, Spiderman and Batman are awesome, It feels like someone should have climb into the picture by now and maybe they have myself and others aren't respecting them.

    I will talk about two character I felt got close, For a small period of Green Lantern was killing in comics with Geoff Johns. It felt to me like he was ascending upwards He has the years of history, Dc felt like it was revolving around Hal Jordan and Green Lantern concepts, He was starting to get the cartoons and media attention. The Next step was getting into public /masses and become a fixture. But we all know what happened next the Green lantern movie bombed and with died the extra push to keep Green Lantern on top in comics and right back to Batman and Superman. If the movie was successful there is no doubt Hal Jordan keeps getting events and company pushes. The second one is Iron Man he is the reverse issue he has general public and culture stuff but Marvel doesn't know what do with him in the comics or they don't care to have him be the face of Marvel. So Iron Man doesn't have the comic side popularity to get into the picture with mention big 3 characters. But I feel Marvel was motivated to make Tony Stark high seller they could.

    Maybe that is a little more clear because there is a bunch of people not realizing that hey they are constantly making characters.And comics have been around for a long time now.

  10. #160
    Extraordinary Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    What's an "icon", anyway? Something that was very important back in the day, and stood the test of time by remaining important a long time after its introduction. Batman was a big thing in 1939, and it's still a big thing now. Will Spider Woman and Ms. Marvel still be a huge thing in 80 years, or will they fade into oblivion? Who can know? Asking for "new icons" is an oxymoron.
    That's really not an accurate standard. After all, X-Men at one point was essentially a cancelled title. It went into reprint mode from issue 67 to about 93. Over the years Marvel has propped up several books and kept them going in some way, shape, or form, even though the readership was no longer there to support the title. If Marvel had let sales or reader preference determine what is "iconic" back then, we would have missed out on some great characters, not to mention the writers and artists that eventually elevated Marvel to the top of the industry.

  11. #161
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Saitama.

    Saitama is the most iconic comics character in the last X years.

    There are a lot of lies in this thread. A lot of justification for bad choices. A lot of and a lot of "BECAUSE MY SIDE IS RIGHT" no matter thinly veiled.

    Its not about the fans, its not <THE FANS JOB> read: Customers job to be "mutable" or to keep a business open or accept what they
    consider to be "weak, insulting, or uninteresting" product. Frankly, its not my job as a customer or as a consumer to even be interested in your product.

    Its the job of the company, and its representatives to move product. Period. Frankly its laughable to try to point or wag your fingers at your "fan base" and say "RAAAAACiST... Misogynist!!!.... PHOOOBIC"
    based on the people twitter or comicsvine or Cbr or whatever. Its a two-fold problem.

    1. The squeaky-wheel gets the grease. . . . So your getting trolled by some jerk, and that jerk gets the lions share of ALL your ATTENTION and responses. Drowning out praise because it lets you be feign victim-hood
    2. Claiming victim-hood at all, allows these guys to become largely immune to critique, and start digging their heels in about they're direction. Attacking customers ala "Who needs fans like this..."
    Frankly it depends on "who's paying" the most you know what a good indicator of this is? China.
    China is a place that GENUINELY and unabashedly puts race, and societal influence about all else. . . and people kowtow to them. John Boyega? Completely shrunk in the Star Wars posters. K-pop boy bands? Imports banned in china because it attacks their veiw of masculinity and sexuality in general, not to mention how every product has the question of Chinese sensibilities.

    But the truth is... you need to pander... you need to pander to your largest customer base to keep yourself afloat. If you do that you can MAYBE branch out from there if the wind is right.

    However, that isn't not going to help you write or create dynamic and iconic characters. . . or stories of heroism villainy and conflict.


    That has to be all on you. Sink or swim.

    Finally, its a bit disingenuous to me to try to squeeze in Kamala or Miles as "New" or "Iconic" they're legacy which is just .... NOT. Doesn't matter who you put in a superman suit, Superman is already iconic and the new characters or writers didn't MAKE him that way by their participation or existence. They're popular with certain crowds but ultimately they're just torch bearers... So even if they were "iconic" they're not really "NEW" like the title suggests or the Op asks.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

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