Why are they no new Iconic characters at Marvel?(or in comics)

[Electricmastro]

They did, but no new X-Men character will EVER be above the 90's X-Men (Wolverine, Storm, Jean, Cyclops, etc.) It would be a fool's errand to try to push them out of the way with any new mutant. That's why Hickman's books doesn't introduce any new, worthwhile ones. He knows better.

That's not really fair since Wolverine, Storm, Jean, and Cyclops have all been around for over 40 years, and the public at large arguably didn't care that much for Jean and Cyclops until Chris Claremont's writing came along. Does a new character have to be immediately above them in order to be worthwhile?

I mean, that's like saying:

"The New Mutants isn't worthwhile, because they haven't gotten the attention and great writing Wolverine has gotten."

"Generation X isn't worthwhile, because they haven't gotten the attention and great writing Wolverine has gotten."

"The New X-Men isn't worthwhile, because they haven't gotten the attention and great writing Wolverine has gotten."

"The Lights isn't worthwhile, because they haven't gotten the attention and great writing Wolverine has gotten."

Just how high does the acceptance bar have to be set before one is ready to accept new mutant characters Marvel decides to introduce?

[dkrook]

Blue Marvel...! Here we are with a character who is still really a blank slate, and left behind by the creator so needless to say there's tons of potential for him. He is always kept on the sidelines, or on the outer perimeter of things that are mainstream. When was the last time he played a role as the point man for a crossover event? Ever see him do feat worthy things working with the top tiered heroes lately? Has any writer given him active membership in the Avengers? Even if current writers don't want to give up their own created characters, cool don't they have enough skill the reimage old, obsolete ones, and give them a fresh start.

[Force de Phenix]

That's not really fair since Wolverine, Storm, Jean, and Cyclops have all been around for over 40 years, and the public at large arguably didn't care that much for Jean and Cyclops until Chris Claremont's writing came along. Does a new character have to be immediately above them in order to be worthwhile?

I mean, that's like saying:

"The New Mutants isn't worthwhile, because they haven't gotten the attention and great writing Wolverine has gotten."

"Generation X isn't worthwhile, because they haven't gotten the attention and great writing Wolverine has gotten."

"The New X-Men isn't worthwhile, because they haven't gotten the attention and great writing Wolverine has gotten."

"The Lights isn't worthwhile, because they haven't gotten the attention and great writing Wolverine has gotten."

Just how high does the acceptance bar have to be set before one is ready to accept new mutant characters Marvel decides to introduce?

We're talking about iconic characters. Not characters in general. A lot of people think many characters aren't worthwhile. Also, a lot of people hate Hope because they think she's a poor man's Jean Grey. Jean is what iconic represents. I can't think of many other newer mutants who could be at her level and they had years to try (i.e. Hope)

[skyvolt2000]

Why do they need to be pushed out though?
There's no reason they can't make a new character and promote them without coming at the expense of someone else.
Marvel the exact sort of thing people didn't like about ANAD, and characters like Iron Heart and Jane Foster.

EDUCATED comic book fans KNEW Tony & Thor was coming back. Because they always do.

What you saw was trolls who HATED seeing POC do more than be in the background.
Trolls who don't READ comics or know comics.
Riri NEVER called herself Ironman but DOOM did. Folks don't want to talk about that.

As for this-

Where is this logic coming from that you need to get rid of older characters when you introduce new ones?

That is a MANAGEMENT issue. It at times comes from viewing one as a THREAT to another.

It's why you saw 2 former Batgirl gets ERASED when Babs took over in New 52.
It's why you saw Wally West vanish and then for time come back as a racist stereotype in Flash.
It's why John Stewart has been a MESS since New 52 started.

It is also FORCING a writer to use folks. The downside to it is some writers are not skilled in that.
Its how you get Johns Cyborg in Justice League.
Duke Thomas in Tom King's Batman-where he was only one one panel or not there at all.
An under-performing Hal Jordan & TGLC book-because a LOT of folks did not want to read about Hal. Because it came at the expense of others.
It's Storm's story since 2000 and it's Black Panther's issue in how own dang book.

Finally it means one less BOOK in the market.
Instead of doing an ANNOUNCED not STEALTH mini with say Rayshuan Lucas-we make him Cap America Sam Wilson's partner over Falcon.

[skyvolt2000]

We're talking about iconic characters. Not characters in general. A lot of people think many characters aren't worthwhile. Also, a lot of people hate Hope because they think she's a poor man's Jean Grey. Jean is what iconic represents. I can't think of many other newer mutants who could be at her level and they had years to try (i.e. Hope)

People thought that about Black Panther, Carol Danvers & Aquaman.

They have done better than some so-called Iconic folks.

Call me when we get this Jean Grey solo movie that makes a billion, wins 3 Oscars and a trade that dominates sales (for a time).

[DigiCom]

To me, "new iconic" is like "modern classic"... a contradiction in terms.

Do you want to see a character become iconic? Be prepared to wait.

It's not going to happen overnight…

[Electricmastro]

People thought that about Black Panther, Carol Danvers & Aquaman.

Yep, I may be thinking too simply, but I think that if you want the wider public to care about your character, then write the character in such a way that they'll care.

[Force de Phenix]

People thought that about Black Panther, Carol Danvers & Aquaman.

They have done better than some so-called Iconic folks.

Call me when we get this Jean Grey solo movie that makes a billion, wins 3 Oscars and a trade that dominates sales (for a time).

Don't put me in the same basket as those people. Also, moviegoers are not the same as comicbook fanboys. And movies are very different from comics in many ways, like comic is a niche culture that is targeted towards nostalgia hence the Legacy era, and movies are targeted towards everyone who can buy a ticket so the studios can make money.

The same people that went to a corner store with a comic book rack, are not people who read entertainment primarily online, or who can give a hoot about comics.

Anyway, I think terms like "iconic" characters hinders growth and space for changes.

[Electricmastro]

People thought that about Black Panther, Carol Danvers & Aquaman.

And had a level of success and achievements even before those movies came along. I may be thinking too simply, but I think that if you want the wider public to care about your character, then write the character in such a way that they'll care.

[Skullkid]

EDUCATED comic book fans KNEW Tony & Thor was coming back. Because they always do.

What you saw was trolls who HATED seeing POC do more than be in the background.
Trolls who don't READ comics or know comics.
Riri NEVER called herself Ironman but DOOM did. Folks don't want to talk about that.

Oh will people grow up and stop using racism as an excuse?
This is getting old and demonstrating that you need to make excuses instead of facing the legitimate reasons for why people wouldn't like them.
Did we always know Thor was getting his hammer back? Yes but that doesn't change the fact during Jane Foster's time as Thor he was changed into a sad sack that pretty much everyone disrespected, who gave up his name, or how Riri took over the main Iron Man title after pretty much coming out of nowhere, did really nothing to earn it, proved to be an unlikeable character in the book itself and wouldn't gain any real likable traits until being put in champions.
And many people thought Doom calling himself Iron Man was stupid too but at the very least Doom didn't take over the main title, and had a presence in the Iron Man run preceding his tenure, it was still badly handled but slightly less than Riri

[Raye]

You're trying to frame this as a contradiction but it isn't.
Wanting new characters around doesn't mean people want the older characters gone.

This is true, but it's one of those things where you can't quite have it both ways, not entirely, anyway. If the old characters are still around and in prominent roles, then it is much harder for new characters to get a look, because people can only buy or have time to read so many comic books in a month, and if given a limited number of books a month due to budget or time, they'll usually pick the tried and true favorite they've been following for years. There are exceptions, like Kamala, or Jessica Jones, where, while they don't sell tons, they can sell enough to justify sustaining a book for them, (which gives them a chance to go on to become 'iconic' but that requires a lot of time and sustained interest) but it's pretty rare, and usually requires tapping into a new audience, which is hard to do. So it's not that surprising to me that sometimes the old guard gets sidelined (temporarily most of the time, and most people know this will be the case, or at least they should by now) in order to give a newer character more of chance to shine, because that's just what has been proven to work, given limited shelf space and buying power of the customer.

I'm not saying it HAS to be that way every time, clearly some characters that were created and introduced without sidelining the big guns has worked as well, I know. But there is more than one way to tell a story, and I can understand the thinking there, given the difficulties new characters face. I also don't think the idea of a character being sidelined for whatever reason has to be forbidden, because sometimes a character's absence kinda IS the story, they may not be the main character but their absence is still a part of the story, and it still says something about them. It's still about them, in a way, even if they are not appearing on panel. Superior Spider-Man for instance was still very much about Peter even if Ock was the main character, same with Thor. And I don't have a problem with it being used sometimes, and if the story is good enough, (I don't think Thor, Iron Man, Cap, etc, were sidelined solely to give lesser known characters a push, there was more to the stories than that, but it was an aspect) I mean, I get it. And it's worked for some characters like Robbie Reyes, Mile Morales, (he was Peter's replacement in the Ultimate universe even if they now co-exist in the main universe) etc. where stepping into a predecessor's role and using their name helped elevate their status enough that they could get a look from some fans of the old characters. Mantles get passed because it works, if it didn't work, or if it was easier in today's market to get a new character with no ties at all to an older character to catch on, they wouldn't do it as much.

[WebLurker]

Oh will people grow up and stop using racism as an excuse?

Sad to say, it's not always an excuse and ignoring the problem has only proven to make things worse.

[Force de Phenix]

Oh will people grow up and stop using racism as an excuse?
This is getting old and demonstrating that you need to make excuses instead of facing the legitimate reasons for why people wouldn't like them.
Did we always know Thor was getting his hammer back? Yes but that doesn't change the fact during Jane Foster's time as Thor he was changed into a sad sack that pretty much everyone disrespected, who gave up his name, or how Riri took over the main Iron Man title after pretty much coming out of nowhere, did really nothing to earn it, proved to be an unlikeable character in the book itself and wouldn't gain any real likable traits until being put in champions.
And many people thought Doom calling himself Iron Man was stupid too but at the very least Doom didn't take over the main title, and had a presence in the Iron Man run preceding his tenure, it was still badly handled but slightly less than Riri

I don't know if you use social media, but there were a lot of misogyny, homophobia, racism, and other bigotry out there. It was so bad that any true criticism was lost in the crowd.

People has their own biases before even giving characters a chance, and we can't ignore that factor in this debate.

[mace11]

Blue Marvel...! Here we are with a character who is still really a blank slate, and left behind by the creator so needless to say there's tons of potential for him.
He is always kept on the sidelines, or on the outer perimeter of things that are mainstream.When was the last time he played a role as the point man for a crossover event?

Here some folks who compares him to john stewart who has been around much longer.

Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace
To me, Blue is a mix of Superman, John Stewart, and Reed Richards. I find him to be a highly interesting character that I strongly desire to see utilized more and fleshed out. Alas, nobody at Marvel will even attempt to touch him with a 10ft pole, probably because his immense powerset and intellect may be too daunting of a task to portray for the writers.
I'd actually say John is in better condition than Blue is right now, since John has been more consistently utilized in various things comics + outside media. Like I said on this thread regarding our boy John and on Blue's thread, all that can change with a successful movie. It's a faint hope to hold onto (maybe less for John), but it's all we've got.

Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Emerald 23 View Post
I can't say John is necessarily in better condition than Blue Marvel, sure John has more consistently utilized but how pivotal has he been to those appearances in recent years? how well written and fleshed out has he been? John gets used more consistently used because he's been around the block longer but, in the current comic/superhero storytelling landscape, I believe Blue Marvel gets handled with better care when he's put on-page. Blue Marvel's origin is contemporarily relevant and he is rarely relegated to being background or a cheerleader, or a sidekick if he's in the panel he's usually doing something that points to his strengths as a character. I just don't think John gets written as consistently compelling or with as much care comparatively

Anyway in his own books,his team books and certain other books and certain other things he not been keep on the sidelines or on the outer perimeter of things mainstream so don't use that word always because that's not true.

Blue Marvel...! Here we are with a character who is still really a blank slate

I disagree.
Let's keep things in perspective.
Blue marvel has had great character development so i would not say he is a blank slate.
He has had more character development then most g.i joe characters for example and has been shown more then most g.i joes in comics and he has been shown then most who are from the 1980's.
He has been shown more often in first 10 years then the first 10 years of john stewart,blade and brother voodoo for example.

Keep in mind he is superman type character in marvel a well and most of those type of characters for the first 10 years have not been shown as much.
Blue marvel and sentry are the exceptions.
Blue marvel has been shown more and had more development in his first 10 years then hyperion and gladiator if you compare him to certain other superman types in marvel.
The only one shown the most in thier first 10 years is sentry and look what happen to him later or most of the 2010's.
Blue marvel will be shown more down road and with more feats so just be patient or patient enough.

[mace11]

Here some other views over the years talking about legacy,mantles and diversity.

by KidStranglehold
I OFFICIALLY take back everything I said about Marvel's diversity push. With them giving non-white characters titles that use to belong to white characters. For example the Hulk or Iron man. Before I thought it was lazy on Marvel's push when they should be pushing the minority characters they ALREADY HAVE But... JESUS CHRIST..... Reading through Comicvine that site has become the comicbook site for alt righters. I hope Marvel keeps doing what they are doing to make these clowns angry. Who needs readers like them? I'm sorry of this post is dramatic.
Lastly you can tell its not just about white characters turning non-white. No they just dont wanna see non-white characters at all! With them constantly complaining about the Black Panther film.
http://community.comicbookresources....The-MU/page257
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Sutekh quote-
Indeed, it was the early 'diversity push' that resulted in the creation of characters like Storm and Cyborg that led to the biggest sales numbers seen in my lifetime, and, I'm sure, there was some Archie Bunker-type complaining about why there had to be a black person shoved down their throat on the Teen Titans or X-Men.
http://community.comicbookresources....SPOILERS/page9
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Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
Sure, MM totally didn't seem like an afterthought, that's why for 50 years he didn't get a single long-lasting standalone book. Compare MM's treatment over the years to the way even the "secondary" original members like Aquaman or Flash have been treated and he starts to looks like an afterthought very fast.
You're correct about Marvel, as compared to DC's treatment of Cyborg, they absolutely treated minority characters like Sam or Miles much better, but often at the expense of their "classic" characters and alienated lots fans in the process. In any event, Cyborg could "fit" the JL just as good as J'onn did, as long as DC made the effort to do so. It's just a shame they seemingly didn't give it much thought sooner than they did.
I'm also curious what would happen post-Rebirth. Is Vic still going to be a founding JL member, Wally did remember him when he was trapped in the speed force. If his TT past is restored, would they just put him in the Titans book and bring J'onn back to the JL.
I'm also curious what would happen post-Rebirth. Is Vic still going to be a founding JL member, Wally did remember him when he was trapped in the speed force. If his TT past is restored, would they just put him in the Titans book and bring J'onn back to the JL.
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Quote Originally Posted by BradleyFan
I prefer Marvel's way to DC's way any day of the week. Comic fans will always be upset about something being changed from the status quo. And if you add a nonwhite character to the mix, they'll get even more upset. When Cyborg was first brought onto the Justice League, people said over and over again that his inclusion was "forced" and "stupid" and DC was just trying to be PC, and those were the exact same comments that people said about Miles, and Sam Wilson and and Kamala Kahn, and all the other nonwhite heroes.
The difference between Cyborg and the others? The others were pushed to the forefront and supported regardless of Comic fans' disapproval. People are going to have a problem with nonwhite heroes, no matter how you introduce them. And if you work to ensure that you're customer base is comfortable with these new nonwhite heroes, the property you're trying to support won't get any support at all. Marvel may have alienated some fans, but I like that they're working hard to make their property inclusive.
Honestly, if those comic fans don't want these minority heroes taking the mantles of established white heroes, they should be the ones buying books like Cyborg...
Cyborg a-k-a Vic Stone Appreciation
http://community.comicbookresources....!!!!!!/page159
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