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  1. #4306
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    For ME, it looks like Hemsworth is actually laughing when he's crying. I dunno why I feel this way, but I that's my impression of his acting. He's a naturally funny dude. I just vaguely remember Garfield crying and I was like dude, WHY?!
    I don't recall Garfield crying much. Just when Gwen died. I'm sure I'm forgetting other examples though, I didn't watch those films often. Tobey definitely seemed to cry a fair amount, and didn't make it look very appealing on screen, but I haven't seen any of those movies in years so it might just be my memory highlighting things that weren't actually as prevalent as I remember.

    I only recall Thor crying in...two...scenes? There's the talk with Rocket in Infinity War, where he sheds a single tear while talking about everyone who died, and then in Endgame when he has a breakdown (shortly before talking to his mother). In both cases it worked for me. Given what he had been through, a couple tears is totally justified and I think Hemsworth sold the emotion. And I say this as a guy who doesn't cry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Eh, a lot of these 'sympathetic villains' aren't really done well. I don't need to cry for these villains to enjoy them or believe them. I think the older version of Zemo would've worked fine, because at least it's not 'superheroes should be accountable' as a villain motif. Villainizing good ideals doesn't really make me sympathize
    I don't think Zemo's issue is "accountability" so much as "power corrupts." He doesn't want anyone having enhanced powers (or maybe I'm taking the plane conversation in F&tWS too far?). His appearances have focused on super soldiers but I'm assuming he feels the same way about any genetically enhanced individual regardless of where their power comes from. So he wouldn't want mages, people powered by Infinity Stones, mutants, etc.

    And in the case of the super soldier serum Zemo's not wrong; that hasn't worked out well for anyone but Steve (and Zemo admits as much; Steve is the exception that proves the rule).

    Oh, speaking of which what's Bucky's status? He's treated like a super soldier but I didn't think he had any enhancements beyond the cybernetic arm?

    In any case, I don't need all my villains to be sympathetic either (and I wish Zemo hadn't been treated as such). Sometimes that's great, but I want variety and bad guys who aren't likeable, who don't have vaguely positive goals or ideals....sometimes I want a piece of sh*t villain who just likes doing terrible things. That's what makes Joker and nazi's such good villains; you can root for them to be beat to hell and not feel bad about it.

    And of course there's a difference between "sympathetic" and "understandable." Thanos is understandable; his motives are clear and we can understand how he came to his conclusions. But he's not sympathetic; we don't feel sorry for him, we just get why he's a bastard. Same with Killmonger; he's not sympathetic at all, he wants a return of Old World colonization, which puts him on roughly the same level as a nazi. But we can understand why he feels the way he does and the very honest, real anger that drove these opinions, and while he's got a nugget of truth in his motivations his goals are f*cking disgusting.

    I honestly think with Killmonger, the raw charisma of Michael B Jordan worked against the character. Dude is such a good actor and so fun to watch it's easy to forget that 'Monger's plan was to overthrow the world and reinstate slavery/racism as official policy.
    Last edited by Ascended; 09-25-2021 at 09:15 AM.
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  2. #4307
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't recall Garfield crying much. Just when Gwen died. I'm sure I'm forgetting other examples though, I didn't watch those films often. Tobey definitely seemed to cry a fair amount, and didn't make it look very appealing on screen, but I haven't seen any of those movies in years so it might just be my memory highlighting things that weren't actually as prevalent as I remember.

    I only recall Thor crying in...two...scenes? There's the talk with Rocket in Infinity War, where he sheds a single tear while talking about everyone who died, and then in Endgame when he has a breakdown (shortly before talking to his mother). In both cases it worked for me. Given what he had been through, a couple tears is totally justified and I think Hemsworth sold the emotion. And I say this as a guy who doesn't cry.



    I don't think Zemo's issue is "accountability" so much as "power corrupts." He doesn't want anyone having enhanced powers (or maybe I'm taking the plane conversation in F&tWS too far?). His appearances have focused on super soldiers but I'm assuming he feels the same way about any genetically enhanced individual regardless of where their power comes from. So he wouldn't want mages, people powered by Infinity Stones, mutants, etc.

    And in the case of the super soldier serum Zemo's not wrong; that hasn't worked out well for anyone but Steve (and Zemo admits as much; Steve is the exception that proves the rule).

    Oh, speaking of which what's Bucky's status? He's treated like a super soldier but I didn't think he had any enhancements beyond the cybernetic arm?

    In any case, I don't need all my villains to be sympathetic either (and I wish Zemo hadn't been treated as such). Sometimes that's great, but I want variety and bad guys who aren't likeable, who don't have vaguely positive goals or ideals....sometimes I want a piece of sh*t villain who just likes doing terrible things. That's what makes Joker and nazi's such good villains; you can root for them to be beat to hell and not feel bad about it.

    And of course there's a difference between "sympathetic" and "understandable." Thanos is understandable; his motives are clear and we can understand how he came to his conclusions. But he's not sympathetic; we don't feel sorry for him, we just get why he's a bastard. Same with Killmonger; he's not sympathetic at all, he wants a return of Old World colonization, which puts him on roughly the same level as a nazi. But we can understand why he feels the way he does and the very honest, real anger that drove these opinions, and while he's got a nugget of truth in his motivations his goals are f*cking disgusting.

    I honestly think with Killmonger, the raw charisma of Michael B Jordan worked against the character. Dude is such a good actor and so fun to watch it's easy to forget that 'Monger's plan was to overthrow the world and reinstate slavery/racism as official policy.
    I think Bucky has some variant of the serum to explain part of why he's so durable. It's not entirely just the arm. Zemo spared him because he felt like Bucky had been through enough.

    Walker also kind of bucked the trend...not before going off the rails at first, but he was able to course-correct and actually do the right thing in the end. And he survived because Zemo never knew he took the serum.

  3. #4308
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    Quote Originally Posted by G. Boney View Post
    My preference would be for them to simply recast.
    Same. But the way things are going, recasting via multiverse seems like the best way they can still use T’Challa without being scared that audiences will think they’re disrespecting Boseman though I personally wouldn’t think it would be disrespectful at all.
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  4. #4309
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't recall Garfield crying much. Just when Gwen died. I'm sure I'm forgetting other examples though, I didn't watch those films often. Tobey definitely seemed to cry a fair amount, and didn't make it look very appealing on screen, but I haven't seen any of those movies in years so it might just be my memory highlighting things that weren't actually as prevalent as I remember.

    I only recall Thor crying in...two...scenes? There's the talk with Rocket in Infinity War, where he sheds a single tear while talking about everyone who died, and then in Endgame when he has a breakdown (shortly before talking to his mother). In both cases it worked for me. Given what he had been through, a couple tears is totally justified and I think Hemsworth sold the emotion. And I say this as a guy who doesn't cry.



    I don't think Zemo's issue is "accountability" so much as "power corrupts." He doesn't want anyone having enhanced powers (or maybe I'm taking the plane conversation in F&tWS too far?). His appearances have focused on super soldiers but I'm assuming he feels the same way about any genetically enhanced individual regardless of where their power comes from. So he wouldn't want mages, people powered by Infinity Stones, mutants, etc.

    And in the case of the super soldier serum Zemo's not wrong; that hasn't worked out well for anyone but Steve (and Zemo admits as much; Steve is the exception that proves the rule).

    Oh, speaking of which what's Bucky's status? He's treated like a super soldier but I didn't think he had any enhancements beyond the cybernetic arm?

    In any case, I don't need all my villains to be sympathetic either (and I wish Zemo hadn't been treated as such). Sometimes that's great, but I want variety and bad guys who aren't likeable, who don't have vaguely positive goals or ideals....sometimes I want a piece of sh*t villain who just likes doing terrible things. That's what makes Joker and nazi's such good villains; you can root for them to be beat to hell and not feel bad about it.

    And of course there's a difference between "sympathetic" and "understandable." Thanos is understandable; his motives are clear and we can understand how he came to his conclusions. But he's not sympathetic; we don't feel sorry for him, we just get why he's a bastard. Same with Killmonger; he's not sympathetic at all, he wants a return of Old World colonization, which puts him on roughly the same level as a nazi. But we can understand why he feels the way he does and the very honest, real anger that drove these opinions, and while he's got a nugget of truth in his motivations his goals are f*cking disgusting.

    I honestly think with Killmonger, the raw charisma of Michael B Jordan worked against the character. Dude is such a good actor and so fun to watch it's easy to forget that 'Monger's plan was to overthrow the world and reinstate slavery/racism as official policy.
    Yeah, I could be misremember things from the Sony Spider-Man movies as well. Thor's crying was fine with me. It just looked like Hemsworth was laughing at the same time as well to ME. I don't cry at superhero movies. They are meant to be silly and I hope they remain so. I mean these are stories in which heroes are created through spider bites, ant farts and black holes with anger issues for crying out loud. It'll be a very sad day when the MCU starts taking itself too seriously. The last movie that I watched which caused me to shed a couple of tears was Madame X (1966). That's a pretty sad one.

  5. #4310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    For ME, it looks like Hemsworth is actually laughing when he's crying. I dunno why I feel this way, but that's my impression of his acting. He's a naturally funny dude. I just vaguely remember Garfield crying and I was like dude, WHY?!
    Ok. I didn't get that from Hemsworth at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't recall Garfield crying much. Just when Gwen died. I'm sure I'm forgetting other examples though, I didn't watch those films often. Tobey definitely seemed to cry a fair amount, and didn't make it look very appealing on screen, but I haven't seen any of those movies in years so it might just be my memory highlighting things that weren't actually as prevalent as I remember.

    I only recall Thor crying in...two...scenes? There's the talk with Rocket in Infinity War, where he sheds a single tear while talking about everyone who died, and then in Endgame when he has a breakdown (shortly before talking to his mother). In both cases it worked for me. Given what he had been through, a couple tears is totally justified and I think Hemsworth sold the emotion. And I say this as a guy who doesn't cry.



    I don't think Zemo's issue is "accountability" so much as "power corrupts." He doesn't want anyone having enhanced powers (or maybe I'm taking the plane conversation in F&tWS too far?). His appearances have focused on super soldiers but I'm assuming he feels the same way about any genetically enhanced individual regardless of where their power comes from. So he wouldn't want mages, people powered by Infinity Stones, mutants, etc.

    And in the case of the super soldier serum Zemo's not wrong; that hasn't worked out well for anyone but Steve (and Zemo admits as much; Steve is the exception that proves the rule).
    But it still comes from this recurring theme in Marvel of the only people seeking to put limits on people in power are evil because Marvel is too chicken to criticize vigilantism or superheroism as it's been done so far. For once I'd like to see a hero seek some limits on power and not be villainized like the pro-registration/accords side was. And Zemo's whole 'super soldiers are evil' doesn't make sense considering Ultron killed his family. And he was part of a Sokovian strike squad and a baron so he has little room to talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, speaking of which what's Bucky's status? He's treated like a super soldier but I didn't think he had any enhancements beyond the cybernetic arm?

    In any case, I don't need all my villains to be sympathetic either (and I wish Zemo hadn't been treated as such). Sometimes that's great, but I want variety and bad guys who aren't likeable, who don't have vaguely positive goals or ideals....sometimes I want a piece of sh*t villain who just likes doing terrible things. That's what makes Joker and nazi's such good villains; you can root for them to be beat to hell and not feel bad about it.

    And of course there's a difference between "sympathetic" and "understandable." Thanos is understandable; his motives are clear and we can understand how he came to his conclusions. But he's not sympathetic; we don't feel sorry for him, we just get why he's a bastard. Same with Killmonger; he's not sympathetic at all, he wants a return of Old World colonization, which puts him on roughly the same level as a nazi. But we can understand why he feels the way he does and the very honest, real anger that drove these opinions, and while he's got a nugget of truth in his motivations his goals are f*cking disgusting.

    I honestly think with Killmonger, the raw charisma of Michael B Jordan worked against the character. Dude is such a good actor and so fun to watch it's easy to forget that 'Monger's plan was to overthrow the world and reinstate slavery/racism as official policy.
    I didn't really care for MBJ that much. I know some people like him but I found him too one note. But I generally don't care for him for the same reason I don't care for Zemo's motivations: villainizing any attempt at reform.

  6. #4311
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Bucky has some variant of the serum to explain part of why he's so durable. It's not entirely just the arm. Zemo spared him because he felt like Bucky had been through enough.
    Yeah I feel like they've never been totally clear about it? I figure if Bucky does have any serum in him, he was an early test project for those Siberian Winter Soldiers we saw in Civil War.

    But I dunno if they've ever straight up said anything one way or another. For all I know Bucky's got subdermal cybernetics to help balance out/control the arm, and that's where his durability and (non metal arm) strength come from.

    Walker also kind of bucked the trend...not before going off the rails at first, but he was able to course-correct and actually do the right thing in the end. And he survived because Zemo never knew he took the serum.
    I dunno if I'd say Walker bucked the trend. Pre-serum he struck me as a guy stuck between wanting to be a good man and the ugly necessities of his job. Post-serum he's still trapped in that morally gray area but is more unbalanced, more unpredictable, and more manic. He was never a hero or a villain, he was a soldier, and I don't think the serum changed that (and doing the right thing one time doesn't either)....it just brought that struggle to the surface and made him less reliable.

    Hell, even Captain Carter in What If has had that problem; she gets carried away easily by what the serum allows her to do, and at times seemed almost drunk on the power. Only Steve has gone through the process without it changing his behavior.
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  7. #4312
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Yeah I feel like they've never been totally clear about it? I figure if Bucky does have any serum in him, he was an early test project for those Siberian Winter Soldiers we saw in Civil War.

    But I dunno if they've ever straight up said anything one way or another. For all I know Bucky's got subdermal cybernetics to help balance out/control the arm, and that's where his durability and (non metal arm) strength come from.
    From his first appearance he pulled things off that are totally off limits for non-enhanced humans, for example running at the same speed as Cap and Black Panther in the tunnel chase in Civil War, so it's obvious that he received a variant of the super soldier serum.

    And if you want straight up statements I'm pretty sure it was mentioned a couple times in TFATWS, e.g. John Walker said something about the serum running through Bucky's veins.
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  8. #4313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    No problem with self-doubt. But when Thor cried in Endgame I was laughing. The way Spider-Man cried in the Sony movies was just too much. Every now and then is fine. But they were leaking like faucets after a while, and I thought it was terribly overwrought. At least Black Panther had some dignity when he shed his tears. Just my opinion though.
    I found Thor crying while smiling/laughing in Infinity War during his talk with Rocket to be even more tragic. That worked for me.

    I can’t comment on the Spidey movies because I hardly remember them.
    Last edited by Tofali; 09-25-2021 at 04:49 PM.
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  9. #4314
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    From his first appearance he pulled things off that are totally off limits for non-enhanced humans, for example running at the same speed as Cap and Black Panther in the tunnel chase in Civil War, so it's obvious that he received a variant of the super soldier serum.

    And if you want straight up statements I'm pretty sure it was mentioned a couple times in TFATWS, e.g. John Walker said something about the serum running through Bucky's veins.
    And zemo said he wasn't goign to kill him, implying Bucky was a SS and on Zemos hit list for a bit.

    He also was able to easily hang with the other flag smasher SS, and straight up F'd them up when he was allowed to unleash a bit (in that scene before Walker went nuts)

    Dudes obviously a SS.
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  10. #4315
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    D
    I found Thor crying while smiling/laughing in Infinity War during his talk with Rocket to be even more tragic. That worked for me.

    I can’t comment on the Spidey movies because I hardly remember them.
    Oh yeah, I had no problem Thor smiling/laughing and crying at the same time. It totally worked for me too. The Sony Spidey movies just went overboard with the tears though (as I recall). I'm watching superhero movies, not wakes.

  11. #4316
    MYTH SMITH ∞ !!! G. Boney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, speaking of which what's Bucky's status? He's treated like a super soldier but I didn't think he had any enhancements beyond the cybernetic arm?
    Bucky also has a version of the serum. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to keep up with Cap in a fight as he did in Winter Soldier, or run as fast as vehicles as we've seen him do a couple times, or jump from planes and not die lol.
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  12. #4317
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    Yeah, I think the multiverse was the way they found of keeping Spider-Man in the MCU while still crossing over with the Venom/Morbius/etc Sonyverse.
    I could see them using this opportunity to write this version of Spider-Man out of the MCU. Everyone forgets him and it will be left ambiguous about whether he's in the MCU or not anymore and it's 'Spider-Man No More' again until the next movie hits.

    The Multiverse will give a jolt of life to Sony's other properties by legtimazing them as characters that exist in the Multiverse and could cross over with the MCU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I only recall Thor crying in...two...scenes? There's the talk with Rocket in Infinity War, where he sheds a single tear while talking about everyone who died, and then in Endgame when he has a breakdown (shortly before talking to his mother). In both cases it worked for me. Given what he had been through, a couple tears is totally justified and I think Hemsworth sold the emotion. And I say this as a guy who doesn't cry.
    He also cried in the first Thor movie when Loki lied to him about Odin's death and his banishment. That was played more seriously. His later Thor appearances blended comedy and drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    [B]

    But it still comes from this recurring theme in Marvel of the only people seeking to put limits on people in power are evil because Marvel is too chicken to criticize vigilantism or superheroism as it's been done so far. For once I'd like to see a hero seek some limits on power and not be villainized like the pro-registration/accords side was. And Zemo's whole 'super soldiers are evil' doesn't make sense considering Ultron killed his family. And he was part of a Sokovian strike squad and a baron so he has little room to talk.
    And who built Ultron?

    I agree though that they need to stop making anyone who tries to hold heroes accountable look bad.

    Although I note that Cap's distrust of authority in Civil War isn't without merit since he was willing to serve SHIELD until he found out they were controlled by Hydra but he's not entirely right to avoid oversight either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Yeah I feel like they've never been totally clear about it? I figure if Bucky does have any serum in him, he was an early test project for those Siberian Winter Soldiers we saw in Civil War.
    He was captured and experimented on in the first movie. Whatever done to him was incomplete until he 'died' after falling off that train. Zola presumably completed the experiments done on him turning him into a super soldier. Could be as simple as him getting injected with experimental super soldier serum in his veins and just needed a dose of vita rays to complete the procedure.

  13. #4318
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    He was captured and experimented on in the first movie. Whatever done to him was incomplete until he 'died' after falling off that train. Zola presumably completed the experiments done on him turning him into a super soldier. Could be as simple as him getting injected with experimental super soldier serum in his veins and just needed a dose of vita rays to complete the procedure.
    That's the general assumption; Hydra was trying to re-create the serum and Bucky was an early test project that wasn't finished until after the train incident.

    And I didn't say Bucky wasn't enhanced. He's obviously not on baseline human levels. I just question if he's a serum-infused super soldier.

    I just feel like that doesn't jive with the idea of the serum being lost. Even if the proto-serum recipe itself was lost during the War, even with Hydra having to rebuild within SHIELD, they had access to Bucky and some of the greatest scientific minds available. Why didn't Hydra have a whole legion of super soldiers secreted away by the time Steve came out of the ice? We know the Siberian batch were too violent and uncontrollable to be used often, but after seventy odd years that's supposed to be the best Hydra could come up with? Six dudes with anger issues? Hydra is capable of project Insight but couldn't squeeze out a roster of soldiers? After seventy years?

    This is why I wonder if Bucky actually isn't an activated super soldier, and instead has cybernetic enhancements beyond his arm.

    I'm sure he's a super soldier in canon (and I forgot about the Zemo discussions, Zemo definitely believes it), but Bucky being one creates a plot hole I don't like so I guess I'm just trying to twist it to my own satisfaction.
    Last edited by Ascended; 09-25-2021 at 09:11 PM.
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  14. #4319
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    I get that Steve didn't trust government but he didn't at all consider criticizing vigilantism or lack of oversight. Rhodey pointed out it's not just HYDRA or SHIELD, but the UN. Just having power doesn't equal the right to act. He had legitimate criticisms of the Accords and becoming a military strike force without autonomy, but didn't seem interested in compromise

    And I'm not sure who built Ultron tbh but Tony was crazy to run off and use the Mind Stone so rashly. Honestly AoU was a character regression for Tony

  15. #4320
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That's the general assumption; Hydra was trying to re-create the serum and Bucky was an early test project that wasn't finished until after the train incident.

    And I didn't say Bucky wasn't enhanced. He's obviously not on baseline human levels. I just question if he's a serum-infused super soldier.

    I just feel like that doesn't jive with the idea of the serum being lost. Even if the proto-serum recipe itself was lost during the War, even with Hydra having to rebuild within SHIELD, they had access to Bucky and some of the greatest scientific minds available. Why didn't Hydra have a whole legion of super soldiers secreted away by the time Steve came out of the ice? We know the Siberian batch were too violent and uncontrollable to be used often, but after seventy odd years that's supposed to be the best Hydra could come up with? Six dudes with anger issues? Hydra is capable of project Insight but couldn't squeeze out a roster of soldiers? After seventy years?

    This is why I wonder if Bucky actually isn't an activated super soldier, and instead has cybernetic enhancements beyond his arm.

    I'm sure he's a super soldier in canon (and I forgot about the Zemo discussions, Zemo definitely believes it), but Bucky being one creates a plot hole I don't like so I guess I'm just trying to twist it to my own satisfaction.
    Until we get new information this is the best theory we have.

    I wonder if super soldiers will get brought back up again, either in Cap 4 or another D+. There has definitely been a few dangling threads. What was Howard Stark really doing with those vials of super soldier serums?

    I would also add that Project Insight was an engineering problem and super soldiers are a biological challenge. Like you wouldn't ask an IT guy for why you have a cough instead of a doctor. So far with the exception of Shuri and Banner's 7 PHD's, the MCU has avoided scientist characters who are omni-disciplinary.

    Zola getting his mind turned into a living computer might have been an influence on why super soldiers weren't developed early.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I get that Steve didn't trust government but he didn't at all consider criticizing vigilantism or lack of oversight. Rhodey pointed out it's not just HYDRA or SHIELD, but the UN. Just having power doesn't equal the right to act. He had legitimate criticisms of the Accords and becoming a military strike force without autonomy, but didn't seem interested in compromise

    And I'm not sure who built Ultron tbh but Tony was crazy to run off and use the Mind Stone so rashly. Honestly AoU was a character regression for Tony
    Tony built Ultron with Banner's help.

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