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  1. #4366
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He has a literal bulletproof armored suit now! Why even need Spider-Sense or reflexes to dodge stuff?
    Probably to avoid all the other stuff that could hurt or kill him

  2. #4367
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    It's not even called Spider-Sense, it's the Peter Tingle. The MCU did with Peter Parker what they probably intended to do with Harley, the kid from Iron Man three. He even showed up at Tony's funeral in endgame.
    It is kind of funny to me that the first Watts movie basically portrays him without it so villains can keep getting the drop on him but then it proves narattively vital in the second movie.

    The Russo's were more subtle about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    I know this is a relatively popular opinion but I don't mind it. It differentiates MCU Peter from the live-action Peters we've had before. It's not like he built the tech himself, we know where it came from.
    I'm fine with differences but not if it seems to work against the character, in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    Probably to avoid all the other stuff that could hurt or kill him
    Well, he can probably tank more than he could without it.

  3. #4368
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It is kind of funny to me that the first Watts movie basically portrays him without it so villains can keep getting the drop on him but then it proves narattively vital in the second movie.

    The Russo's were more subtle about it.
    Russos made you think Parker was still figuring out wtf the sense of danger really was.

    And then Watts never even mentioned it did he? Not even a single second if I remember correctly?
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  4. #4369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the only real issue was when they did it with Spider-Man. They've teched him out too much.
    The MCU version had to bridge the gap between 60's Peter Parker and The Aughts Peter Parker/Ben Parker, gearwise.

    MCU Pete made the Web Fluid and the Web Shooters.

    MCU Stark made the Spider Suit ( I remember all the fans wondering how Pete even did that given he can't sew in canon) and all the stuff that it took Pete at least 10 years in story ( and a regular job in a lab, IRRC) to make in the comics.

    And the Iron Spider Suit was always Tony's invention anyway.

  5. #4370
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Russos made you think Parker was still figuring out wtf the sense of danger really was.

    And then Watts never even mentioned it did he? Not even a single second if I remember correctly?
    Not in the first film no, but in the second one the "Peter tingle" plays a pretty big role.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #4371
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    I know this is a relatively popular opinion but I don't mind it. It differentiates MCU Peter from the live-action Peters we've had before. It's not like he built the tech himself, we know where it came from.
    I mean, he's fighting aliens. What's he supposed to do? Not wear the suit?

  7. #4372
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Yeah, in Civil War he seemed to have moments of seeming awareness like when Ant-Man was about to pop up or when Redwing (or Bucky?) are about to attack him from behind, but in Homecoming people kept getting the drop on him. But he also came off a lot less competent in Homecoming.

    Do people really put that much thought into Spider-Man's costume? It's usually just a simple onesie. Did Hank Pym or Janet design and personally make the Ant-Man and Wasp suits?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I mean, he's fighting aliens. What's he supposed to do? Not wear the suit?
    Does he need that specific suit to fight aliens?

  8. #4373
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, in Civil War he seemed to have moments of seeming awareness like when Ant-Man was about to pop up or when Redwing (or Bucky?) are about to attack him from behind, but in Homecoming people kept getting the drop on him. But he also came off a lot less competent in Homecoming.

    Do people really put that much thought into Spider-Man's costume? It's usually just a simple onesie. Did Hank Pym or Janet design and personally make the Ant-Man and Wasp suits?

    Does he need that specific suit to fight aliens?
    I think that's because homecoming was a superhero movie emulating a John Hughes movie. Pete was a good natured dummy. In fact if John Hughes had the chance to make a superhero movie, it probably would have been about Spider-Man. The iron spider suit would have helped Peter survive in space, I remember him being in the upper atmosphere or even out in space.

  9. #4374
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Perhaps. Hydra is in a rough spot, first with the War and then rebuilding within SHIELD and having to sneak resources away for their own R&D.

    But my point is that if Buck is a super soldier, then Hydra didn't have to develop it during those difficult years; they had already created it. So why didn't they capitalize on it? The serum was Hydra's main goal during the War, and something they never gave up on (as Siberia shows us), and with a successful super soldier in their grasp the idea that they couldn't make any more doesn't make sense to me.

    The only thing I can think of, and nothing in the films supports this that I can recall, is that Hydra *did* have some low-end super soldiers; the STRIKE team. Assuming Hydra changed the potency of the serum after those Siberian guys from Civil War, I guess it's possible they settled for soldiers with less strength but more self-control. Crossbones does do a better job against Steve than most non-powered people, and maybe that's due to a little extra juice in his veins and not *just* training and grit.

    But I don't think anything in the films ever even hints at this and I'm inferring connections that don't really exist.

    And my point about project Insight is that Hydra was able to manipulate the creation of three super helicarriers capable of wiping out millions of people per minute, and they did that under SHIELD's nose....but we're supposed to believe that they couldn't also create more super soldiers, even though they already had one?

    It's just a plot hole, but it's a gods damn big one.
    So, coming back to this since I thought we missed a big one; Isiah Bradley.

    From the first Cap movie, Bucky was also the only test subject in his room to survive. We can infer that after he fell of the train, Zola completed his transformation into a super soldier. The Red Skull also probably knew the serum better than Zola did.

    Meanwhile, the US govt was experimenting with limited amount of Steve's blood and made Isaiah a super soldier but was unable to replicate it with anyone else. How many failed test subjects were before and afterwards in the attempt to replicate the serum? How many people died?

    So if Hydra was racing to complete the serum, they probably faced the same problem. Either too many failed test subjects to the point it became impossible to cover up. After a while it probably just became a waste of times and resources and cheaper to keep reusing the one successful super soldier that they already had. Or use the infinity stones to grant superpowers.

    Even Howard Stark whose intelligence comparable to Stark and worked on the original experiment with Erskein, it took him 50 years to come up with a duplicate and even that one was botched since it turned their users insane.

    The guy who made the knock off serums in Falcon & Winter Soldier made a huge break through with the serums he created.

  10. #4375
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    The MCU version had to bridge the gap between 60's Peter Parker and The Aughts Peter Parker/Ben Parker, gearwise.

    MCU Pete made the Web Fluid and the Web Shooters.

    MCU Stark made the Spider Suit ( I remember all the fans wondering how Pete even did that given he can't sew in canon) and all the stuff that it took Pete at least 10 years in story ( and a regular job in a lab, IRRC) to make in the comics.

    And the Iron Spider Suit was always Tony's invention anyway.
    In the comics we do see him sew up his costume so presumably he has some sewing skills. Then later it was MJ fixing his suits. In the Ultimate universe, she was his High School best friend so she fixed it back then too. I think Raimi movies mentioned that Peter was good at sewing (I think it was Uncle Ben) and we later see him sketch his suit.

    JMS was the first to propose the idea of Peter admiring Tony Stark much like how geeks today idolize Elon Musk or Steve Jobs (who was alive when the comic was published) and Tony build the Iron Spider Suit. Of course, 616 Peter and Tony fell out hard and it never carried the same impact since Peter was a young adult then and not a teenager. I was expecting/hoping that MCU Peter would have a similar moment of disillusionment or moving on from Tony but that never materialized and now he's treated like IM's successor.

    I don't mind the tech'ed out suits during Avengers level threats but I would rather he wear a simple costume when he is out web swinging. The Scarlet Spider inspired hoodie look he wore to fight Vulture looked really good imo. I think they got a lot of other things right though, like Peter and MJ living in the projects instead of their own house, Peter's computer being something he re purposed from trash, his progressively more busted phone throughout Homecoming, him web fluid formula in his school chemistry lab but I think they got carried away at a certain point with the Iron Man homages. I think Homecoming was more balanced in that aspect. It was IW/EG that really blew it up and solidified the Iron Spider Lad thing.

  11. #4376
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    So, coming back to this since I thought we missed a big one; Isiah Bradley.
    Oh snap I forgot about Isiah. Yeah good catch.

    Okay, sure, that does help explain Hydra's problems recreating the serum. If SHIELD/government had problems recreating the serum from their samples of Steve's blood, then I can see Hydra having the same issue with Bucky.

    Yeah, that does help close up the plot hole. At least to a point anyway. I still think that if Zola managed to do it once with Buck back in the War then Hydra should have made more progress in their decades of secret research, but Isiah really does make the whole thing a little easier to swallow.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  12. #4377
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh snap I forgot about Isiah. Yeah good catch.

    Okay, sure, that does help explain Hydra's problems recreating the serum. If SHIELD/government had problems recreating the serum from their samples of Steve's blood, then I can see Hydra having the same issue with Bucky.

    Yeah, that does help close up the plot hole. At least to a point anyway. I still think that if Zola managed to do it once with Buck back in the War then Hydra should have made more progress in their decades of secret research, but Isiah really does make the whole thing a little easier to swallow.
    I can see Skull keeping the secrets of the formula to himself but Zola pieces together enough to complete Bucky's transformation.

  13. #4378
    Extraordinary Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
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    So Episode 8 of What If?... Firstly I want to say I am currently suffering with two blocked ears atm so I can barely hear stuff so I am extremely grateful to Disney+ for having solid subtitles. Even so I could tell they picked a good alternate to James Spader for Ultron. Anyway....

    spoilers:
    We have a genuine two-parter! First off this episode felt a tad lazy in establishing why Ultron-Vision has access to all the Infinity Stones, casually killing Thanos before he can do anything feels like bad writing when we see him literally attacking the same places he would have gotten the Stones in the next few scenes. I feel like this was only done to get around the issue of getting access to the Soul Stone since presumably Ultron-Vision wouldn't have anything to sacrifice on Volmir. But I think it would have been more interesting if they used the first episode to show him gradually getting the Stones and maybe fighting Thanos for them, which would have been more epic. It's somewhat made up for with a fun Ultron-Vision vs Watcher fight, which I thought was pretty epic. I like how they managed to feature the universe they wanted to with the President Steve Rogers reality. Utau's increasing desperation here is well done, and I like how he returns to Supreme Strange at the end - possibly the best one to fight Ultron-Vision at this stage with Utau's help?

    The plotline with Natasha and Clint was well done though it's completely overshadowed by the Utau stuff. I like the fact they managed to sneak in the awesome Red Guardian shield and getting Zola-Ultron as an unlikely ally was bemusing, Toby seemed to enjoy himself. Hope he's in the next episode! Clint's sacrifice was also suitably heartbreaking and probably the best alternate death in the show so far (felt like it had weight for once). I feel like this story would have been better if they'd let the final two-parter be an hour each episode so they could do this reality's story properly and save the bulk of the Multiverse Avengers stuff for an equally epic finale.
    end of spoilers

  14. #4379
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    So Episode 8 of What If?... Firstly I want to say I am currently suffering with two blocked ears atm so I can barely hear stuff so I am extremely grateful to Disney+ for having solid subtitles. Even so I could tell they picked a good alternate to James Spader for Ultron. Anyway....
    I agree with your review. Really fun, solid episode...but some quick and dirty work arounds that don't satisfy. There's also some contradictions regarding how....certain items....work beyond their own reality. But the episode was still a ton of fun, and the flaws are easy to forgive because it's What If and while (I guess?) it's "technically" MCU multiverse canon, it still feels disconnected enough to play by its own rules. I feel like it hit a nice balance between the comedy focused episodes and the dark ones; this episode was definitely heavy, but it didn't feel as joyless as some of the others. Next week must be the finale right?

    Surprised there's not more talk about it here, honestly.

    Hope your ears feel better.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  15. #4380
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I've learned that to some degree the What If's benefit a lot from not thinking about the changes and plot developments too much .

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