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  1. #4246
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Oh, I do think the Flag Smashers were murderers. I don't think there's any question about that. I guess that Flag Smasher saying "It wasn't me" sounded like somebody who already gave up fighting. Just my opinion. I kinda wish that Flag Smasher actually tried to "fake" a surrender and try to pull a fast one on Walker. It would have made the Flag Smashers a more cunning and dedicated organization than they appeared to be (in my eyes). I mean they were terrorists but also not really hardcore ones from what I saw in the show (like a weird combination of the Habitat for Humanity and the Weather Underground). The terrorists I see on television seem a hell of a lot nastier.
    They tried to do them differently so they weren't stereotypical freedom fighter type terrorist. Even casting a black? biracial? female lead who wasn't very physically imposing nor scary was a way to be "different"

    But they didn't spend enough type with them to flesh them out enough to make the competing narratives feel earned.

    Frankly, if they just didn't have Karli burn down that building, it would have worked better. They jumped the shark there big time and made it so there was no way the audience could relaly feel sorry for them.

    As entertaining as zemo was... they need to throw away that sublot (which would have thrown away Sharon's crap) so they could streamline and focus on the main narrative with the flagsmashers instead of taking a side mission to set up future stuff.
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  2. #4247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Usually because they're focused on other things presently, in my opinion, and I don't think having villains with causes demeans real, good, people with causes at all, since the people who use those methods aren't depicted as being in a right to use them while their intentions are at least understood.
    But when it's mostly or only the villains who care about anything, it doesn't send a good message. Why not have one of the heroes try to stand up for something, and the villain be the one who's against it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    1...Because Sam was the one yelling at Bucky. What...should the cop ask the agitated guy who is yelling if he is being bothered by the guy just trying to walk down the street.

    2...Yes..that is how it was in the past...but there are generals who are black as well as highly placed people throughout the government including the current Secretary of Defense. The racial issues of the 1940s when Isiah was screwed over are not the same as are being faced today.
    People yell at each all the time in the streets. But Black people always get more attention from the police when anything happens.

    And those racial issues from the 1940s still have an affect today. And police harassment is an example of racial issues being faced today

  3. #4248
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Has Shang Chi broken even yet?
    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

    Credit for avatar goes to zclark

  4. #4249
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    Has Shang Chi broken even yet?
    Here is some talk about shang chi here.
    Shang-Chi Tops Box Office 3rd Week In A Row

  5. #4250
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    But when it's mostly or only the villains who care about anything, it doesn't send a good message. Why not have one of the heroes try to stand up for something, and the villain be the one who's against it?
    There are those stories too. But I don't think it's a convincing argument that the heroes don't care.

  6. #4251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    There are those stories too. But I don't think it's a convincing argument that the heroes don't care.
    It's not that they don't care. It's that their storylines aren't as often motivated by actually changing society as much as the villains want to.

  7. #4252
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    It's not that they don't care. It's that their storylines aren't as often motivated by actually changing society as much as the villains want to.
    Well, I think the villains feel they have more of a luxury to radically change the world than the heroes do.

  8. #4253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, I think the villains feel they have more of a luxury to radically change the world than the heroes do.
    Yeah, but if the world isn't perfect, there's a lot of villains who'd prefer to keep things as they are as well

  9. #4254
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    They guy just said that he wasn't the one who killed Lemar. And yes...John did a lot of nasty stuff in the military. That is a conversation that he and Lemar were having and how it affected him.

    I think there was a lot of bad writing in the series. John had his moments but was not really handled well overall (IMO). And I like your comment about making the FS nastier...trying to make them sympathetic was a mistake (again IMO)

    And too many times they fed into simplistic reasoning. Sam and Sarah don't get the loan? Racism. Not a legitimate reason of what the changes to the rules were that the loan officer told them. I would assume with the need to produce the most food in the shortest amount of time they would be focusing on ramping up larger scale businesses and not mom and pop operations like a single fishing boat.

    The cop hassles Sam? Racism. Not because the cop has seen multiple arguments in the street degenerate into violence and maybe even murder and is trying to get in there to calm stuff down...and Sam's attitude of "what're you hassling me for, man." really didn't help.

    Isiah's comment about how a black man wouldn't wear the colors? There are hundred of thousands or even millions of service members and veterans that would disagree with that.

    Sam saying 'don't call them terrorist'? That's what they are. I get he wants to see the best in people and that is something I like about him...but once buildings start getting blown up and people start getting killed that ship has sailed.

    But maybe that is just me and I want more complex and nuanced story telling.
    I think nuance, complexity and even subtlety is great in storytelling. But I don't think it's too reasonable in a superhero/comic book context. Especially when Disney's running things. Yeah, I enjoy bitching about things I don't like, but I understand that the MCU is meant to largely entertain. So I accept that there will be some superficiality and shallowness when it comes to these shows and movies. PBS is airing a documentary on Muhammed Ali right now. If you want depth, you'll get it there. I would actually prefer it if "villains" have sympathetic motivations, but shitty ways of trying to achieve their goals. I do think Falcon and the Winter Soldier needed the Flag Smashers to be more compelling in order for it to be a better show. The other stuff is not as important. I get that the series was trying to make the Flag Smashers to be sympathetic, but it felt weird to me. They were really violent AND bland at the same time. I think it would have helped if the series had some flashbacks to show what life was like for the Flag Smashers after Infinity War. It has been said "one reason the Flag-Smashers didn't connect with most viewers is because we didn't really see them doing much outside their fight scenes; everything about them and their motivation was delivered in monotonous exposition and dialogue that just stated facts rather than showing us story." I think ALL of the Marvel Disney Plus shows have been guilty of "explaining things" too much. And in ways that are REALLY boring.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 09-22-2021 at 11:49 AM.

  10. #4255
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    They tried to do them differently so they weren't stereotypical freedom fighter type terrorist. Even casting a black? biracial? female lead who wasn't very physically imposing nor scary was a way to be "different"

    But they didn't spend enough type with them to flesh them out enough to make the competing narratives feel earned.

    Frankly, if they just didn't have Karli burn down that building, it would have worked better. They jumped the shark there big time and made it so there was no way the audience could relaly feel sorry for them.

    As entertaining as zemo was... they need to throw away that sublot (which would have thrown away Sharon's crap) so they could streamline and focus on the main narrative with the flagsmashers instead of taking a side mission to set up future stuff.
    I thought the whole Madripoor Zemo/Sharon subplots were pointless. More time was needed to be spent on the Flag Smashers. I actually think Bucky need some more love too. But I think Marvel wanted to tease the X-Men to entice more viewers.

  11. #4256
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Eh, I feel like people miss the part with John.

    It isn't that he killed a terrorist. Whatever, no big deal honestly.

    It is that he killed a terrorist WHILE IN THE UNIFORM. He was Captain America, he has higher standards. He is a symbol... chasing an unarmed dude down in a foreign country and killing him in the middle of the street surrounded by people watching isn't Captain America.

    Hell, even a regular solider can't blow a person away in the middle of a city who has his hands up. (only american cops can get away with that shit lol....)

    Bucky and Sam afterwards didn't go, "you are going the jail." They simply said give up the shield (aka uniform) because he failed as a symbol.

    John didn't go to jail afterwards for murder, he was discharged from the military.

    No one cared he killed a terrorist. They cared how he did it while being Captain America.
    Yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying. I think the show wanted to demonstrate how any halfway decent Captain America would not do what Walker did. Steve and Sam absolutely wouldn't. What confused me is that Sam pretty much defended terrorism later on in the show. I felt that Wilson would have NEVER done that in previous MCU productions.

  12. #4257
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    Sam's reaction to the terrorists was a bit odd. It's fine for him to agree with their ideals but Karli murdered people, including Lemar, so acting like they weren't terrorists is not really right. The problem is they acted villainous, so if they had been more measured and used less violent methods, Sam's response would've been more appropriate.

    And tbh, the USA has a history of brutality continuing to this day, so a guy wearing a superhero costume based on that country and using excessive force isn't really unexpected.

  13. #4258
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying. I think the show wanted to demonstrate how any halfway decent Captain America would not do what Walker did. Steve and Sam absolutely wouldn't. What confused me is that Sam pretty much defended terrorism later on in the show. I felt that Wilson would have NEVER done that in previous MCU productions.
    They wanted to show that he was compassionate and not walker so much they pushed a touch too far IMHO

    I also think Sam should have been force dto kill Karli instead of copping that out to Sharon. Part of being captain america is tough choices and dealing with those tough choices.

    The power broker thing was a complete miss lol

    (and I liked the show overall)
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  14. #4259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I think nuance, complexity and even subtlety is great in storytelling. But I don't think it's too reasonable in a superhero/comic book context. Especially when Disney's running things. Yeah, I enjoy bitching about things I don't like, but I understand that the MCU is meant to largely entertain. So I accept that there will be some superficiality and shallowness when it comes to these shows and movies. PBS is airing a documentary on Muhammed Ali right now. If you want depth, you'll get it there. I would actually prefer it if "villains" have sympathetic motivations, but shitty ways of trying to achieve their goals. I do think Falcon and the Winter Soldier needed the Flag Smashers to be more compelling in order for it to be a better show. The other stuff is not as important. I get that the series was trying to make the Flag Smashers to be sympathetic, but it felt weird to me. They were really violent AND bland at the same time. I think it would have helped if the series had some flashbacks to show what life was like for the Flag Smashers after Infinity War. It has been said "one reason the Flag-Smashers didn't connect with most viewers is because we didn't really see them doing much outside their fight scenes; everything about them and their motivation was delivered in monotonous exposition and dialogue that just stated facts rather than showing us story." I think ALL of the Marvel Disney Plus shows have been guilty of "explaining things" too much. And in ways that are REALLY boring.
    When I was younger it didn't matter so much to me...but where I'm at now I get more enjoyment out of deeper characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    They wanted to show that he was compassionate and not walker so much they pushed a touch too far IMHO

    I also think Sam should have been forced to kill Karli instead of copping that out to Sharon. Part of being captain america is tough choices and dealing with those tough choices.

    The power broker thing was a complete miss lol

    (and I liked the show overall)
    That would have been interesting.

  15. #4260
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    They wanted to show that he was compassionate and not walker so much they pushed a touch too far IMHO

    I also think Sam should have been force dto kill Karli instead of copping that out to Sharon. Part of being captain america is tough choices and dealing with those tough choices.

    The power broker thing was a complete miss lol

    (and I liked the show overall)
    I wasn't thrilled with the finale of Falcon and the Winter Soldier. In fact, I wasn't thrilled with the finales of WandaVision and Loki either. I get what you're saying about Sam and that would have been some compelling television, but one of the things I did like about the final episode of Falcon and the Winter Soldier is that he actually saved people. He didn't "beat up the final video game boss", but rescued a bunch of people from that helicopter. Mind you, Stark rescuing those passengers and crew from Air Force One in Iron Man 3 was in my opinion much more creative and funnier, but I appreciated what the show's writers were trying to do there. And I agree with you and Mik that Sam probably went a bit too far in sympathizing with terrorists. But again, I do think Sam was meant to be portrayed as a compassionate guy. Didn't really work though, at least for me.

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