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  1. #11401
    Mighty Member ComicNoobie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I've seen a lot of people defending the current MCU as saying this saga is structured more like the comics. Just a bunch of stories all over the place. Well, let's be honest. It's REALLY not people's cup of tea. I think the MCU would benefit massively if they returned to what they did during the Infinity Saga. Make things a little bit more streamlined and focused. But I don't see ANY of that happening. Marvel Studios execs seem highly intent on creating a sprawling cinematic universe like the comics and if they continue on this course, I think their brand will be ruined in the next few years.
    It's why some are not invested in everything and picking and choosing what to view poste Endgame. As the MCU makes more new characters in new corners of the world it's going to be harder to justify them all leading to one big story at the end of each phase. Like for example, everyone is speculating the next phase will be mutants. Who will be the big bad? Probably Mr. Sinister or Magneto. Thing is you don't need the entire Marvel lineup to handle them. The X-Men are enough, so really there's no reason to include teams like the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Guardians, Midnight Suns, or whoever else they have around to help fight them. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't make projects with those other teams in it and give them there own big bad more suited for them.

    I understand why that's harder for more casual audiences to get. Like having a street level team, a supernatural team, a cosmic, a mutant team, a more traditional Avengers team can be seen as a lot. It's certainly sizeable in the comics to the point dozens of them are in limbo. But I also feel we're getting to the point where they need to make other teamups for these characters especially if they are "playing it safe" Like honestly I don't think they even needed the entire Marvel Multiverse to handle Kang. Has Kang ever truly been that guy who needs the entire Marvel-verse to rally behind to defeat? People complain Ant-Man beat him, when you have source material of Captain America beating him too.

  2. #11402
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    Most of the MCU before during the Infinity Saga were unconnected stories that didn't have much to do with each other.
    This isn't a new thing, I don't understand why people act like it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I can't believe there are still people who think the MCU problem is being too woke after they built Doctor Strange 2 around the old "women can't be trusted with power because motherhood makes them irrational" trope that was already called out when Avengers Disassembled did it. They've trashed or fridged most of their top female characters. It's like Peltz is the only person living who saw the Girl Power shot in Avengers: Endgame and didn't recognize it for the cynical nonsense it was.

    The MCU has made a lot of mistakes lately and some of their bad work has a touch of preachiness about it, but their preachiest franchise is probably Black Panther and that's one of the ones that is still doing all right (despite the loss of Chadwick Boseman). That's not their problem.
    The idea Multiverse of Madness was pushing the idea woman can't be trusted with power is just not true, it's genuinely nonsense to think that because Multiverse of Madness in general was showing power corrupts in general, we see two versions of Doctor Strange himself who were corrupted by power, couldn't be trusted with it and ended up destroying their or other universes.
    This idea only works if you just ignore every about the movie beyond Wanda.

    And the idea they've "trashed" and "fridged" the top females is also not true, characters the only character who can even slightly apply is Widow, meanwhile Captain Marvel, Kamala, Monica, Mantis, She-Hulk, Nebula, Gamora, etc are all still around, while they haven't even gotten around to introducing characters like Sue Storm and the X-Men yet.

  3. #11403
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomBoom View Post
    The idea Multiverse of Madness was pushing the idea woman can't be trusted with power is just not true, it's genuinely nonsense to think that because Multiverse of Madness in general was showing power corrupts in general, we see two versions of Doctor Strange himself who were corrupted by power, couldn't be trusted with it and ended up destroying their or other universes.
    This idea only works if you just ignore every about the movie beyond Wanda.

    And the idea they've "trashed" and "fridged" the top females is also not true, characters the only character who can even slightly apply is Widow, meanwhile Captain Marvel, Kamala, Monica, Mantis, She-Hulk, Nebula, Gamora, etc are all still around, while they haven't even gotten around to introducing characters like Sue Storm and the X-Men yet.
    If they had had Doctor Strange get corrupted and run around murdering people to get Christine back, that might be a point, but we were mostly just told about it. What we saw onscreen was the same thing as in Avengers Disassembled and House of M, as Wanda being dangerous because she wants babies. There was no theme of power corrupting because we didn't see anyone get corrupted onscreen, it was just a movie about a crazy woman.

    It's part of the whole MCU thing where they can't envision a female hero who isn't a girlboss. WandaVision got the source of Wanda's appeal, which is that she is an incredibly powerful person who wants a normal life with a home and family, and MoM turned that strength into a weakness just like those 2000s comic stories did.

    Not that they've handled their girlboss characters much better. Carol and Monica may not have been trashed as obviously as Wanda, but Carol wasn't even allowed to have her name in the sequel (the first MCU solo hero that's happened to) and was expected to carry a team-up movie with two characters who were mostly new to the audience. They were making it much harder for the movie to succeed, and it didn't succeed.

    The women aren't the only ones they've handled badly, but from Wanda to the fridging of Maria Hill, there's a pattern.

  4. #11404
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    If they had had Doctor Strange get corrupted and run around murdering people to get Christine back, that might be a point, but we were mostly just told about it. What we saw onscreen was the same thing as in Avengers Disassembled and House of M, as Wanda being dangerous because she wants babies. There was no theme of power corrupting because we didn't see anyone get corrupted onscreen, it was just a movie about a crazy woman.

    It's part of the whole MCU thing where they can't envision a female hero who isn't a girlboss. WandaVision got the source of Wanda's appeal, which is that she is an incredibly powerful person who wants a normal life with a home and family, and MoM turned that strength into a weakness just like those 2000s comic stories did.

    Not that they've handled their girlboss characters much better. Carol and Monica may not have been trashed as obviously as Wanda, but Carol wasn't even allowed to have her name in the sequel (the first MCU solo hero that's happened to) and was expected to carry a team-up movie with two characters who were mostly new to the audience. They were making it much harder for the movie to succeed, and it didn't succeed.

    The women aren't the only ones they've handled badly, but from Wanda to the fridging of Maria Hill, there's a pattern.
    See this is what I mean, we're shown onscreen two different versions of Doctor Strange who went mad to power and ended destroying universes, and we're told constantly our version of Doctor Strange is at risk of becoming like them, one of them is even an antagonist who fights the main Doctor Strange.
    It's why the Illuminati are so distrusting of him, who themselves are examples of people buying too much into their own hype.

    To just make it out that the movie is pushing a message that women are crazy and can't be trusted with power, only works if you ignore everything else that happens in the movie besides Wanda.

    Heck one of the reasons Wanda was defeated was because America Chavez a woman was being trusted as the person best equipped to use her power, which we are repeatedly told is one of the most dangerous powers in the multiverse.


    What is a "girlboss" is even supposed to be?
    This just sounds like throwing around buzzwords for the sake of it.
    Like Monica supposed to be a girlboss?
    Her character is being a nerdy woman who's dealing with the trauma of her mother dying and feeling abandoned by her aunt, like how is that supposed to be a girlboss?

    I don't even see how Wanda was supposed be a "girlboss", when her apparent greatest desire is to be a housewife and mother.

  5. #11405
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComicNoobie View Post
    It's why some are not invested in everything and picking and choosing what to view poste Endgame. As the MCU makes more new characters in new corners of the world it's going to be harder to justify them all leading to one big story at the end of each phase. Like for example, everyone is speculating the next phase will be mutants. Who will be the big bad? Probably Mr. Sinister or Magneto. Thing is you don't need the entire Marvel lineup to handle them. The X-Men are enough, so really there's no reason to include teams like the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Guardians, Midnight Suns, or whoever else they have around to help fight them. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't make projects with those other teams in it and give them there own big bad more suited for them.

    I understand why that's harder for more casual audiences to get. Like having a street level team, a supernatural team, a cosmic, a mutant team, a more traditional Avengers team can be seen as a lot. It's certainly sizeable in the comics to the point dozens of them are in limbo. But I also feel we're getting to the point where they need to make other teamups for these characters especially if they are "playing it safe" Like honestly I don't think they even needed the entire Marvel Multiverse to handle Kang. Has Kang ever truly been that guy who needs the entire Marvel-verse to rally behind to defeat? People complain Ant-Man beat him, when you have source material of Captain America beating him too.
    I would prefer to watch each and every MCU project if at all possible. And Marvel Studios made that easier by releasing a couple of two-hour movies a year for most of the Infinity Saga. It wasn't THAT hard to follow, at least for me. And they did a pretty good job of focusing on the main three Avengers, while giving lots to do for the supporting characters. Every MCU movie was pretty autonomous, but there were definitely connections with the wider MCU in each of them (which made them fun in my opinion). But even with the last couple of Avengers films, Marvel Studios had trouble integrating so many characters together. We didn't even see Bruce's transformation into Smart Hulk! Being an OG Avenger, he should have fought with Iron Man, Captain America and Thor in that final battle with Thanos. They even had to remove Scott and Clint in Infinity War because there were so many characters in that film. Like, how many Avengers will be in the next couple of Avenger films? It's just too much. The MCU can't jungle that many of them at this point. And that makes it a lot less enjoyable for me to watch. But it's like Marvel execs aren't even thinking about that right now. They just keep introducing more. And you could definitely make the argument that Strange 2, Thor 4, Ant-Man 3 and Secret Invasion made their starring characters LESS popular in the past three years. To me, that's crazy.

    I personally don't think Marvel audiences want the MCU to have more teams than the NFL. Look at the box office results and streaming numbers. Supply and demand. Marvel is flooding the zone with projects, and there isn't enough demand for them. I'm just mad that Captain Marvel probably won't finish up her trilogy, and Marvel Studios is diverting its attention to other things that likely won't go anywhere. I would much rather watch a Hulk and/or Rhodey project soon (they don't have to be the headliners, but they would have significant roles in them) than more stuff like Echo, Ironheart, Agatha, and Wonder Man. I don't mind those characters getting vehicles to star in, but as I've said before Marvel should focus more on the characters they already introduced more than a decade ago. Finish their stories first. Those other characters can star in stuff later on. Do casual audiences remember the name of a single Eternal? They need some more love. But we're getting the Fantastic Four and mutants. So it's just becoming a big blur. I don't think the execs working at Marvel Studios should be fired. I want them to change their strategy of storytelling, but they don't seem to want to.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 03-24-2024 at 12:31 PM.

  6. #11406
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhantomBoom View Post
    See this is what I mean, we're shown onscreen two different versions of Doctor Strange who went mad to power and ended destroying universes, and we're told constantly our version of Doctor Strange is at risk of becoming like them, one of them is even an antagonist who fights the main Doctor Strange.
    It's why the Illuminati are so distrusting of him, who themselves are examples of people buying too much into their own hype.

    To just make it out that the movie is pushing a message that women are crazy and can't be trusted with power, only works if you ignore everything else that happens in the movie besides Wanda.

    Heck one of the reasons Wanda was defeated was because America Chavez a woman was being trusted as the person best equipped to use her power, which we are repeatedly told is one of the most dangerous powers in the multiverse.


    What is a "girlboss" is even supposed to be?
    This just sounds like throwing around buzzwords for the sake of it.
    Like Monica supposed to be a girlboss?
    Her character is being a nerdy woman who's dealing with the trauma of her mother dying and feeling abandoned by her aunt, like how is that supposed to be a girlboss?

    I don't even see how Wanda was supposed be a "girlboss", when her apparent greatest desire is to be a housewife and mother.
    “Girlboss” is too vague I agree, but Wanda definitely is not a girlboss, for the reasons you mentioned. She’s an old-fashioned character and so it never occurred to the MCU people that she could be a flagship hero or that Avengers Disassembled/House of M could be considered sexist portrayals.

    ItÂ’s true they showed that in theory what happened to Wanda could happen to Strange, but it didnÂ’t & wouldnÂ’t. It happened to Wanda because they considered her expendable & so unimportant they didnÂ’t even need to show her downfall.

  7. #11407
    Astonishing Member Thirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I can't believe there are still people who think the MCU problem is being too woke after they built Doctor Strange 2 around the old "women can't be trusted with power because motherhood makes them irrational" trope that was already called out when Avengers Disassembled did it. They've trashed or fridged most of their top female characters. It's like Peltz is the only person living who saw the Girl Power shot in Avengers: Endgame and didn't recognize it for the cynical nonsense it was.

    The MCU has made a lot of mistakes lately and some of their bad work has a touch of preachiness about it, but their preachiest franchise is probably Black Panther and that's one of the ones that is still doing all right (despite the loss of Chadwick Boseman). That's not their problem.
    What is BLACK PANTHER/WAKANDA FOREVER preaching?
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  8. #11408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    What is BLACK PANTHER/WAKANDA FOREVER preaching?
    I mean among other things, the importance of solidarity, breaking the cycle of violence and foreswearing revenge, not turning a blind eye to what is going on outside your country... I don't think there are any bad messages in the films, but I think they are concerned with having a good message.

    Maybe "preachy" is the wrong word for that, but since the franchise is one of the MCU's strongest at the moment I didn't intend it as an insult.

  9. #11409
    Astonishing Member Thirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I mean among other things, the importance of solidarity, breaking the cycle of violence and foreswearing revenge, not turning a blind eye to what is going on outside your country... I don't think there are any bad messages in the films, but I think they are concerned with having a good message.

    Maybe "preachy" is the wrong word for that, but since the franchise is one of the MCU's strongest at the moment I didn't intend it as an insult.
    Ah, superheroes as morality tales? "With great power comes, great responsibility" and all that...
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  10. #11410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thirteen View Post
    Ah, superheroes as morality tales? "With great power comes, great responsibility" and all that...
    Sure, and the MCU movies often soft-pedal (or is it soft-peddle?) that aspect of superheroes and play up the other side of Marvel, heroes as self-absorbed bunglers who do the right thing in the end. Coogler is playing up the morality-play aspect and the public doesn't seem to mind.

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