Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

[Albert1981]

The Delta variant had next to zero impact on moviegoers as the last weeks have shown. Other movies like Free Guy also did well during the Delta variant rise so that theory can be put to rest. There are people who avoid theatres because of the virus but these people did so in July as much as they do now, whereas most people who didn't care in July also don't care now. Nothing points to the Delta variant having a big impact.

What is a big factor that can't be denied although you were nonetheless completely ignoring it in your posting is the parallel release on Disney+, and therefore one can't make a fair comparison of their respective box office results. But if you want to compare them it may be surprising to you that even with theatrical exclusivity Shang-Chi will barely beat Black Widow's worldwide box office as BW did better overseas, but of course most media coverage is only mentioning the US result to paint their preferred picture.

As things stand BW will likely turn out more profit (including Disney+ PA) for Disney than Shang-Chi (at least as long as we are ignoring a potentially expensive lawsuit ), so much for it being a disappointment.

Here's how: Minus the share of theater owners and streaming device producers BW has brought in roughly 300 million USD to Disney's pockets. To reach the same amount Shang-Chi would need a box office of at least 550 million, which is completely out of the cards (barring a miraculous China release), it will land at 450 million worldwide at best.

Yeah, I forgot about the simultaneous streaming and theatre release. Marvel shouldn't have done that. Aren't Shang-Chi and Black Widow the top two performing movies of all of 2021 thus far? That's what I've read. Black Widow did well. I guess my view is that hardly anybody outside of the comic book reading community knows who the hell Shang-Chi is. Practically everybody who loves superhero movies knows who Natasha is by now. So I think Simu's movie overperformed. To ME there's just this weird miasma surrounding Black Widow that saddens me. Maybe it's because of ScarJo's lawsuit against Disney, the vibe is kinda negative to me. Black Widow, of all MCU characters, did NOT need to be involved in a huge CGI spectacle in the third act! She doesn't have any superpowers. That's one of the best parts of her character! And Marvel's villain "problem" came back with a vengeance in this movie. To me Dreykov was a weird combination of Jeffrey Epstein and Don Corleone. And Natasha's "mother" Vostokov felt like the MCU's answer to Ghislaine Maxwell (how is what she did in her past any better than Wanda's alleged crimes). I just wish Natasha had an epic fight (without too much CGI) at the end of the movie with the Taskmaster (I don't care about the gender swap. But Taskmaster at the beginning of the movie clearly had a dick. So my expectations were not "subverted"). There was a lot of potential unfulfilled in Black Widow. Black Widow's cast was probably the most talented one of any MCU movie. I also hated the fallopian tube and uterus jokes (Feige and Whedon can be blamed for those indirectly). Those quips were strange to me. I'm not saying I didn't like Black Widow (I did). I thought ScarJo gave her best MCU performance by far, and it was a pretty solid picture. Speaking for myself, I was disappointed. I will say Marvel/Disney has mastered de-aging technology brilliantly however. The fake family looked great at the beginning of the picture.

[CosmiComic]

I know but he was so front-and-center it felt like his relationships and connection to the Pyms took over the plot.

I know. But just in practice...

Yeah, in practice it should be more even.

I feel like that's missing a lot of the nuances with Sam and Bucky that got expanded on in FaTWS but to each their own. MCU Peter is problematic in his own right and doesn't have the most distinct Spider-Man personality but that's a whole different subject.

I don't see much nuance in Sam and Bucky, tbh. I feel like fans over-complain about Peter in the MCU while give Sam's and Bucky's lack of personality and characterization a free pass. I personally can't see how Peter doesn't have a distinct personality but Sam and Bucky are nuanced.

I thought her characterization was pretty consistent and developed from movie-to-movie. I just don't think she's the kind of character you're into.

She's not the character I'm into because I don't feel her characterization is consistent. On paper she has potential so I'd care more about her if the execution actually followed through

If Hope's going to be the main Wasp, then I think it's fair to compare her to Janet since she's the only other main Wasp.

That's like comparing MCU Scott to comics Hank. That's not quite fair at all so I don't agree about that. Even at that, i don't think she's a bad character, just underdeveloped. IMO she had more consistent development between movies than Natasha.

[Frontier]

I don't see much nuance in Sam and Bucky, tbh. I feel like fans over-complain about Peter in the MCU while give Sam's and Bucky's lack of personality and characterization a free pass. I personally can't see how Peter doesn't have a distinct personality but Sam and Bucky are nuanced.

I think Sam and Bucky have defined personalities that they've developed over the course of their appearances. I mean, part of the issue with Bucky is going from FA Bucky to WS Bucky where he's basically a Terminator and then CW where he's still recovering from that and trying to be Bucky again, which continues in each of his subsequent appearances up until FaTWS.

I think MCU Peter has a personality it just gets overshadowed by other things and doesn't stand out as well compared to other interpretations of Spidey.

She's not the character I'm into because I don't feel her characterization is consistent. On paper she has potential so I'd care more about her if the execution actually followed through

I'm just not seeing the lack of consistency. She's probably had the most present character arc in the MCU, when you think about it.

That's like comparing MCU Scott to comics Hank. That's not quite fair at all so I don't agree about that. Even at that, i don't think she's a bad character, just underdeveloped. IMO she had more consistent development between movies than Natasha.

I feel it's a different situation though. I mean, I guess you could compare MCU Scott to comic Hank as Ant-Man since they share the same identity but given Hope's prominence in the MCU in place of Jan we can only really compare her to comic Jan. And to me she comes off as lacking.

[Wiccan]

Yeah I don't see what's supposedly so inconsistent about Natasha. Never saw that criticism either. The only thing that I guess is close to that is the random relationship with Bruce.

[Alpha]

I think MCU Peter has a personality it just gets overshadowed by other things and doesn't stand out as well compared to other interpretations of Spidey.

Wait what? There's a reason why people say that Tom Holland actually feels like a teenager, and it's not just because he's short. The dude expresses himless like his age. Even his big kiss with MJ at the end of Far From Home is one awkward peck on the lips followed by a more proper but still soft kiss. Because Peter probably never kissed anyone before even though he never mentions that factor. They areacting their asses off.

The dude makes a video blog about his fight in Civil War that he never even gets to share with anyone. He goes from calling Star Wars "a really old movie" to becoming a fan and collecting lego Death Stars. Not to mention that he has the funniest quips and taunts out of every live action Spider-man.

What makes you say that the other versions of Spider-man have more personality (not that I dislike them)


And can someone explain to me how Ant-man and the Wasp can be more balanced in your view? Because 80% of the plot is centered around Hank and Hope, the emotional stakes rest on their shoulders, and most of the actions and solutions are performed by them. Hope is a force of action in nearly all the fights apart from when Scott becomes Gigantic, and she is the one that saves him from drowning. What could they have done differently?

[Frontier]

Wait what? There's a reason why people say that Tom Holland actually feels like a teenager, and it's not just because he's short. The dude expresses himless like his age. Even his big kiss with MJ at the end of Far From Home is one awkward peck on the lips followed by a more proper but still soft kiss. Because Peter probably never kissed anyone before even though he never mentions that factor. They areacting their asses off.

The dude makes a video blog about his fight in Civil War that he never even gets to share with anyone. He goes from calling Star Wars "a really old movie" to becoming a fan and collecting lego Death Stars. Not to mention that he has the funniest quips and taunts out of every live action Spider-man.

What makes you say that the other versions of Spider-man have more personality (not that I dislike them)

He's the most believable as a teenager but he has very little actual personality as Spider-Man and so often lacks Peter's trademark sass or neurosis in favor of playing an overly-excited teenage Superhero pastiche or just being the straightman to everyone.

And can someone explain to me how Ant-man and the Wasp can be more balanced in your view? Because 80% of the plot is centered around Hank and Hope, the emotional stakes rest on their shoulders, and most of the actions and solutions are performed by them. Hope is a force of action in nearly all the fights apart from when Scott becomes Gigantic, and she is the one that saves him from drowning. What could they have done differently?

More screentime with them that didn't involve Scott.

[CosmiComic]

While Peter is somewhat different from the comics, I'm not exactly sure how much neurosis he's supposed to have. He's obviously going to be somewhat different in the MCU as it is.

I can't really see what well-defined personality Bucky has outside of saying "Steve's always right". Sam only has a bit more after FaWS but he's still lacking to me.

As for Natasha, I feel she's inconsistent because I never saw where she came from, and her character decisions in CA:WS, AoU and CA:CW seem out of sync. I don't see a clear evolution.

I can get why some would find Hope lacking, but I still don't compare her to Jan because she's not the same

[Ascended]

I think Sam and Bucky have defined personalities that they've developed over the course of their appearances. I mean, part of the issue with Bucky is going from FA Bucky to WS Bucky where he's basically a Terminator and then CW where he's still recovering from that and trying to be Bucky again, which continues in each of his subsequent appearances up until FaTWS.

Yeah, Bucky looks inconsistent because of the brain washing, but I was impressed with Stan's performance in F&tWS. Largely by happenstance, I ended up watching all of Bucky's appearances shortly after F&tWS ended and you can absolutely see character development and growth there. But looking at the surface Bucky seems thinly developed and inconsistent. And we all know that Sam had no real personality to speak of beyond a couple basic "soldier archetype" traits until the show hit. But F&tWS did a good job of expanding his character. He's not as developed as most MCU headliners....but this was the first time Sam got to headline and they did a lot of good work there. Cap 4 is going to accomplish even more.

Don't get me wrong, Sam and Bucky still aren't terribly developed characters (Sam especially). The show did a ton of work digging into them as people and bringing their personalities out from Steve's shadow, but there's a lot of work yet to do.

I think MCU Peter has a personality it just gets overshadowed by other things and doesn't stand out as well compared to other interpretations of Spidey.

Don't agree with this one. I think maybe your dislike of Tony's influence on MCU Parker might be clouding your judgement here? Like, I could drop lines of dialogue and we'd all be able to identify who said them.

I think Holland stands roughly equal with Tobey, as far as personality development goes, and is more developed than Garfield (who didn't have much going on beyond the "dorkable" thing and dead gf angst).

Hope's prominence in the MCU in place of Jan we can only really compare her to comic Jan. And to me she comes off as lacking.

I agree. I like Hope, but she's largely just a straight man/boss lady archetype with mommy issues, and little else. Of course, she hasn't had a ton of screen time either, especially time devoted to exploring her personality. More than anyone else in the Ant-Man films, she's driven by the needs of the plot. But her character is consistent as hell and has seen continued growth, and now that Janet is back and Hope's primary driver is resolved, I look forward to seeing where she goes.

And really, the more serious, introverted characters like Hope are gonna seem less developed than their louder, more extroverted peers too. Someone like Tony, his traits are big and obvious and hard to ignore, while someone like Hope isn't gonna spoon feed the audience as much.

[chicago_bastard]

Yeah, I forgot about the simultaneous streaming and theatre release. Marvel shouldn't have done that. Aren't Shang-Chi and Black Widow the top two performing movies of all of 2021 thus far? That's what I've read.

Yeah, Shang-Chi and BW are the top 2 movies in the US right now. Worldwide is a different story but they are both hampered by not having a China release so it's no surprise that they fall short in that regard.

To ME there's just this weird miasma surrounding Black Widow that saddens me. Maybe it's because of ScarJo's lawsuit against Disney, the vibe is kinda negative to me.

Oh I definitely understand that. Marvel really did its best to jeopardize this movie's prospects. The film should have been made earlier, or if they chose to do it in phase four then they shouldn't have killed the character off in the last movie of phase three. So the film was already surrounded by moans as to why one should care about a movie about a dead character. Then the stupid decision to release it on Disney+ that led to even more negativity and the lawsuit as the cherry on top. That's all on Marvel/Disney though and not on the actual filmmakers.

Black Widow, of all MCU characters, did NOT need to be involved in a huge CGI spectacle in the third act! She doesn't have any superpowers. That's one of the best parts of her character!

I see where you are coming from and feel similarly about it although I can live with the skydive shenanigans as they are a nice nod to Waid/Samnee's Black Widow run.

What I don't understand is why Shang-Chi gets a pass for its even more excessive and CGI-heavy third act. I'm not an expert on 616 Shang-Chi but most stories I know of him actually portray him as a martial artist without superpowers, not unsimilar to Natasha, sometimes even working as a spy. I don't think the over-the-top powers they gave him in the movie (obviously they felt the need to amp his powers up to be of use for the Avengers) have any resemblance to him in the comics. But somehow nobody is criticizing the movie for it which seems like double-standards to me.

And Marvel's villain "problem" came back with a vengeance in this movie. To me Dreykov was a weird combination of Jeffrey Epstein and Don Corleone.

I think the similarities to Epstein and Weinstein were intentional. Dreykov is a misogynist child trafficker and as such I didn't need the movie to make him sympathetic or explore the reasons for him being who he is. There are enough people like him in the real world and I doubt that many of them have good reasons for why they became what they are. Does Harvey Weinstein have any redeeming character treats that we know of? Did some tragic event in his past lead him to become the person he is? In my opinion the movie wanted to make a point about gender issues in the real world and for that purpose Dreykov needed to be portrayed the way he was.

I also hated the fallopian tube and uterus jokes (Feige and Whedon can be blamed for those indirectly). Those quips were strange to me.

I recall only one instance and the line isn't meant to make one laugh out, it was meant to uncover Alexei's misogynist remark and shed light on Yelena's character as she uses humor as a coping mechanism to deal with the terrible things that were done to her.

[Ascended]

I think the similarities to Epstein and Weinstein were intentional. Dreykov is a misogynist child trafficker and as such I didn't need the movie to make him sympathetic or explore the reasons for him being who he is. There are enough people like him in the real world and I doubt that many of them have good reasons for why they became what they are. Does Harvey Weinstein have any redeeming character treats that we know of? Did some tragic event in his past lead him to become the person he is? In my opinion the movie wanted to make a point about gender issues in the real world and for that purpose Dreykov needed to be portrayed the way he was.

The similarities *had* to be intentional. I even think I recall reading a quote from the film makers saying that it was.

That doesn't bother me, and I don't need or want Dreykov to be sympathetic....but what I did want was for him to be consistent and make sense. He worked for the USSR, and maybe worked with and/or for Hydra....but both of those groups are dead now so who'd he answer to and what was his goal? He pulled all these strings and manipulated all these political events....for what purpose? And if he didn't care about getting "credit" for his work, as he claims, then why is he so hot to take control of an Avenger so he can "step out of the shadows?"

Obviously he's a big deal; he had a small city in the sky as his base of operations and hundreds of highly trained assassins, and Dreykov was so good at his job nobody even knew he existed. But none of that really seems to matter if we don't know what he's trying to accomplish. What he was doing to the Widows is awful and makes him one of the MCU's grossest villains yet, but it's hard to care when he doesn't have any discernable goal.

I really enjoyed Widow, I thought it was a very strong addition to the MCU, but the film absolutely fell back on the bad habit of underdeveloped villains. Even Yellowjacket had a clearer motivation and goal than Dreykov.

Oh, and I for one am glad Disney did the same day streaming release. I got to see the movie with my family and didn't have to sit in a cramped theater with poor ventilation full of dirty people who may or may not have been vaccinated. Disney got their money from me and I didn't have to worry about my family getting sick (my daughter is too young for the shot and my wife has a weak immune system). I wish they had done this with Shang Chi. I know theaters need the revenue but I liked having the option, and I don't really care if theater chains go under. Companies die all the time, and someone else always steps in the fill the gap.

[Frontier]

Yeah, Bucky looks inconsistent because of the brain washing, but I was impressed with Stan's performance in F&tWS. Largely by happenstance, I ended up watching all of Bucky's appearances shortly after F&tWS ended and you can absolutely see character development and growth there. But looking at the surface Bucky seems thinly developed and inconsistent. And we all know that Sam had no real personality to speak of beyond a couple basic "soldier archetype" traits until the show hit. But F&tWS did a good job of expanding his character. He's not as developed as most MCU headliners....but this was the first time Sam got to headline and they did a lot of good work there. Cap 4 is going to accomplish even more.

Don't get me wrong, Sam and Bucky still aren't terribly developed characters (Sam especially). The show did a ton of work digging into them as people and bringing their personalities out from Steve's shadow, but there's a lot of work yet to do.

I think the fact that he was working with vets as a social worker was pretty different from the norm for "soldier types."

Don't agree with this one. I think maybe your dislike of Tony's influence on MCU Parker might be clouding your judgement here? Like, I could drop lines of dialogue and we'd all be able to identify who said them.

I think Holland stands roughly equal with Tobey, as far as personality development goes, and is more developed than Garfield (who didn't have much going on beyond the "dorkable" thing and dead gf angst).

I think Tobey and Holland are about on par in terms of capturing the human and down-to-Earth Peter Parker side, but Garfield is still the actor with the best Spider-Man voice (he just let it seep too much into his Peter role). Tobey just had the benefit of not needing to have to juggle trying to emphasize Spider-Man in a shared universe or focusing so much on the teenager aspect (in my opinion).

I agree. I like Hope, but she's largely just a straight man/boss lady archetype with mommy issues, and little else. Of course, she hasn't had a ton of screen time either, especially time devoted to exploring her personality. More than anyone else in the Ant-Man films, she's driven by the needs of the plot. But her character is consistent as hell and has seen continued growth, and now that Janet is back and Hope's primary driver is resolved, I look forward to seeing where she goes.

And really, the more serious, introverted characters like Hope are gonna seem less developed than their louder, more extroverted peers too. Someone like Tony, his traits are big and obvious and hard to ignore, while someone like Hope isn't gonna spoon feed the audience as much.

I don't think it helps Hope that with Scott they end up inverting the traditional Ant-Man and Wasp dynamic to where the female character is left more in the straight-woman, no-nonsense, serious role (not that Hope doesn't snark Scott, but we're talking about MCU Scott here).

[CosmiComic]

MCU Spiderman shouldn't have been a teenager to begin with then. Teens generally act like teens.

I don't think Scott snarks that much towards Hope. He's more hokey around her. I don't think making her the straight guy is wrong, though. What I don't like about their dymanic is forcing them to be in a romantic relationship. I think Hope could also benefit from interacting with other superheroes

[Alpha]

He's the most believable as a teenager but he has very little actual personality as Spider-Man and so often lacks Peter's trademark sass or neurosis in favor of playing an overly-excited teenage Superhero pastiche or just being the straightman to everyone.

SASS:
Civil War -
1 Spm- "You have the right to remain silent!" (to falcon while trying to escape Falcon's grapple midflight)
2 Spm - "Hey buddy I think you lost this." (and throws a massive a giant metal board at Bucky)
3 (after webbing up Bucky and Falcon to the ground) Guys look, I'd love to keep this up but I've only got one job and I really wanna impress Mr Stark
4 Spm - That thing does not obey the laws of physics at all (to Cap about his shield)
Cap - Look kid there's a lot going on here that you don't understand
Spm - Stark said you'd say that. (throws Cap at a wall) He also said to go for your legs
(and laughs)

Homecoming
1 Spm - (to the bank robbers) I'm starting to think you're not the Avengers (while being thrown around with a gravity gun)
2 After Aaron Davis tells him about the guns Peter just lets him stay there webbed up for 2 hours because "you deserve that. You're a criminal"
3 Spm - (to a bike thief) hey could you hold this for a second? (and puts a web on him that sends him in the air)
4 Spm - "hey buddy" and proceeds to slam a supposed car thief's head onto a car
5 After taking Flash's expensive car in front of his date he purposedly drives it into a bunch of bikes just to scratch it
*bonus: as Peter Parker in the sandwich place he responds to a comment in spanish about aunt may by saying "how's your daughter" in spanish to the owner

Infinity War
1 Spm - "If anything it's kind of your fault that I'm here"
Iron Man - "what did you just say?"
Spm - "Ok I take that back"
2 Peter Quill - "Is Footloose still the best movie of all time?"
Spm- "Never was"
3 "Magic" (punches Thanos through a portal) "More Magic" (punches Thanos through another portal) "Magic with a kick" (kicks Thanos through a portal)

Far From Home
1 in the dvd short film "to do list" he tells the cops that he can't be the next Iron Man because "I'm too busy doing your job" and though he says he's kidding he still hammers down by saying "but you're gonna have to do your jobs for a couple weeks because I'm going on vacation"
2 I mean, he ghosts Nick Fury. He tells Happy "I promise I'll call him" and only then out of earshot "after my trip"

In this movie he doesn't really have a great opportunity to do quips. All the fights are with amorphous creatures and when he finally fights Mysterio he's totally out of his depth and scared and guilt/ grief stricken. I guess he could've been more sassy when trying to get Nick Fury off his back, but I don't think it was necessary. He seems to respect Nick Fury


Neurotic The dude was worried that Mantis was gonna lay eggs inside of him. How much more do you want?

More screentime with them that didn't involve Scott.

I mean okay, but again, Scott is the supporting character whenever Hope and Hank are in a scene, and sometimes even when they aren't. I honestly don't see an inbalance. Hope and even Hank get tons of credit in the second movie.

[CosmiComic]

MCU Peter is less sarcastic and more just makes funny comments or reactions, I would say

[Alpha]

MCU Peter is less sarcastic and more just makes funny comments or reactions, I would say

Those examples I posted are specifically of him messing with people and or making fun of them while being a smartass. Of course there are many other moments of him just being funny, but those moments in particular are when he's being kind of a soft bully.

And of course those are a lot of examples of it. There are others moments of him making fun of people/ messing with them but they aren't as funny.

(I left out the lame jokes with the same level comedy as the Sam Raimi trilogy like "that's a cute outfit. did your husband give it to you?"
or "it's you who's out Gobbie, outta your mind")