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  1. #4066
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    To be honest I'm expecting if Clint gets thrown in jail it's for something that happens in the series and not from Ronin. Because they're basing it on the Fraction run.
    You're probably right. Seems like world leaders weren't terribly interested in stopping Clint while he was on his rampage, I doubt anyone really considers him a priority after the fact. Well, except for all the crooks he pissed off anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Depends on the ending. Steve's was happy but I didn't like it because it was OOC. Tony's wasn't but it was still
    Eh, Steve's arc was pointing in this kind of direction since Winter Soldier. He proved across several films that retiring with Peggy is absolutely within his characterization. Running the risk of living in the past is simply the next step in a journey that started with taking down SHIELD, defying the UN, etc. Cap always did what he wanted, even in his first film where he goes against orders to rescue Bucky and the other POW's from Hydra.

    And Idk if Clint deserves a happy ending. He keeps saying he retired but he ran out of retirement to join Team Cap despite his whole "muh family" thing. Then he goes out again and becomes a killer for no good reason. And 2 heroes sacrificed themselves for his sake. How did he earn a happy ending?
    I feel like if Clint's story ends with him divorced and/or in jail, it renders the entire struggle moot. Everything he did, he did to make the world a better place for his family (whether he was misguided, wrong, or whatever). If he doesn't overcome and get that happy ending, then what's the point of his entire narrative?

    Besides, he's the Everyman of the Avengers. People want to see those guys get the happy ending.

    Right vs legal is a potentially interesting storyline, but idk if Marvel will go far enough with. Like I've said earlier, Marvel is inconsistent.
    I figure the best we can expect is a "F&tWS" level of commentary. Which is deeper than most Marvel films/shows, but still a shallow dive into a highly complex and complicated topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Gotta counter that particular point...His family was killed and he was emotionally traumatized and compromised. He started killing criminals who he felt did not deserve to live when good people like his wife and kids died.
    Agreed. Clint had a pretty good reason for going full blown Punisher.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  2. #4067
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Warning for venom 2. (yeah sony movie but will still post it here anyways) If you hate spoilers beware! The post scenes have been leaked. Watch out for spoilers if you hate them.

  3. #4068
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Depends on the ending. Steve's was happy but I didn't like it because it was OOC. Tony's wasn't but it was still

    And Idk if Clint deserves a happy ending. He keeps saying he retired but he ran out of retirement to join Team Cap despite his whole "muh family" thing. Then he goes out again and becomes a killer for no good reason. And 2 heroes sacrificed themselves for his sake. How did he earn a happy ending?

    Right vs legal is a potentially interesting storyline, but idk if Marvel will go far enough with. Like I've said earlier, Marvel is inconsistent.
    So showing loyalty to his friends and repaying his debt to Pietro is a bad thing now? And like the poster below said, he certainly had a reason (trauma), even if it wasnít a good one.

    You can just say you donít like the character.

  4. #4069
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Gotta counter that particular point...His family was killed and he was emotionally traumatized and compromised. He started killing criminals who he felt did not deserve to live when good people like his wife and kids died.
    I don't buy this reasoning. It came out of nowhere like all MCU Hawkeye developments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You're probably right. Seems like world leaders weren't terribly interested in stopping Clint while he was on his rampage, I doubt anyone really considers him a priority after the fact. Well, except for all the crooks he pissed off anyway.
    Seems like an oversight by world authorities who seemed all gung ho to kill Bucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Eh, Steve's arc was pointing in this kind of direction since Winter Soldier. He proved across several films that retiring with Peggy is absolutely within his characterization. Running the risk of living in the past is simply the next step in a journey that started with taking down SHIELD, defying the UN, etc. Cap always did what he wanted, even in his first film where he goes against orders to rescue Bucky and the other POW's from Hydra.
    I don't really agree. His whole arc is about fighting for what he believes in. Then he abandons it for a woman he never really had a relationship with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I feel like if Clint's story ends with him divorced and/or in jail, it renders the entire struggle moot. Everything he did, he did to make the world a better place for his family (whether he was misguided, wrong, or whatever). If he doesn't overcome and get that happy ending, then what's the point of his entire narrative?

    Besides, he's the Everyman of the Avengers. People want to see those guys get the happy ending.
    Except his 'do the right thing' almost cost his family. And I barely know what he believes in because he's terribly underwritten. His narrative doesn't have any point IMO

    And I don't think he's an everyman. Nor do I think the Avengers need an everyman, because they're all more interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I figure the best we can expect is a "F&tWS" level of commentary. Which is deeper than most Marvel films/shows, but still a shallow dive into a highly complex and complicated topic.
    iMO it would help if Marvel figured out whether heroes murdering people is ok.

    Besides, if Marvel goes too deep, some people whine about 'politics in muh movies.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Agreed. Clint had a pretty good reason for going full blown Punisher.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    So showing loyalty to his friends and repaying his debt to Pietro is a bad thing now? And like the poster below said, he certainly had a reason (trauma), even if it wasn’t a good one.

    You can just say you don’t like the character.
    It was barely a reason to forget his family that's supposedly so important to him. It's all just blink and you miss it dialogue. The MCU never bothers to actually develop him in a consistent and incremental manner.

    And his reasoning to become a murderer is weak too. He just murders people because he's sad.
    Last edited by CosmiComic; 09-15-2021 at 09:12 PM.

  5. #4070
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Warning for venom 2. (yeah sony movie but will still post it here anyways) If you hate spoilers beware! The post scenes have been leaked. Watch out for spoilers if you hate them.
    Spider-Man wasn't worth this.... not at all.
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

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  6. #4071
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Warning for venom 2. (yeah sony movie but will still post it here anyways) If you hate spoilers beware! The post scenes have been leaked. Watch out for spoilers if you hate them.
    spoilers:
    Looks like Sony is banking on Spider-Man vs. Venom next.
    end of spoilers

  7. #4072
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    spoilers:
    Looks like Sony is banking on Spider-Man vs. Venom next.
    end of spoilers
    The only positive

    spoilers:
    Is if Marvel Studios gets creative control over Venom then.

    I do not enjoy Sony Venom at all.
    end of spoilers
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

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  8. #4073
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    Venom Set in the Amazing Spider-Man Universe Continuity Reportedly

  9. #4074
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    The voice acting in that last What If episode was pretty good. It's been pretty pedestrian to me thus far. That last episode felt longer to me though. I hope they bring back Spader to do some Ultron work in the future.

  10. #4075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    spoilers:
    Looks like Sony is banking on Spider-Man vs. Venom next.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    That should've been the first appearance of this Venom, not the third
    end of spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    The voice acting in that last What If episode was pretty good. It's been pretty pedestrian to me thus far. That last episode felt longer to me though. I hope they bring back Spader to do some Ultron work in the future.
    I would like that as well. I'd like to hear Spader play Ultron in an a less generic storyline

  11. #4076
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    spoilers:
    That should've been the first appearance of this Venom, not the third
    end of spoilers



    I would like that as well. I'd like to hear Spader play Ultron in an a less generic storyline
    I think it's fair to say that AoU was a very messy and overstuffed movie that tried to do too much. BUT...I have yet to hear ANY complaints about Spader's voice work in it. I thought he was a good Ultron.

  12. #4077
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I think it's fair to say that AoU was a very messy and overstuffed movie that tried to do too much. BUT...I have yet to hear ANY complaints about Spader's voice work in it. I thought he was a good Ultron.
    Yeah, I think his material was just mediocre. There's elements of a good, even great, Avengers movie hidden within the middling one we got. But Spader has a good voice so I think his portrayal should get a chance to be redeemed.

  13. #4078
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    It is annoying to me that even in animation Hollywood can't get guns right. Where in the hell were the sights or optic on Killmonger's rifle?

  14. #4079
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Yeah, I think his material was just mediocre. There's elements of a good, even great, Avengers movie hidden within the middling one we got. But Spader has a good voice so I think his portrayal should get a chance to be redeemed.
    AoU was so strange in many ways. Ultron was sort of the best AND worst part of that movie. I mean, he was NOT threatening or intimidating to the Avengers at all in my opinion, but I appreciated Disney making him a such a funny villain. And the casting of Spader was a GREAT move in my opinion. I liked how Whedon toned down Pietro's assholelery and made him physically vulnerable, but I thought Wanda's accent was VERY awkward. I disagreed with the shipping of the Hulk and the Black Widow. I just felt that Feige and Whedon were introducing too many characters at one time. I thought it was crazy that Wanda and Pietro spent more time with Ultron than Vision did!!!

  15. #4080
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    AoU was so strange in many ways. Ultron was sort of the best AND worst part of that movie. I mean, he was NOT threatening or intimidating to the Avengers at all in my opinion, but I appreciated Disney making him a such a funny villain. And the casting of Spader was a GREAT move in my opinion. I liked how Whedon toned down Pietro's assholelery and made him physically vulnerable, but I thought Wanda's accent was VERY awkward. I disagreed with the shipping of the Hulk and the Black Widow. I just felt that Feige and Whedon were introducing too many characters at one time. I thought it was crazy that Wanda and Pietro spent more time with Ultron than Vision did!!!
    I think he could've been intimidating and funny, but he didn't come off as either. Aside from a lot of Whedon's jokes not landing, or taking off to begin with, Ultron just lacked enough motivation besides Hollywood standard 'evil robot hates humanity.' Comics Ultron has this too but he also has his obsession with Hank. MCU couldn't do that so it replaced Hank with Tony but didn't make an interesting enough relationship.

    As for being overstuffed, Wanda & Pietro should've been introduced elsewhere. Ideally they could've been introduced as villains in their own Avengers movie but joined the heroes in the end, while Vision and Ultron would've been villains in AoU but Vision betrays Ultron. Vision needed much more screen time in AoU.

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