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  1. #4186
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the fact that he was working with vets as a social worker was pretty different from the norm for "soldier types."
    I mean, it shows Sam's compassion and civic mindedness, but working at the VA isn't exactly moving him far from the typical soldier's orbit. And I was talking about archetypes more than occupation anyway.

    The thing with Sam is that his primary personality traits mirror Steve's. Which is good and bad; we get the general gist of who he is quickly, but it prevents Sam from easily standing on his own as a character. That he was a supporting character makes it even worse because he didn't get the screen time to delve into the things that make him different from other heroes (and especially Steve).

    Now with the show, we have a better idea of the life he came from and what his personal priorities are, we got a better look at his sense of humor and how he moves through a world that still draws lines along race and how that mixes with Sam's personal feelings about the country and service. We learned more about Falcon in one episode than in all the previous films combined.

    but Garfield is still the actor with the best Spider-Man voice (he just let it seep too much into his Peter role).
    Okay, I can see that. I think Holland has plenty of quips and Spider-Man-ness (??) but Garfield quipped like none other. But his Parker? Way off base. Peter isn't supposed to be that kind of "sexy dork" character.

    I don't think it helps Hope that with Scott they end up inverting the traditional Ant-Man and Wasp dynamic
    Generally I do think you get a better view of a supporting character's personality when they're a loud extrovert. Makes up for the lack of development time. But I think the MCU dynamic is pretty interesting; Scott might be the star but in the interpersonal dynamics he's absolutely a sidekick and I think that works on several levels. I just hope that Hope gets the kind of character expansion and exploration we've seen with Sam and Wanda, now that Janet is back. And I think we will, the difference in Hope between Ant-Man 1 and 2 is a clear and marked trajectory, and I see no reason why 3 should be any different.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  2. #4187
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    SASS:

    In this movie he doesn't really have a great opportunity to do quips. All the fights are with amorphous creatures and when he finally fights Mysterio he's totally out of his depth and scared and guilt/ grief stricken. I guess he could've been more sassy when trying to get Nick Fury off his back, but I don't think it was necessary. He seems to respect Nick Fury
    I'm not saying he never quips in the MCU but the genuine quips and snark feels few-and-far between compared to other Spider-Men. Like compared to Spec Spidey or Insomnaic Spidey it feels pretty lacking. MCU Spidey just isn't a spitfire or wild personality like other Spidey's.
    Neurotic The dude was worried that Mantis was gonna lay eggs inside of him. How much more do you want?
    I'm thinking more Ultimate Peter.
    I mean okay, but again, Scott is the supporting character whenever Hope and Hank are in a scene, and sometimes even when they aren't. I honestly don't see an inbalance. Hope and even Hank get tons of credit in the second movie.
    They always felt like supporting characters to me even in their own scenes, because it would pivot back to Scott, but that's just me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    MCU Peter is less sarcastic and more just makes funny comments or reactions, I would say
    That just doesn't do it for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I mean, it shows Sam's compassion and civic mindedness, but working at the VA isn't exactly moving him far from the typical soldier's orbit. And I was talking about archetypes more than occupation anyway.

    The thing with Sam is that his primary personality traits mirror Steve's. Which is good and bad; we get the general gist of who he is quickly, but it prevents Sam from easily standing on his own as a character. That he was a supporting character makes it even worse because he didn't get the screen time to delve into the things that make him different from other heroes (and especially Steve).

    Now with the show, we have a better idea of the life he came from and what his personal priorities are, we got a better look at his sense of humor and how he moves through a world that still draws lines along race and how that mixes with Sam's personal feelings about the country and service. We learned more about Falcon in one episode than in all the previous films combined.
    It does show that he's very emotionally intuitive and compassionate, and his similarities with Steve are why they got along so well and he was able to process the transition into becoming Cap as well as he did.
    Okay, I can see that. I think Holland has plenty of quips and Spider-Man-ness (??) but Garfield quipped like none other. But his Parker? Way off base. Peter isn't supposed to be that kind of "sexy dork" character.
    Well, at least until he gets into college. He was always more of a John Romita Sr. Pete than a Ditko Pete.

    Holland doesn't quip near as much as he should in my opinion.
    Generally I do think you get a better view of a supporting character's personality when they're a loud extrovert. Makes up for the lack of development time. But I think the MCU dynamic is pretty interesting; Scott might be the star but in the interpersonal dynamics he's absolutely a sidekick and I think that works on several levels. I just hope that Hope gets the kind of character expansion and exploration we've seen with Sam and Wanda, now that Janet is back. And I think we will, the difference in Hope between Ant-Man 1 and 2 is a clear and marked trajectory, and I see no reason why 3 should be any different.
    I don't think he comes off as the sidekick even if Hope is more competent than he is, by virtue of having main character power.

    Quantamania is probably going to focus a lot on Scott and Cassie, though I guess Hope might factor in as a step-mom.

  3. #4188
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    Yeah, Shang-Chi and BW are the top 2 movies in the US right now. Worldwide is a different story but they are both hampered by not having a China release so it's no surprise that they fall short in that regard.



    Oh I definitely understand that. Marvel really did its best to jeopardize this movie's prospects. The film should have been made earlier, or if they chose to do it in phase four then they shouldn't have killed the character off in the last movie of phase three. So the film was already surrounded by moans as to why one should care about a movie about a dead character. Then the stupid decision to release it on Disney+ that led to even more negativity and the lawsuit as the cherry on top. That's all on Marvel/Disney though and not on the actual filmmakers.



    I see where you are coming from and feel similarly about it although I can live with the skydive shenanigans as they are a nice nod to Waid/Samnee's Black Widow run.

    What I don't understand is why Shang-Chi gets a pass for its even more excessive and CGI-heavy third act. I'm not an expert on 616 Shang-Chi but most stories I know of him actually portray him as a martial artist without superpowers, not unsimilar to Natasha, sometimes even working as a spy. I don't think the over-the-top powers they gave him in the movie (obviously they felt the need to amp his powers up to be of use for the Avengers) have any resemblance to him in the comics. But somehow nobody is criticizing the movie for it which seems like double-standards to me.



    I think the similarities to Epstein and Weinstein were intentional. Dreykov is a misogynist child trafficker and as such I didn't need the movie to make him sympathetic or explore the reasons for him being who he is. There are enough people like him in the real world and I doubt that many of them have good reasons for why they became what they are. Does Harvey Weinstein have any redeeming character treats that we know of? Did some tragic event in his past lead him to become the person he is? In my opinion the movie wanted to make a point about gender issues in the real world and for that purpose Dreykov needed to be portrayed the way he was.



    I recall only one instance and the line isn't meant to make one laugh out, it was meant to uncover Alexei's misogynist remark and shed light on Yelena's character as she uses humor as a coping mechanism to deal with the terrible things that were done to her.
    Oh cool. Thanks for the confirmation about box office receipts. I was genuinely surprised that Shang-Chi was so successful. I've never heard of Simu Liu before. Black Widow's character definitely gets more popularity because ScarJo is one of the biggest stars in Hollywood these days. I didn't know the falling Red Room stuff was based on comic books, so I can see why they kept it. Thank you also for reminding me about that human trafficking scene at the beginning of the film. I was surprised Disney would even touch upon that issue and I'm glad that they did. Good scene. I agree Harvey Weinsteinov is meant to be an evil guy, but I do think his motivations were kind of vague. I mean, he chose females for his Black Widow army because there are too many girls in the world? If all he wanted was an army of brainwashed super soldiers, why not choose men (who are physically stronger)? I was a bit confused. And the Taskmaster didn't have much to do. I think she had like one line in the movie? It's obvious the movie kept her quiet because they wanted to surprise audiences with the gender swap reveal. Felt like she was sort of shoehorned in for future movies/shows to me, but I'm used to the MCU doing that at this point. I personally would have liked to see Natasha seek out her "real" family and instead of being told about her mother's death. I wasn't thrilled that Natasha was forced to make due with reconciliation with her adopted parents as opposed to her biological parents. By seeking out blood relatives, Natasha could have regained a sense of identity which she had been denied all her life. So she settled for her surrogate family. But I think Feige and company are pretty excited about Pugh's Yelena and wanted her to be heavily featured in the movie. Which I think is okay because Pugh stole the show quite a few times during the film.

    I didn't know Shang-Chi fell into the whole third act CGI routine as well! I thought Iron Fist was Marvel's main martial artist with mystical powers. This is totally news to me. I'm not sure if I like that. In previous movies, the MCU did a fairly decent job of keeping Hawkeye and Black Widow a little bit away from the fighting due to their lack of powers and extra protection (because they are normal humans without superpowers). One hit could easily take each of them out. But in the Black Widow film they made her a little bit too strong in my opinion? She survived quite a few events that would seriously do some damage to regular human beings. It's not a HUGE deal in the big scheme of things, but I would have strongly preferred Natasha was just as vulnerable as she was in earlier outings. I did enjoy the film more than some of the Disney Plus stuff. As you probably know, I'm not a fan of the MCU's interpretation of time travel/multiverses, so I was relieved not to have watch that shit again in Romanoff's final picture.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 09-21-2021 at 08:23 AM.

  4. #4189
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Now that people mention it, Sam's distinctive role in Winter Soldier really was that of the former soldier now doing therapy work with others, which I think is definitely distinctive in the Marvel Universe.

    The next Captain America being someone that spent their time helping people work on their mental health and rediscover their lives. That's a pretty damn great pitch and there are so many ways that could've gone. And yet the tv show didn't even touch this point. Not that they ran away from that personality, but they didn't touch on what he had done already.

    I wasn't really interested in the boat stuff with his family. I feel like a better take would've been that his dad is also a war veteran that hasn't recovered from the trauma, not from the war, but of the world he came back to and how he was treated in America. What if Sam found out about Isaiah Bradley not through the serum hunt but through his community work in therapy? Exploring race through therapy is to me wayyy more personal than anything they did, and is kind of less abrassive to conservatives.

    And the key part about this approach is, STEVE WAS INSPIRED BY SAM. During those 5 years Steve actually started to do what he saw Sam doing. That's a great segway for how he chose Sam, because he realized that Sam knew something really important that Steve didn't, how to really help people overcome the weight of the world on their soul. He knew how ot make Captain America more than a symbol, an active figure in healing the world.

    Now I wanna do a full rewrite of the show with this in mind. I was so bored when Sam was giving a phony speech to the world leaders, but this therapy thing is actually real, and it's how Bucky and Sam could've reached a deeper connection, by having Sam help Bucky work through his guilt and trauma, and not in an office.
    Last edited by Alpha; 09-19-2021 at 07:59 PM.

  5. #4190
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    Bucky came off as snappy and disagreeable through FaWS though

  6. #4191
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    Shang Chi vs Black Widow Box Office, Dune International Opening Weekend

  7. #4192
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    So, is Shang-Chi a success?

  8. #4193
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Of all the problems with MCU Spider-Man, not being snappy, funny or energetic enough is definitely not one of them. Spidey's humor, geekiness and joking under pressure is one of the things that Tom Holland really excels at. He's had more moments of humor and snark that Tobey, Andrew and about the same level as Spectacular and PS4 Spider-Man.

  9. #4194
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Of all the problems with MCU Spider-Man, not being snappy, funny or energetic enough is definitely not one of them. Spidey's humor, geekiness and joking under pressure is one of the things that Tom Holland really excels at. He's had more moments of humor and snark that Tobey, Andrew and about the same level as Spectacular and PS4 Spider-Man.
    Yeah, he's way more than Tobey Maguire's version


    Honestly, I'm not sure what's the appeal of him and Garfield returning

  10. #4195
    Ultimate Life Form BlackClaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    So, is Shang-Chi a success?
    By pandemic standards yes.
    T'Challa
    A.K.A. The Black Panther
    King of Wakanda
    King of the Dead and The Champion of Bast
    Two-Time Time Magazine "Person Of The Year"
    Six-Time People Magazine "Sexiest Man Alive"

  11. #4196
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    How is the Shang-Chi merch?

    One thing about Black Panther, is that the merchandise released was insane (and bought at insane levels). In addition to his own stuff, he was also getting released into AVengers sttuff as well (BP on avengers tshirts, BP in avengers legos, BP in avenges cartoons, etc)

    Did the same thing happen with Shang? I don't remember seeing any kids tshirts with the character at walmart or target btu Ive avoided the toy sections to see if there were any toys. BP has full aisles to himself.

    Obviously there are way less Asian-Americans vs american blacks so you aren't gonna get the same cultural phenomenon, but just wndering
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

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  12. #4197
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I just felt in movies and shows like Black Widow and Loki (I have to say Loki might possibly be my favorite MCU character by the way) there were a lot of attempts at humor and sentimentality and to me they just largely fell flat (usually Disney is good at this kind of thing). I NEVER felt that way about any of the 2008-2019 Marvel movies. But then again, I fully acknowledge that I'm in a distinct minority here when it comes to my feelings about Phase 4. I'm hoping Shang-Chi is great.
    I haven't seen BW yet because it wasn't worth paying to see when I have D+.

    But...

    WV and Loki are my two least favorite MCU additions. If I made a rank or tier list, they would be at the very bottom.

    Once again, that doesn't mean they are trash, but looking at just MCU properties, they were my least favorite.

    So, I am kinda in that minority with you so far lol.
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

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  13. #4198
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    By pandemic standards yes.
    That's good, but I wonder if it actually makes a profit.

  14. #4199
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That doesn't bother me, and I don't need or want Dreykov to be sympathetic....but what I did want was for him to be consistent and make sense. He worked for the USSR, and maybe worked with and/or for Hydra....but both of those groups are dead now so who'd he answer to and what was his goal? He pulled all these strings and manipulated all these political events....for what purpose? And if he didn't care about getting "credit" for his work, as he claims, then why is he so hot to take control of an Avenger so he can "step out of the shadows?"

    Obviously he's a big deal; he had a small city in the sky as his base of operations and hundreds of highly trained assassins, and Dreykov was so good at his job nobody even knew he existed. But none of that really seems to matter if we don't know what he's trying to accomplish. What he was doing to the Widows is awful and makes him one of the MCU's grossest villains yet, but it's hard to care when he doesn't have any discernable goal.

    I really enjoyed Widow, I thought it was a very strong addition to the MCU, but the film absolutely fell back on the bad habit of underdeveloped villains. Even Yellowjacket had a clearer motivation and goal than Dreykov.
    Dreykov's lack of motivation didn't bother me as I saw him as a symbolic representation of the patriarchy.

    Also he's a coward. I doubt he would have stepped out of the shadows regardless of his talk. Natasha even called him out on it if I remember correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I agree Harvey Weinsteinov is meant to be an evil guy, but I do think his motivations were kind of vague. I mean, he chose females for his Black Widow army because there are too many girls in the world? If all he wanted was an army of brainwashed super soldiers, why not choose men (who are physically stronger)? I was bit confused.
    I guess it's because girls are easier to attain for him than boys. At the time when China's government allowed families to have only one child some Chinese parents disposed of their first-born female babies because they wanted their only child to be male. Sadly it's the case in many third world countries that male babies are much more valued than girls so I believe it was easier for Dreykov to get poor families to sell him their female children. That's why he calls them trash.
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  15. #4200
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    That's good, but I wonder if it actually makes a profit.
    As of now? No. At the end of its run? Possible, but it won't be much.
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

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