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  1. #4156

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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    Maybe the Russos were trying to resolve it after the fact but it's also possible that they realized during shooting that McFeely/Markus have written nonsense and thus deviated from the script. In my opinion McFeely/Markus are average screenwriters at best and it's known that the Russos changed many things from their script for The Winter Soldier during shooting, so I assume that was the case in later movies, too. I even read somewhere that the time travel rules were different in the original Endgame script and were changed by the Russos. So McFeely/Markus obviously wanted to go with the Back To The Future approach and didn't really get what the Russos went for in the finished movie, which would explain their clueless statements.

    Also director's word trumps writer's word as the director is the one who decides how the finished movie looks like, at least as long as the studio bosses or producers don't interfere.
    McFeely/Markus seem to believe that removing Infinity Stones is what causes the timeline to splinter and Steve not having Infinity Stones leads to the BTF rules.

    Anyway, the Russos have made it clear that any time travel, regardless of whether you remove Infinity Stones will cause an alternate timelines. Also, we just finished Loki's show and we saw alternate timelines being created without Infinity Stones. That should have put a nail in the 'Steve was always Peggy's husband' theories.

  2. #4157
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Yeah Carol is top much of a loner right now to be the leader. She Hulk is gonna be introduced in a tv show, so I'm not that confident that she would lead a team even though the comics version has every reason to be a leader.

    And again, Hope has shown plenty of leadership qualities.

  3. #4158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He respected him, but he never came off as a fanboy to me. At least compared to, say, how they wrote Spider-Man.
    Peter actually disagreed with Tony at times. Sam always just did what Steve said. And Peter didn't make rude remarks at anyone Steve disagreed with. Peter has his own personality and interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it's a pretty clear and gradual process on-screen, but to each their own.
    I don't see it as gradual because I don't see what she's building up on. She starts off as this random spy lady and bounces from narrative to narrative without a clear roadmap. At least, that's what I got. That's why I didn't really understand why so many wanted her to have her own movie

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    She's competent but too stilted for my tastes. Far from my favorite take on The Wasp.
    I guess you could see that but she's not Jan so I'm not comparing her to Jan. Yeah, she's not much like Nadia in terms of personality, but Nadia was only re-introduced into comics after the first movie came out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    I don’t even see how it’s a plot hole.

    The movie repeatedly takes time to explain how it’s time travel works than sticks to it throughout the movie. There is no reason to think that Steve suddenly did any different during his jumps throughout time.
    I assume that to be true, but the filmmakers didn't outright show that in the movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    Sam had a lot of personality and Hope had a serious personality but both had zero stories. They have been supporting characters to other characters' stories.
    Idk what Sam's personality is. Hope is fairly serious but she at least seems to have her own opinions and interests. Sam only developed that after Steve was gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Actually, Scott Lang was more of a supporting character in "Ant-man and the Wasp". The emotional stakes hinged on Hank and Hope.

    And why are people arguing if Hope is interesting or not? The question was who would lead an all female Avengers and I pointed out that Hope fits that role the best for a variety of reasons that I wrote down in the previous page. It doesn't matter if she's interesting or not. And I do think that the leader of the Avengers being their shortest member is inherently cool.
    I think the emotional stakes hinged on Hank & Hope but Scott got a lot more PoV moments. But I think Hope could work as leader given the chance.

  4. #4159
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Actually, Scott Lang was more of a supporting character in "Ant-man and the Wasp". The emotional stakes hinged on Hank and Hope.

    And why are people arguing if Hope is interesting or not? The question was who would lead an all female Avengers and I pointed out that Hope fits that role the best for a variety of reasons that I wrote down in the previous page. It doesn't matter if she's interesting or not. And I do think that the leader of the Avengers being their shortest member is inherently cool.
    The emotional stakes were focused on the Pym's but it feels like Scott was the one driving the plot and it became more about his dynamic with the Pym's than just about Hope finding her mother.

    I'm down for Wasp leading the Avengers but Hope's not Janet. Actually, is Evangeline Lilly even that short?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Peter actually disagreed with Tony at times. Sam always just did what Steve said. And Peter didn't make rude remarks at anyone Steve disagreed with. Peter has his own personality and interests.
    Not in any dramatically interesting way that discounted the fanboyism in my opinion. And it's just a difference between Tony versus Steve and the respective characters' relationship with them, and Sam had personality and interests that were expounded on in his show.
    I don't see it as gradual because I don't see what she's building up on. She starts off as this random spy lady and bounces from narrative to narrative without a clear roadmap. At least, that's what I got. That's why I didn't really understand why so many wanted her to have her own movie
    Serious, stoic, spy lady with a tragic past learns about true heroism and doing the right thing through her experience with the other Avengers and becoming a public Superhero and that leads her to take back her life and her past to try and make up for the mistakes and tragedy and be a better person.

    At least that's what I got .

    Of course I still prefer comic Widow to MCU Widow.
    I guess you could see that but she's not Jan so I'm not comparing her to Jan. Yeah, she's not much like Nadia in terms of personality, but Nadia was only re-introduced into comics after the first movie came out.
    She's an OC Wasp so I'm just going to keep comparing her to Jan.

  5. #4160
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    What? I just showed how the supposed Steve plot hole can be explained so that it isn't a plot hole.
    Sorry, I didn't do a good job of getting my point across. You explained it in a way that would have made sense and gotten rid of the plot hole. What I meant to say is that some of the inaccuracies in the movie could be explained away by audience imagination without actually any changes being made to the film itself. But the Cap plot hole would have required some alterations in my opinion (such as yours). Endgame explained its time travel rules fine, but they didn't actually show and/or talk about Steve coming back from any other timelines. It just had Joe Biden show up sitting on a bench at the end of the film. So folks can definitely assume that he actually never left his own timeline. There's plenty of online chatter asking why Captain America would not do anything if he knew JFk was gonna be assassinated and that 9/11 was gonna happen. That shows to me that Endgame confused audiences in how it portrayed its version of time travel.

  6. #4161
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    McFeely/Markus seem to believe that removing Infinity Stones is what causes the timeline to splinter and Steve not having Infinity Stones leads to the BTF rules.

    Anyway, the Russos have made it clear that any time travel, regardless of whether you remove Infinity Stones will cause an alternate timelines. Also, we just finished Loki's show and we saw alternate timelines being created without Infinity Stones. That should have put a nail in the 'Steve was always Peggy's husband' theories.
    But I've seen online comments still asking why Cap didn't intervene during certain events of the past seventy years. I think they should have explicitly explained what happened with Captain America during the Loki series. That way all confusion would have been cleared up. I actually thought Falcon and Winter Soldier MIGHT address Steve's fate, but they didn't touch on it either. Marvel LOVES its exposition, so audiences would have been been prepared for an explanation (even a long and drawn-out boring one).
    Last edited by Albert1981; 09-19-2021 at 08:26 AM.

  7. #4162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The emotional stakes were focused on the Pym's but it feels like Scott was the one driving the plot and it became more about his dynamic with the Pym's than just about Hope finding her mother.
    Are you sure? Hope literally kidnaps him which is what brings him in. From that point on Scott is mostly a plot device for Hank's and Hope's plan. They arrange the black market meeting, they bring Scott with them to Bill Foster, the villain's plan is in opposition to the Pym's goal (Scott is just along for the ride). The only active decision Scott makes is breaking out Hank and Hope from prison.

    A lot of these things also apply to the first movie, except that Scott plans the heist and his family has bigger emotional stakes than the Pyms in the first outing.

    I'm down for Wasp leading the Avengers but Hope's not Janet. Actually, is Evangeline Lilly even that short?
    Haha, I meant shortest as in her power is to shrink. It's not usually the type of power you associate with the leader of a superhero team.


    Not in any dramatically interesting way that discounted the fanboyism in my opinion. And it's just a difference between Tony versus Steve and the respective characters' relationship with them, and Sam had personality and interests that were expounded on in his show.
    Yup. The only disagreement that Tony and Peter have is that Peter wants to be part of the action and Tony wants him to stay back. This happens in Civil War, Homecoming, Infinity War and is turned around in Far From Home with Tony giving Peter all of this responsibility that Peter doesn't want.

  8. #4163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    But I've seen online comments still asking why Cap didn't intervene during certain events of the past seventy years. I think they should have explicitly explained what happened with Captain America during the Loki series. That way all confusion would have been cleared up. I actually thought Falcon and Winter Soldier MIGHT address Steve's fate, but they didn't touch on it either. Marvel LOVES its exposition, so audiences would have been been prepared for an explanation (even a long and drawn-out boring one).
    I don't know why you're not getting it despite three other posters saying it: Steve didn't live in our timeline. He lived out his life in an alternate timeline. Even if he rescued Bucky earlier, nipped Hydra in the bud, ended the Cold War earlier and murdered Kissinger, Regean and Bush Jr. in their sleep, it wouldn't have affected the main timeline which would have unfolded exactly the way it did.

  9. #4164
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I don't know why you're not getting it despite three other posters saying it: Steve didn't live in our timeline. He lived out his life in an alternate timeline. Even if he rescued Bucky earlier, nipped Hydra in the bud, ended the Cold War earlier and murdered Kissinger, Regean and Bush Jr. in their sleep, it wouldn't have affected the main timeline which would have unfolded exactly the way it did.
    Dude, I get it. What's not to get? The Russos said he lived in an alternate timeline, so I accept their explanation. I'm saying that there are PLENTY of folks who STILL are asking why Steve didn't do **** for seventy years and hang out with Peggy Carter for all that time (and this is AFTER Loki aired on Disney Plus). That means LOTS of people still believe in the "closed loop time travel" theory for Endgame. They're still debating it NOW. In my opinion, that means Marvel Studios just didn't make things clear enough. So I say, just explain it again in a way that leaves no doubt. If Endgame had adopted Chicago Bastard's idea, we wouldn't even be talking about this.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 09-19-2021 at 09:08 AM.

  10. #4165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    The emotional stakes were focused on the Pym's but it feels like Scott was the one driving the plot and it became more about his dynamic with the Pym's than just about Hope finding her mother.
    I think that's because the predominately male filmmakers often struggle with female characters, unfortunately. That's why Jan wasn't even in any of the movies until AM&W.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm down for Wasp leading the Avengers but Hope's not Janet. Actually, is Evangeline Lilly even that short?

    Not in any dramatically interesting way that discounted the fanboyism in my opinion. And it's just a difference between Tony versus Steve and the respective characters' relationship with them, and Sam had personality and interests that were expounded on in his show.
    I disagree. Peter rejected being an Avenger, and had many disagreements in Infinity War. Sam just parroted Steve's talking points until FaWS where he rejected the shield. Peter looking up to Tony doesn't negate any of his other actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Serious, stoic, spy lady with a tragic past learns about true heroism and doing the right thing through her experience with the other Avengers and becoming a public Superhero and that leads her to take back her life and her past to try and make up for the mistakes and tragedy and be a better person.

    At least that's what I got .

    Of course I still prefer comic Widow to MCU Widow.
    That's what I got on paper, but not in practice. In practice, I feel she's just a random spy lady added to expand the roster. All her redemption stuff is just talk, so it's hard for me to identify with her. Her personality is serviceable, but doesn't stand out next to the more interesting heroes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    She's an OC Wasp so I'm just going to keep comparing her to Jan.
    But they're not the same characters. Hope is vaguely based on Hope Pym from MC2. So I don't think it's an apt comparison.

  11. #4166
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I think that's because the predominately male filmmakers often struggle with female characters, unfortunately. That's why Jan wasn't even in any of the movies until AM&W.
    I don't know if it's so much a struggle with female characters per se so much as just still viewing it as an Ant-Man film at the end of the day. Maybe it's connected though.
    I disagree. Peter rejected being an Avenger, and had many disagreements in Infinity War. Sam just parroted Steve's talking points until FaWS where he rejected the shield. Peter looking up to Tony doesn't negate any of his other actions.
    Rejecting being an Avenger didn't matter in the long run and the only time they really disagree is when Peter hops a ride on the trip into space. I think it's very reductive to say Sam just parroted Steve's lines but I also feel like Peter being a Stark fanboy seeps into almost everything.

    But to each their own.
    That's what I got on paper, but not in practice. In practice, I feel she's just a random spy lady added to expand the roster. All her redemption stuff is just talk, so it's hard for me to identify with her. Her personality is serviceable, but doesn't stand out next to the more interesting heroes.
    I think she's just not the kind of character or hero you gravitate towards. She's never felt like a random spy lady to me but I've never felt she was that out of place in the movies to begin with, and every movie had her putting effort in.
    But they're not the same characters. Hope is vaguely based on Hope Pym from MC2. So I don't think it's an apt comparison.
    I know they're not the same character. But as long as she has the Wasp name, I feel it's fair to compare her to Janet.

  12. #4167
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    I'm with MindofShadow when it comes to this time travel/multiversal stuff. By Endgame doing what it did, you now have viewers talking about two Captain Americas existing in the same timeline and one of them apparently acting out of character by letting bad **** happen while he lives a happy life with some dame from the 1940s. That's NOT what the movie was getting at. This should not be a thing.

    But I'm gonna be consistent here. I don't love ALL "grounded" superhero movies EITHER. I was VERY disappointed in the Black Widow movie. Unlike several posters on this thread, I thought Natasha was GREAT in Endgame. Indeed, she was my FAVORITE character in that film. I enjoyed her interactions with the Avengers and for the first time ever I didn't think she was an "action figure" hero in that film. And though Black Widow did as well as could be expected at the box office during the pandemic, I still think it disappointed compared to Shang-Chi (released when the Delta Variant was wreaking even more havoc). There's no way in hell in my opinion that Black Widow's movie should struggle against competition like Old and Snake Eyes (films that were almost UNIVERSALLY panned). It's easily a much better film than a lot of the other stuff that was coming out at the time. Disney should have NEVER released Black Widow while Loki's show had not concluded either. I thought at the time it was a bad call and I still believe that. I absolutely wanted Natasha's swan song to be awesome, even though her movie took place in a weird place on the timeline. And there was stuff in it I liked a lot. Speaking Russian, Mission Impossible styled masks, and fake families infiltrating into American society was so cool. The MCU was doing some interesting things there. But to me, things just fell apart in the last act. It's safe to say, I HATED the way ScarJo's character ended her time in the MCU. Man, I loved pretty much EVERY MCU movie from the first three phases. I just felt in movies and shows like Black Widow and Loki (I have to say Loki might possibly be my favorite MCU character by the way) there were a lot of attempts at humor and sentimentality and to me they just largely fell flat (usually Disney is good at this kind of thing). I NEVER felt that way about any of the 2008-2019 Marvel movies. But then again, I fully acknowledge that I'm in a distinct minority here when it comes to my feelings about Phase 4. I'm hoping Shang-Chi is great.

  13. #4168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't know if it's so much a struggle with female characters per se so much as just still viewing it as an Ant-Man film at the end of the day. Maybe it's connected though.
    But it's supposed to be Ant-Man & Wasp

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Rejecting being an Avenger didn't matter in the long run and the only time they really disagree is when Peter hops a ride on the trip into space. I think it's very reductive to say Sam just parroted Steve's lines but I also feel like Peter being a Stark fanboy seeps into almost everything.

    But to each their own.
    I don't think that's reductive because that's how it looked to me. I think it's more reductive to call Peter just a Stark fanboy. I think that's a somewhat overhated aspect, especially when he has a distinct personality compared to a more lackluster character like Sam or Bucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think she's just not the kind of character or hero you gravitate towards. She's never felt like a random spy lady to me but I've never felt she was that out of place in the movies to begin with, and every movie had her putting effort in.
    I don't think every movie made the right effort with her. I can like all kinds of characters but they need the right amount of good characterization, and she seems like she's almost there but not quite. She was ok in Winter Soldier and Infinity War, but that's about it for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I know they're not the same character. But as long as she has the Wasp name, I feel it's fair to compare her to Janet.
    I'd compare MCU Jan to comic book Jan. Hope isn't the same person so the comparison doesn't fit

  14. #4169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    And though Black Widow did as well as could be expected at the box office during the pandemic, I still think it disappointed compared to Shang-Chi (released when the Delta Variant was wreaking even more havoc).
    The Delta variant had next to zero impact on moviegoers as the last weeks have shown. Other movies like Free Guy also did well during the Delta variant rise so that theory can be put to rest. There are people who avoid theatres because of the virus but these people did so in July as much as they do now, whereas most people who didn't care in July also don't care now. Nothing points to the Delta variant having a big impact.

    What is a big factor that can't be denied although you were nonetheless completely ignoring it in your posting is the parallel release on Disney+, and therefore one can't make a fair comparison of their respective box office results. But if you want to compare them it may be surprising to you that even with theatrical exclusivity Shang-Chi will barely beat Black Widow's worldwide box office as BW did better overseas, but of course most media coverage is only mentioning the US result to paint their preferred picture.

    As things stand BW will likely turn out more profit (including Disney+ PA) for Disney than Shang-Chi (at least as long as we are ignoring a potentially expensive lawsuit ), so much for it being a disappointment.

    Here's how: Minus the share of theater owners and streaming device producers BW has brought in roughly 300 million USD to Disney's pockets. To reach the same amount Shang-Chi would need a box office of at least 550 million, which is completely out of the cards (barring a miraculous China release), it will land at 450 million worldwide at best.
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  15. #4170
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Are you sure? Hope literally kidnaps him which is what brings him in. From that point on Scott is mostly a plot device for Hank's and Hope's plan. They arrange the black market meeting, they bring Scott with them to Bill Foster, the villain's plan is in opposition to the Pym's goal (Scott is just along for the ride). The only active decision Scott makes is breaking out Hank and Hope from prison.

    A lot of these things also apply to the first movie, except that Scott plans the heist and his family has bigger emotional stakes than the Pyms in the first outing.
    I know but he was so front-and-center it felt like his relationships and connection to the Pyms took over the plot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    But it's supposed to be Ant-Man & Wasp
    I know. But just in practice...
    I don't think that's reductive because that's how it looked to me. I think it's more reductive to call Peter just a Stark fanboy. I think that's a somewhat overhated aspect, especially when he has a distinct personality compared to a more lackluster character like Sam or Bucky.
    I feel like that's missing a lot of the nuances with Sam and Bucky that got expanded on in FaTWS but to each their own. MCU Peter is problematic in his own right and doesn't have the most distinct Spider-Man personality but that's a whole different subject.
    I don't think every movie made the right effort with her. I can like all kinds of characters but they need the right amount of good characterization, and she seems like she's almost there but not quite. She was ok in Winter Soldier and Infinity War, but that's about it for me.
    I thought her characterization was pretty consistent and developed from movie-to-movie. I just don't think she's the kind of character you're into.
    I'd compare MCU Jan to comic book Jan. Hope isn't the same person so the comparison doesn't fit
    If Hope's going to be the main Wasp, then I think it's fair to compare her to Janet since she's the only other main Wasp.

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