The Heroes Return Era of the Avengers

[Mister Mets]

What do you guys think of the Heroes Return period of the Avengers comics? This would mainly be the comics published between Heroes Reborn and Disassembled. What are your favorite stories and runs in either the core titles, or the solo books? What do you think about the comics that aren't your favorites?

I've been wanting to reread the Kurt Busiek/ George Perez run of The Avengers, but then I was thinking I haven't read all of his run on Iron Man, and Thunderbolts, which feature relevant characters. And it's a good chance to check out related runs that I've been meaning to read like Waid's Captain America and Jurgens' Thor. And finally it's a chance to reread Priest's run on Black Panther.

The books I intend to go through in something close to the order they were published are...

• Avengers Volume 3
• Avengers Forever/ JLA VS Avengers
• Busiek's Thunderbolts/ Nicezia's Thunderbolts
• Captain America Volumes 3 and 4 (along with the Mark Waid/ Garney issues pre-Heroes Reborn)
• Captain America Sentinel of Liberty/ Captain America and Falcon (and The Falcon mini-series from the 80s written by Priest when he went by James Owsley)
• Priest's Black Panther
• Jurgens Thor
• Iron Man Volume 3
• Assorted mini-series and specials (Avengers Two, Avengers #1 1/2, The Ultron Imperative, The Crew)

There are some side projects I'll consider on a case by case basis (IE- John Cassady's Union Jack mini-series.)

It'll be interesting to see how stories I've enjoyed work in the context of the larger runs, and how those runs which reference events in the other books work as part of a unified whole.

Note- I know I'm mainly mentioning writers here, even though this era includes work by all-time greats like Perez, John Romita Jr, Mark Bagley and Carlos Pacheco. The writers tend to have more issues on the individual titles, so it's useful as a reference point.

[Nomads1]

Three of my top ten Avengers stories come during that era. Avengers Forever by Busiek, Stern and Pacheco; Ultron Unlimited by Busiek and George Perez, and Kang Dynasty by Busiek, Alan Davis, Manuel Garcia and Kieron Dwyer, among others.

Peace

[Tony Stark]

Three of my top ten Avengers stories come during that era. Avengers Forever by Busiek, Stern and Pacheco; Ultron Unlimited by Busiek and George Perez, and Kang Dynasty by Busiek, Alan Davis, Manuel Garcia and Kieron Dwyer, among others.

Peace

They’re rereleasing Kang Dynasty in trade this week.

[Nomads1]

They’re rereleasing Kang Dynasty in trade this week.

Thanks. I know. But I already have it in TPB, and it's still in fair condition, despite the many times I've re-read it.

Peace

[Mister Mets]

Heroes Return provides a pretty clean break for the Avengers, although there are still some earlier comics that are relevant to it, especially Mark Waid and Ron Garney's earlier run on Captain America. I'll cover those issues first. They were so well-regarded that they were brought back immediately after Heroes Return, and this is a chance to reread my Operation Rebirth Premiere Edition hardcover.



Captain America #444
This story has a weird format. Cap is believed dead but the body is missing, as a result of the end of the earlier run. Now villains hold hostages demanding he show up, and the Avengers are inspired to save the day. This is a weird first issue for the Captain America, with the primary focus on the Avengers. For my purposes, it’s useful as a showcase for the pre-Heroes Reborn/ Return Avengers.
I’m not a big fan of the art, and this remains consistent for this stretch of issues. There are some impressive sequences, and there’s plenty of stuff that Ron Garney does later that I like, but the storytelling seems off, the 1990s colors are kind of garish and it’s kind of sketchy. Literally- it looks sketched in at times.
The story itself is okay, with a decent exploration of Cap’s impact on his teammates. I don’t like the declaration of his death, since death is so much of a revolving door within the Marvel Universe, which cheapens the experiences of the others. It doesn't help that Cap and all of the Avengers will be believed dead within a year.
B+



Captain America #445-448
Now we get the first full story. Captain America is resuscitated with the help of two people he believed dead: Sharon Carter (who had been gone since the Englehart run) and the Red Skull. A previous story had established that Hitler’s consciousness was in the Cosmic Cube, which is an appropriately apocalyptic threat for Cap. And the story sells the idea that this was all seeded in earlier runs.
There are some decent complications. Cap is weakened as a result of the bad stuff that led to him being declared dead. Sharon Carter has gone through years of trauma, as a result of a betrayal when she was declared dead (there are some shades of Born Again Karen Page, and a precedent for her MCU heel turn here.) And there’s a final twist where Cap seems to get everything he ever wanted, but it's part of a larger ploty.
I've seen it on best of lists. I wouldn’t say this is a top ten Captain America story for me, but there are bright spots.
B+



Captain America #450-453
Following his previous adventure, Captain America is persona non grata. He’s punished in an effective and unusual way, although this story seems to depend on some plot induced stupidity with Captain America deciding not to explain basic relevant details to authorities in the wake of an adventure where he broke some major rules.
The Machinesmith, who I recognize as getting killed off in the Stern/ Byrne run, but who did seem to pop up again in Iron Man, has a vague plot to infiltrate the US, and Cap takes some unpleasant measures to fight him, including an alliance with someone despicable. A decent set piece shows the risks Cap will take out of loyalty, when he’s got a working parachute but realizes that Sharon Carter does not.
B+

Captain America #454
It’s a decent epilogue as Cap has to save Sharon after the previous adventure left her stranded in a bad country. The double-page spreads meant to be read vertically are experimental, but seem excessive. The story shows Cap inspiring in a totalitarian setting, while it also explores Sharon Carter’s trauma.
B

[Alex_Of_X]

I'm mostly familiar with the Busiek material--Iron Man, T-bolts, Avengers--and they're all brilliant in their own ways. T-bolts is the tightest book, something Nicieza won't be able to sustain, imho. Iron man's very old school. Likely deliberately, given the Teen Tony of it all which had just wrapped. Still a very pretty book, tho a bit pale in comparison to what's coming with Quesada.

Avengers/A-Forever, tho? all-timers. I don't think it gets any better than Kang Dynasty. That one's 11/10

Oh and Priest's BP rips. Funniest marvel book this side of Squirrel girl

[Username taken]

I liked a lot of Busiek's stuff but a lot of it was very "wordy".

I didn't love this era but I really appreciated it.

[Mister Mets]

Three of my top ten Avengers stories come during that era. Avengers Forever by Busiek, Stern and Pacheco; Ultron Unlimited by Busiek and George Perez, and Kang Dynasty by Busiek, Alan Davis, Manuel Garcia and Kieron Dwyer, among others.

Peace

Some website years ago had Top 40 lists for X-Men comics and Avengers comics. The Avengers sections had commentary by Brevoort and Avengers Forever was in first place. I'm not sure I agreed with that, but I did start buying every issue of the Avengers with Ultron Unlimited, and that remains an all-time favorite. It'll be interesting to see if the other stories just read better now that I'm more familiar with the set-up.

Before I get to that, I'll cover the 1980s Falcon mini-series and the pre- Heroes Return issues of Thunderbolts. So it'll still take me a few days to get to this version of Avengers #1.

[gurkle]

This is basically "my" era of Marvel even though I wasn't reading comics at the time, because it was Busiek's Avengers that got me into Marvel, and so I naturally read a lot of the other comics of that period. To this day I can't look at some of those Comicraft lettering fonts in other comics without associating them with late '90s Marvel.

The era was what was dubbed "neoclassical" at the time, with creators trying to ditch the EDGY EXTREME style of the early '90s (or at least stereotypically associated with it) and get back to more traditional superheroics. Busiek for example is heavily influenced by the 1970s Avengers, maybe partly because George Pérez was the definitive Avengers artist of the 1970s, but there are also a lot of references to Steve Englehart's run or conscious parallels, like the Triune Understanding is their take on the kind of satirical villains Englehart and Steve Gerber used to feature.

I'm mostly familiar with the Busiek material--Iron Man, T-bolts, Avengers--and they're all brilliant in their own ways. T-bolts is the tightest book, something Nicieza won't be able to sustain, imho. Iron man's very old school. Likely deliberately, given the Teen Tony of it all which had just wrapped. Still a very pretty book, tho a bit pale in comparison to what's coming with Quesada.

Avengers/A-Forever, tho? all-timers. I don't think it gets any better than Kang Dynasty. That one's 11/10

Oh and Priest's BP rips. Funniest marvel book this side of Squirrel girl

"Thunderbolts" is my favorite thing Busiek has ever done and while Fabian Nicieza did a good job taking over for him, he relied a bit too heavily for my taste on surprise twists and storylines that are teased for months without ever happening (which I find more typical of 1990s X-Men).

"Iron Man" I like a lot for the first 13 issues, and then it starts to lose focus once Roger Stern takes over the scripting with issue #14. I have never liked Stern's dialogue, which is a shame because he has so many strengths (and "Avengers Forever" would have been in trouble if Stern hadn't come on board to co-plot both Iron Man and Avengers Forever, with Busiek dialoguing the latter and Stern the former). Also Carol Danvers' alcoholism is a much more effective story for me Avengers than in that second year of Iron Man.

Jurgens' "Thor" is a lot of fun and it's impressive how he manages to keep his basic story intact through so many changes in the way Marvel comics were written. 1998, it's old-school writing with thought balloons, captions and continuity references; by the end everything about the Marvel house style has changed and Jurgens has changed with it, yet you still feel like he's telling the same story. I give Tom Brevoort some credit for that; with "Avengers," "Thunderbolts" and "Thor," and later taking over "Black Panther," he was clearly the star editor of this period.

"Captain America" was better in Waid's first run than the Heroes Return era, for a bunch of reasons; the first Waid/Garney run knows what it wants to be and the second doesn't (and then Garney gets abruptly replaced with Andy Kubert). He and Garney really got screwed by "Heroes Reborn" because Captain America was the only book that was doing fine and didn't need a reset, the way Iron Man obviously did.

Priest's "Black Panther" is wonderful but I place it a bit outside this era mentally, since it started as a project for the Joe Quesada/Jimmy Palmiotti editing team that had gotten some of the characters outsourced to them (without removing them from the Marvel Universe the way Heroes Reborn did). It returned to the main editorial office after 12 issues but it definitely has a more cynical and less nostalgic take on heroism.

[ARkadelphia]

Three of my top ten Avengers stories come during that era. Avengers Forever by Busiek, Stern and Pacheco; Ultron Unlimited by Busiek and George Perez, and Kang Dynasty by Busiek, Alan Davis, Manuel Garcia and Kieron Dwyer, among others.

Peace

This guy gets it

[Mister Mets]

Since I’m going to check out Christopher Priest’s run of Black Panther, and his Captain America & Falcon mini-series, it’s worth checking out his earlier work with the Falcon, which also features a character which will be relevant to his Black Panther run.



The Falcon #1-4
The first issue has art by Paul Smith, who I love from his brief X-Men run, Nexus fill-ins and Leave it to Chance. The rest is by Mark Bright, who is solid.
It starts quite weird morally. A drunk kid is about to rape his girlfiend, when the Falcon stops him and encourages her family not to press charges, which fits with his civilian identity as a social worker. There is a sense of a guy trying to prevent someone from his neighborhood from becoming a lowlife, even if the story would be told differently now. An important context is that these comics are 40 years old. If you were to use Fantastic Four #1 as the start of a new era of comics, this is in the first third of Marvel. I’m not sure I should think about how old these comics are.

In the second issue, Falcon is attacked by a malfunctioning Sentinel, which I recall Jarvis addressing in the Busiek Avengers run. It delays him, which results in a tragic police shooting and a race riot, a story that is quite ahead of its time. Later issues feature the kidnapping of President Reagan, and a showdown with a major Spider-Man villain. It’s unrealistic even in the context of superhero stories, but there are some good sequences, and it’s legitimately thought-provoking.
B

[ComicNoobie]

I've only read some of the material from Busiek's Avengers, Thunderbolts, and Avengers Forever thanks to Omnibus volumes. Hopefully I'll get to read more of Busiek's Avengers. Of them my favorite being the Thunderbolts run. It was truly a mind blowing experience and I couldn't get enough of it. It remains one of my favorite Marvel comic runs.

[Nomads1]

"Thunderbolts" is my favorite thing Busiek has ever done and while Fabian Nicieza did a good job taking over for him, he relied a bit too heavily for my taste on surprise twists and storylines that are teased for months without ever happening (which I find more typical of 1990s X-Men).

No doubt about it. Busiek's Thunderbolts is amazing. However, IMHO, Nicieza's run was as good as his. It was, perhaps, a bit more slow burn, however, the amount of concepts it re-visited and introduced was fantastic, and so much of it deep-rooted in Marvel History. The V-Battalion and the Penace Council, Scourge, Moonstone's Kree background, Counter-Earth, the return of Humus Sapiens, etc... I really liked it.

This guy gets it

Aw, Shucks! Thanks!

Peace

[K7P5V]

I've only read some of the material from Busiek's Avengers, Thunderbolts, and Avengers Forever thanks to Omnibus volumes. Hopefully I'll get to read more of Busiek's Avengers. Of them my favorite being the Thunderbolts run. It was truly a mind blowing experience and I couldn't get enough of it. It remains one of my favorite Marvel comic runs.

I know, right?! That ending is The Stuff of Legend (IMHO):

[Mister Mets]

I know, right?! That ending is The Stuff of Legend (IMHO):

It's a big moment.

Incredible Hulk #449
The first appearance of the Thunderbolts by Peter David and Mike Deodato.had to be an odd comic when it was published. Before Thunderbolts #1 came out, this may come across as a bland intro to a new superteam. The biggest twist in the story is that when they order the Hulk to surrender, he complies, which puts them in an awkward position unaware of his trap. There are clues about past histories between him and someone’s secret identity. But it had to be fun to check this out after the twist, when it turns out that the bland superhero aspect is all part of a cover.
B+



Tales of the Marvel Universe Thunderbolts story
It’s a prelude to Thunderbolts as ordinary people lament the loss of the superheroes. A cabbie has an anecdote about the Invisible Woman, which I think came from a Lee/ Kirby issue, and I appreciate that everyone around him has heard it so often they’re likely tired of it.Like with the Hulk story, the Thunderbolts seem bland, like generic superheroes from before Lee, Kirby and Ditko revolutionized the genre. And then Thunderbolts #1 comes out, and you realize the deception, and this just reads different.
B+

Thunderbolts #1
This is the moment Kurt Busiek became an A-list writer. He was known for one of the best Marvel comics ever with Marvels, and Astro City, which was an indie. His only ongoing was Untold Tales of Spider-Man, which was great but didn’t exactly sell well. So he’s put with veteran artist Mark Bagley on a new superhero title. If it didn’t work, he’d be the equivalent of the writers on obscure team books which flopped frequently in the aftermath of the spectator boom (Force Works, Ultrafroce, etc.).
Obviously it worked, which is likely the main reason he was offered the Avengers and Iron Man when Marvel reversed the Heroes Reborn (according to an interview, he asked for Iron Man and was offered Avengers because George Perez wanted to work with him, which had to be quite flattering.)
https://www.popmatters.com/interview...496004289.html
The issue is great, a set-up to one of the best twists in Marvel history. A humble new superteam shows up in the aftermath of Heroes Reborn, with the Avengers and Fantastic Four believed dead. They get into a showdown with the Rat Pack, a group of Looters for Hire, who aren’t exactly A-listers (their only other appearances are Thunderbolts #4 and a novel) but that serves to set-up a showdown with bigger fish with the Wrecking Crew. We get some hints of the personalities of the Thunderbolts, and decent fight scenes. The main thing is that the public of Manhattan really needs these bright new superheroes.
And then we get the real secret. And it all clicks into place. Hot damn!
One scene that’s just brilliant is MACH-1’s reaction to applause, which serves to set up a major conflict for the antiheroes, as they’re tempted by adoration as much as they ever were with crimel.
A+