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  1. #4561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Guardians didn't help. I think that shifted things even further to being more comedic and irreverent when you're trying hard to sell the audience on something.
    Sometimes I think it's because they assume audiences won't buy it if it's not self-aware enough

  2. #4562
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Which stems from how Wanda is perceived thanks to HoM. Unfortunately that is pervasive and people believe Wanda did what she did out of being so into having a family that she disregarded everyone's safety. Despite that being no part of her character for the 40 years before AD/HoM.
    Anyone who takes that away from Wandavision needs to rewatch the series. Wanda was culpable in the end but it's clearly shown she didn't realise the pain and trauma her grief was inflicting on the people of Westview. I doubt she thought her power over them was harmless but she didn't mean to do what she did. Wanda lost control, everything and everyone around her seemed better off in the sitcom world and then she fixed her mistake when she learned from it. Wandavision is a story of unmitigated grief, not of villainy.

  3. #4563
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    Of course she didn't mean it. But I suspect some feel she got off too easily

  4. #4564
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    I wouldn't call Wanda a villain, but she wasn't really the hero of the story either.

    (I don't think anyone was better off in the sitcom world when we learned that some of the people were basically lifeless husks, including children).

    Wanda had more agency and wasn't in complete control but I still don't think it was that much of a better development than some of her less than stellar writing moments in the comics.

  5. #4565
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    Oh nobody was better off in that sitcom world. Remember, all of them shared her nightmares. The kids were basically put into comas for most of it (which is sort of a mercy, really). People on the edge of the hex were literally trapped repeating small motions (like hanging up laundry) for....who knows how long.

    There's no question that the entire experience was a pure nightmare for everyone trapped in that bubble. Wanda convinced herself they were safe and protected and happy, but even she knew deep down that it was a lie.

    I agree that she's not a villain so much as a victim who unintentionally got other people caught up in her trauma. Intent matters, and she didn't create the hex with malicious intent. But that doesn't excuse her actions either. What she did is far more f*cked up than what a lot of MCU villains try to do. And I really hope we see some ramifications and justice for the people of Westview. I like Wanda, and I like that she's such a vulnerable person as opposed to the stoic paragons who soldier on no matter what they endure. Wanda's more real for her failings and flaws and I appreciate that (and how dangerous it makes her, which is just fun). But she still needs to pay the price for her actions, and that'll be a good story when it happens (I hope).

    None of which is to say she's not a hero any longer, merely one who made a (big f*cking) mistake and needs to atone for that.
    Last edited by Ascended; 10-13-2021 at 05:43 PM.
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  6. #4566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh nobody was better off in that sitcom world. Remember, all of them shared her nightmares. The kids were basically put into comas for most of it (which is sort of a mercy, really). People on the edge of the hex were literally trapped repeating small motions (like hanging up laundry) for....who knows how long.

    There's no question that the entire experience was a pure nightmare for everyone trapped in that bubble. Wanda convinced herself they were safe and protected and happy, but even she knew deep down that it was a lie.

    I agree that she's not a villain so much as a victim who unintentionally got other people caught up in her trauma. Intent matters, and she didn't create the hex with malicious intent. But that doesn't excuse her actions either. What she did is far more f*cked up than what a lot of MCU villains try to do. And I really hope we see some ramifications and justice for the people of Westview. I like Wanda, and I like that she's such a vulnerable person as opposed to the stoic paragons who soldier on no matter what they endure. Wanda's more real for her failings and flaws and I appreciate that (and how dangerous it makes her, which is just fun). But she still needs to pay the price for her actions, and that'll be a good story when it happens (I hope).

    None of which is to say she's not a hero any longer, merely one who made a (big f*cking) mistake and needs to atone for that.
    To be honest I hate how this has lead to all those rumors about Wanda being a villain or antagonist in Multiverse of Madness.

  7. #4567
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    To be fair, those rumors started before Wandavision came out. House of M casts a long shadow, as we all know. And when we hear that another hero is gonna appear in a film, a lot of us assume there's gonna be a battle at some point (and we're usually right).

    The show just added a metric f*ck ton of fuel to the fire.

    For myself, I believe a confrontation between Strange and Wanda is probably 50/50. Marvel heroes love to fight each other, and what Wanda did in Westview definitely falls under Strange's charge of protecting the world from magical attack. Add in the fact that she's a nigh-mythical chaos witch and currently possesses the Darkhold, and I can easily see a fight between them.

    But there's the typical Marvel hero v hero fight, which isn't really a big deal, and then there's holding villain status in the story. I'll be fine if these two throw down before realizing they're (still) on the same side and work together to defeat the real threat. I will be far less understanding if she's the real threat, or willingly and knowingly working with the real threat.
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  8. #4568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    To be honest I hate how this has lead to all those rumors about Wanda being a villain or antagonist in Multiverse of Madness.
    I’m curious of Mordo’s writing in comparison to Strange and Wanda in terms of consequence with the use or misuse of their magic
    "What you call Destiny is just an equation, a product of variables" - Uatu

  9. #4569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh nobody was better off in that sitcom world. Remember, all of them shared her nightmares. The kids were basically put into comas for most of it (which is sort of a mercy, really). People on the edge of the hex were literally trapped repeating small motions (like hanging up laundry) for....who knows how long.

    There's no question that the entire experience was a pure nightmare for everyone trapped in that bubble. Wanda convinced herself they were safe and protected and happy, but even she knew deep down that it was a lie.

    I agree that she's not a villain so much as a victim who unintentionally got other people caught up in her trauma. Intent matters, and she didn't create the hex with malicious intent. But that doesn't excuse her actions either. What she did is far more f*cked up than what a lot of MCU villains try to do. And I really hope we see some ramifications and justice for the people of Westview. I like Wanda, and I like that she's such a vulnerable person as opposed to the stoic paragons who soldier on no matter what they endure. Wanda's more real for her failings and flaws and I appreciate that (and how dangerous it makes her, which is just fun). But she still needs to pay the price for her actions, and that'll be a good story when it happens (I hope).

    None of which is to say she's not a hero any longer, merely one who made a (big f*cking) mistake and needs to atone for that.
    I mean, a lot MCU villains try to commit mass murder or what would lead to mass death, she is like only worse than the Vulture type really.(If we ignore the potential death that can be caused by his weapons, but again he is much smaller in scale.

  10. #4570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    To be fair, those rumors started before Wandavision came out. House of M casts a long shadow, as we all know. And when we hear that another hero is gonna appear in a film, a lot of us assume there's gonna be a battle at some point (and we're usually right).

    The show just added a metric f*ck ton of fuel to the fire.

    For myself, I believe a confrontation between Strange and Wanda is probably 50/50. Marvel heroes love to fight each other, and what Wanda did in Westview definitely falls under Strange's charge of protecting the world from magical attack. Add in the fact that she's a nigh-mythical chaos witch and currently possesses the Darkhold, and I can easily see a fight between them.

    But there's the typical Marvel hero v hero fight, which isn't really a big deal, and then there's holding villain status in the story. I'll be fine if these two throw down before realizing they're (still) on the same side and work together to defeat the real threat. I will be far less understanding if she's the real threat, or willingly and knowingly working with the real threat.
    I'm assuming they'll battle and Strange will be able to talk her down and they'll find common ground to work together. They're logos are combined on a hat the crew are wearing so I assume we're getting a team-up.

  11. #4571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm assuming they'll battle and Strange will be able to talk her down and they'll find common ground to work together. They're logos are combined on a hat the crew are wearing so I assume we're getting a team-up.
    I'd rather Voodoo and Strange team up.

    I'm a simple man wanting simple stories I guess lol
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  12. #4572
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    I'm not sure why they have to fight. If it's a story about the multiverse, why not just make it about that?

  13. #4573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    To be fair, those rumors started before Wandavision came out. House of M casts a long shadow, as we all know. And when we hear that another hero is gonna appear in a film, a lot of us assume there's gonna be a battle at some point (and we're usually right).

    The show just added a metric f*ck ton of fuel to the fire.

    For myself, I believe a confrontation between Strange and Wanda is probably 50/50. Marvel heroes love to fight each other, and what Wanda did in Westview definitely falls under Strange's charge of protecting the world from magical attack. Add in the fact that she's a nigh-mythical chaos witch and currently possesses the Darkhold, and I can easily see a fight between them.
    The marvel hero vs hero fight with Civil War been the most central movie is that the plot or lesson tends to gets lost within the fight. this is one of marvel weakness in writing when you compare it too other movies outside the disney bubble, hardly ever watched a marvel film were the fight has just been secondary, the fight is always primary, this is what has made it a typical marvel fight. I think marvel now has the reputation of audiences looking forwards to fights, you saw this during the early reactions of shang chi and it was all about the.... best action movie yet.

    However to do this with Wanda or any other character in marvel with the power of changing reality adding that to mental health issues just does not work much, maybe I am saying this more from the X-MEN POV because I am more familiar with that and their Telepaths like Legion or Xavier, but the themes of this kind story needs more psychoanalysis story plot points like that Alfred Hitchcock's Spellbound movie and less generic typical comic book fighting, although fight scenes can be sprinkled, however it should be unique and crazy in a smart way or metaphorical. and maybe far more toned down.

    If it was on some kind of astral plane kind of thing or maybe like Nolan's Inception than just a fight were city and building explode or the typical marvel cgi third arc. it just cant be a generic comic bookie fight we have seen 100x times when you are dealing with characters that have reality manipulative powers.

    Also in a way this is why I have felt Wanda worked better as a X-MEN character than an Avengers character, because not only do warping reality fits more with reoccurring X-MEN themes like telepathy and psychoanalysis compared to the supernaturality of magic , but also X-MEN do this kind kinds stories better with more unique interesting kind of fight scenes like Xavier vs Jean Grey in X-MEN Evolution finale or one of my more favourite is Legion vs Shadow King.



    It is not just the typical predictable comic book fight. I will take this kind comic book fight scene over any third arc fight in a comic book film right now, because not only is it more original, quite creative, unique and very metaphorical, it also keeps many fun comic bookie elements and the craziness of super powered people who can bend reality. it is a bonkers and surprising kind of fight scene but it works in the content of this kinds of themes.

    However, I dont see this as marvel style and marvel has gotten so reliant to their very basic CGI action fights, that if Wanda should fight dr strange, it will be more of the same we have seen already and trust when I say it is not getting even more generically predictable with how the final arc of Shang Chi and Black Widow played out and yes also the finale of Wandavsion itself with Wanda vs Agatha, which got the fair criticism it deserved.

    Wanda is a great character with many layers, I have always ranked her among the Xaviers, Jean Greys and Legions of the marvel universe. she deserves more than what the MCU formula that is so restrictive in story , themes and even visuals can offer her with their ''fights''
    Last edited by Castle; 10-14-2021 at 08:08 AM.

  14. #4574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Guardians didn't help. I think that shifted things even further to being more comedic and irreverent when you're trying hard to sell the audience on something.
    Guardians would have still been okay for a bunch of d list characters no one knew nothing about, I trust it was easier to adapt in film anyhow. Nonetheless, all of that would have been fine if it was just contained to Guardians but when Thor Ragnarok copied Guardians, things really shifted.

    Ragnarok should not have been a comedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    It has nothign to do with Disney selling it to kids

    It started with Iron Man and they copied it. Disney didn't make Iron Man. And IH made at the same timewasn't quippy.

    Iron Man gave them a template of sorts but it got solidified by Whedon (who naturallly makes quippyp dialogue) and how well Avengers sold.

    I have no problem at all with the quipping unless it is done at the wrong time
    I think they do it more kids, it is the only logical explanation.

    Iron Man 1 or phase 1 template did not give passible roads to what they have now. In the contrary and what we know for sure with the sequels of iron man 2 and 3, based on what Mickey Rouke has said and knowing that Iron Man 3 was meant to do the Demon in a Bottle comic, the tone of Iron Man films would have shifted to far less comedic. Also look at it this way, can you see Edward Norton's Hulk in Ragnarok? yeah, me neither. I cant see it.
    Last edited by Castle; 10-14-2021 at 08:04 AM.

  15. #4575

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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    The marvel hero vs hero fight with Civil War been the most central movie is that the plot or lesson tends to gets lost within the fight. this is one of marvel weakness in writing when you compare it too other movies outside the disney bubble, hardly ever watched a marvel film were the fight has just been secondary, the fight is always primary, this is what has made it a typical marvel fight. I think marvel now has the reputation of audiences looking forwards to fights, you saw this during the early reactions of shang chi and it was all about the.... best action movie yet.

    However to do this with Wanda or any other character in marvel with the power of changing reality adding that to mental health issues just does not work much, maybe I am saying this more from the X-MEN POV because I am more familiar with that and their Telepaths like Legion or Xavier, but the themes of this kind story needs more psychoanalysis story plot points like that Alfred Hitchcock's Spellbound movie and less generic typical comic book fighting, although fight scenes can be sprinkled, however it should be unique and crazy in a smart way or metaphorical. and maybe far more toned down.

    If it was on some kind of astral plane kind of thing or maybe like Nolan's Inception than just a fight were city and building explode or the typical marvel cgi third arc. it just cant be a generic comic bookie fight we have seen 100x times when you are dealing with characters that have reality manipulative powers.

    Also in a way this is why I have felt Wanda worked better as a X-MEN character than an Avengers character, because not only do warping reality fits more with reoccurring X-MEN themes like telepathy and psychoanalysis compared to the supernaturality of magic , but also X-MEN do this kind kinds stories better with more unique interesting kind of fight scenes like Xavier vs Jean Grey in X-MEN Evolution finale or one of my more favourite is Legion vs Shadow King.



    It is not just the typical predictable comic book fight. I will take this kind comic book fight scene over any third arc fight in a comic book film right now, because not only is it more original, quite creative, unique and very metaphorical, it also keeps many fun comic bookie elements and the craziness of super powered people who can bend reality. it is a bonkers and surprising kind of fight scene but it works in the content of this kinds of themes.

    However, I dont see this as marvel style and marvel has gotten so reliant to their very basic CGI action fights, that if Wanda should fight dr strange, it will be more of the same we have seen already and trust when I say it is not getting even more generically predictable with how the final arc of Shang Chi and Black Widow played out and yes also the finale of Wandavsion itself with Wanda vs Agatha, which got the fair criticism it deserved.

    Wanda is a great character with many layers, I have always ranked her among the Xaviers, Jean Greys and Legions of the marvel universe. she deserves more than what the MCU formula that is so restrictive in story , themes and even visuals can offer her with their ''fights''
    Wanda had 9 issues with anything X-Men. And was never a part of them. Reality warping is a big part of magic as well. Wanda had over 50 years with the Avengers. Literally thousands of comics. Evolution ran counter to everything her character was for most of her career.
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