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  1. #11896
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I just hope Billy is still a nerd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    She wasnt a villain and according to mcu THE Scarlet Witch is the bigger villain in the coven's own lore. Also It doesnt matter that her main goal was wanting to siphon chaos magic the end result was still heroic in my books bc she broke the Westview residents from the thrall of a person that held them hostage.
    But she wasn't really there to do that, she just wanted Wanda's power.

  2. #11897
    Niffleheim
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But she wasn't really there to do that, she just wanted Wanda's power.
    That's what I said
    "Dedra Meero is not just a woman in a men’s world, but a fascist in a world of fascists.” - Denise Gough

  3. #11898
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Agatha wasn't doing that out of the goodness of her heart, though. She could've saved the people of Westview from the beginning since she always knew, but she didn't do that and kept what was going on as a bargaining chip until the end so she could make Wanda feel guilty. If she had to kill everyone in Westview to achieve her goal, she probably would've, as we saw her killing her entire coven in the past. That's what made her a villain.



    The ''Billy wasn't THAT gay in the comics'' take annoys me because it's like people are ignoring that his backstory revolves around him being bullied for being gay from a young age. If people could tell he was gay and bully him for it even before he was out, then that means he was visibly queer to some degree. And you're absolutely right; comics aren't the best metric for a nuanced analysis of somebody's mannerisms due to the visual limitations of the medium. We don't know what he sounds like, or the way that he moves, walks, etc. A director would have to create those things for live-action from scratch, basically. Also, he barely did anything in this trailer, so people are quite literally just going off of a gasp and a scream. lol

    If anything, I'm more concerned about the writing of his origin story here (based on some leaks that I'm still hoping are not true) than what he wears or how he looks like.
    Quoted for truth! People seem to be equating “not straight passing” as “stereotypically gay”.

  4. #11899
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Hmm. Witch's Road. Should that make me think of Margali Szardos and her 'Winding Way?'



    There could be some mitigating circumstance that even Agatha herself is unaware of, like some malign entity using her to eliminate magical threats or whatever, subtly fueling her ambition.

    It could even be twisted to where she's been manipulated into rationalizing her actions, that 'there's only so much magic in the world, and it is tied to the life of every thing in the world. The more sorcerers and witches there are, tapping on that power, the weaker the ecosystem becomes, the more people become sick, etc. By having less constant little drains on the magical ecosystem, spread all over the world, by concentrating it the way people like I and Mordo are doing, drastically reducing the number of magic-workers on the planet, draining away it's vital energies, the more the world itself can heal and sustain itself.'

    It's all be completely monkey balls, but they'd have a rationale for why 'too many sorcerers' or 'must steal the power of other witches' is a noble act to save the world.

    Also, we know that Wanda's Hex was messing with the minds and memories of everyone in it. It'd also be entirely possible (and, knowing Marvel, even plausible. Sigh.) that they'd blame Agatha's 'faulty memories of being a villain' on Wanda's Hex messing with her mind and 'casting' her as the 'villain of Wanda's story' (because obviously Wanda wasn't going to cast *herself* as the villain of her story!), complete with some whacky backstory to justify her villainy.

    Plenty of options. Any halfway decent writer will have much better ideas than these.
    Sure.. wheel out Chthon again... why not?

  5. #11900
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    That's what I said
    So we can agree she's not a great person .

  6. #11901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    So we can agree she's not a great person .
    We can agree that both Wanda and Agatha arent great ppl
    "Dedra Meero is not just a woman in a men’s world, but a fascist in a world of fascists.” - Denise Gough

  7. #11902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    We can agree that both Wanda and Agatha arent great ppl
    We can agree that both of them suffered from writing that made them worse than they should have been, but Agatha can't compare to Wanda for being screwed over, especially since this show will probably give Agatha some redemption while Wanda remains "dead" until some movie chooses to bring her back.

    That said I think it worked in WandaVision that Agatha wasn't really a villain and didn't do anything overtly evil. It was a story about Wanda learning to let go of her selfish needs and stop letting her grief hurt other people, so Agatha guided her to that by being brutally honest with Wanda. She sort of had the affect of a villain but she was really not villainous at all and she was obviously right that it was dangerous for Wanda to possess so much power she didn't understand. And Monica, who constantly talked about empathy and kindness, was unable to help anyone while Agatha ended up saving both Westview and Wanda.

    Then of course the next team botched it all by having Wanda go through the same arc again but worse, but if Kevin Feige had been saner, WandaVision would have ended with Wanda and Agatha both starting to become better people.

    Sadly Kevin Feige thinks Wanda's worst comic stories are her best, so she's in exactly the same spot she was in '00s comics, not allowed to appear while other characters talk about her.

  8. #11903
    Mighty Member ComicNoobie's Avatar
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    If I don't get a scene of Billy acknowledging the Sound of Music or singing a song for the Sound of Music then I will be so disappointed. That's what I need.

  9. #11904
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    We can agree that both of them suffered from writing that made them worse than they should have been, but Agatha can't compare to Wanda for being screwed over, especially since this show will probably give Agatha some redemption while Wanda remains "dead" until some movie chooses to bring her back.

    That said I think it worked in WandaVision that Agatha wasn't really a villain and didn't do anything overtly evil. It was a story about Wanda learning to let go of her selfish needs and stop letting her grief hurt other people, so Agatha guided her to that by being brutally honest with Wanda. She sort of had the affect of a villain but she was really not villainous at all and she was obviously right that it was dangerous for Wanda to possess so much power she didn't understand. And Monica, who constantly talked about empathy and kindness, was unable to help anyone while Agatha ended up saving both Westview and Wanda.

    Then of course the next team botched it all by having Wanda go through the same arc again but worse, but if Kevin Feige had been saner, WandaVision would have ended with Wanda and Agatha both starting to become better people.

    Sadly Kevin Feige thinks Wanda's worst comic stories are her best, so she's in exactly the same spot she was in '00s comics, not allowed to appear while other characters talk about her.
    I didn't want Disassembled Wanda and I wanted more genuine mentor Agatha.

  10. #11905
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I didn't want Disassembled Wanda and I wanted more genuine mentor Agatha.
    Agreed on both, and Agatha could have become Wanda’s mentor after the events of WandaVision, but instead we got… what we got.

    And everything we wanted to see, like Wanda learning more about magic and Doctor Strange finding out she’s a real witch, happened offscreen (well, basically everything important in that film happened either offscreen or in a throwaway line).

  11. #11906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I didn't want Disassembled Wanda and I wanted more genuine mentor Agatha.
    Yup, but we got what we got. Unfortunately, Wanda even in the comics seems more defined by her worst ever storyline, and that has carried over to her screen version. (Something she shares with other characters like Hank Pym, infamous for and handicapped by his worst moment.)

    I would have liked a more accurate Agatha because A) movies hate casting older women and I'd like to see someone like Maggie Smith or Diana Rigg playing Agatha, B) we might get to see son, Nicholas Scratch, or her grandkids, Salem's Seven, in the MCU, and C) I love me some Ebony, and would enjoy seeing a little black cat familiar turn into a giant magical panther and startle some fool who picks on a 'harmless old lady and her kitty.'

  12. #11907
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    We can agree that both of them suffered from writing that made them worse than they should have been, but Agatha can't compare to Wanda for being screwed over, especially since this show will probably give Agatha some redemption while Wanda remains "dead" until some movie chooses to bring her back.

    That said I think it worked in WandaVision that Agatha wasn't really a villain and didn't do anything overtly evil. It was a story about Wanda learning to let go of her selfish needs and stop letting her grief hurt other people, so Agatha guided her to that by being brutally honest with Wanda. She sort of had the affect of a villain but she was really not villainous at all and she was obviously right that it was dangerous for Wanda to possess so much power she didn't understand. And Monica, who constantly talked about empathy and kindness, was unable to help anyone while Agatha ended up saving both Westview and Wanda.
    Wanda was a villain in the show and Monica excused her villainy against Westview residents in the same show so Wanda being a villain in MoM wasnt much of a stretch.
    "Dedra Meero is not just a woman in a men’s world, but a fascist in a world of fascists.” - Denise Gough

  13. #11908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    Wanda was a villain in the show and Monica excused her villainy against Westview residents in the same show so Wanda being a villain in MoM wasnt much of a stretch.
    Monica didn’t excuse it, she just said Wanda made a huge sacrifice. Since the show portrayed Wanda’s children as unambiguously real (just not able to survive in a different environment) that was true.

    Wanda was the “villain” of the show, or at least grief was the villain, but obviously her behavior in MoM has nothing to do with her character, or they wouldn’t have based it all on a book that makes people act out of character (which was not set up in WandaVision, where Agatha had the book and was not acting like that).

    Anyway Strange’s line that Westview didn’t matter because Wanda did the right thing in the end is worse than Monica’s line. Everything in that movie was wrong.

  14. #11909
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Monica didn’t excuse it, she just said Wanda made a huge sacrifice. Since the show portrayed Wanda’s children as unambiguously real (just not able to survive in a different environment) that was true.

    Wanda was the “villain” of the show, or at least grief was the villain, but obviously her behavior in MoM has nothing to do with her character, or they wouldn’t have based it all on a book that makes people act out of character (which was not set up in WandaVision, where Agatha had the book and was not acting like that).

    Anyway Strange’s line that Westview didn’t matter because Wanda did the right thing in the end is worse than Monica’s line. Everything in that movie was wrong.
    I'll ALWAYS see her as a villain and the "grief" excuse for both characters will never wash for me and that's why both have become an mcu meme for excusing torture and taking hostage of ppl and then Wanda unknowingly ending up killing her mother/Maria in another universe The whole thing is too comical for me
    "Dedra Meero is not just a woman in a men’s world, but a fascist in a world of fascists.” - Denise Gough

  15. #11910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tofali View Post
    I'll ALWAYS see her as a villain and the "grief" excuse for both characters will never wash for me and that's why both have become an mcu meme for excusing torture and taking hostage of ppl and then Wanda unknowingly ending up killing her mother/Maria in another universe The whole thing is too comical for me
    Fine, but even people who hated Wanda from WandaVision were (or should have been) disappointed by Multiverse of Madness. Instead of WandaVision being the start of her villain arc, she became a villain because of a magic book that turns people evil (and which she had to read to understand her powers) and they even made a point of having Doctor Strange say Westview didn’t matter. If the magic book turns everyone evil (except Agatha for some reason) then it has nothing to do with who Wanda is as a character.

    They should just have made WandaVision her lowest point and started her redemption after.

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