Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

[CosmiComic]

I've seen a lot of moments of heroes fighting petty crime in recent stories, personally. I think it's more just that they're focusing on the more overt stuff that is easier to showcase/address.

I mean, even if you change the genre it would probably inevitably end up involving a fight with some villainous force and righting some injustice in my opinion unless the Superhero aspect took a complete backseat.

What kind of crimes, though? Because street levellers tend to portray it as guys robbing banks and stuff. Is that even really a thing anymore? There's a lot of crime out there but it's against minority groups not like how it is in the comics I've seen. But the whole 'crime-filled city needs masked vigilante' is starting to sound to me like the smart kind of propaganda used to justify extreme police actions and extrajudicial violence.

[CosmiComic]

They dealt with this stuff just a few months ago with F&tWS and the white collar root problem (politicians) was directly addressed. Sam and Bucky didn't beat those guys up, but Cap and Buck attacked them in the most brutal way you can attack a politician; with words said in front of a camera.

I'd have preferred a punch, myself, but public humiliation forcing a drastic change in policy is much more effective.



Then it isn't really copaganda is it? These are people operating outside the rule of law by default. They have no legitimate authority to throw around or hide behind, and the existence of costumed vigilantes is in and of itself proof against copaganda. If superheroes believed the cops and justice system worked, they wouldn't be vigilantes in the first place.

That's not my point. The point is it's like copaganda. Because it uses the whole 'crime is everywhere' to justify using excessive force against criminals. But we've seen in real life how individuals outside of the police use violence because they think crime is everywhere

And some people like that. Game of Thrones was brutal and violent. But it's a non-issue, a MCU western is going to be no more brutal and violent than what the pg13 rating will allow anyway.



Agreed. But Marvel has been dipping into other genres since the start and that does provide a degree of variety. This is just a genre you don't like.

It's not about whether I like it or not. It's about whether I think MCU + other genre really provides enough story diversity

[Ascended]

What kind of crimes, though? Because street levellers tend to portray it as guys robbing banks and stuff.

What comics are you reading? I only pull a few street level titles but I'm racking my memory and all I'm coming up with for villains are organized crime bosses, some of whom are mobsters but many of whom are either "legitimate" businessmen or politicians. There's been some human trafficking in a few arcs/issues too. I fell behind with Flash but last time I saw the Rogues they were robbing museums and R&D think tanks, not banks. And they're as close to "classic" supervillain crime as I can recall seeing lately.

I've seen some throwaway, "requisite action scene" stuff with runaway cars, muggings, drug or gun deals gone wrong.....I think Superman saved some protesters or refugees recently, though he's not street level.

But like I said, I haven't had a lot of street level books on my pull lately. Maybe you're just reading the wrong comics?

[CosmiComic]

What comics are you reading? I only pull a few street level titles but I'm racking my memory and all I'm coming up with for villains are organized crime bosses, some of whom are mobsters but many of whom are either "legitimate" businessmen or politicians. There's been some human trafficking in a few arcs/issues too. I fell behind with Flash but last time I saw the Rogues they were robbing museums and R&D think tanks, not banks. And they're as close to "classic" supervillain crime as I can recall seeing lately.

I've seen some throwaway, "requisite action scene" stuff with runaway cars, muggings, drug or gun deals gone wrong.....I think Superman saved some protesters or refugees recently, though he's not street level.

But like I said, I haven't had a lot of street level books on my pull lately. Maybe you're just reading the wrong comics?

Maybe I am reading the wrong comics. I'm talking more about the random street criminals guys like Spider-Man and Batman beat up intermittently, rather than the big villains like Joker. But even at that, how many bank robbers and such does a city have that a guy with a costume needs to show up and beat them up? Or if so, is it the kind of crime that's actually prevalent in real society? A lot of recent events in news have me thinking about whether thinking urban areas need vigilantism contributes to a negative portrayal of them

Aside from that bring this up because I've seen comments saying they want something new in terms of storytelling in the MCU, yet also wanting more street level crime fighting. That's the most cliche superhero type story around tbh. If we want new kinds of stories then I don't think reevaluating vigilantism is a bad idea. On the contrary it could provide something actually new

[John Venus]

Yeah, exactly. Friggin *Ant-Man* is jumping through realities and timelines....and he's the "small scale" guy?

Lets not get carried away. His first movie was about him trying to steal Pym Particles from Hank's company. The second movie was about rescuing Janet from the Quantum Realm.

We don't know how Kang will factor into Ant-Man 3 but given Scott's role in helping to save the universe in Endgame through time travel, Kang's appearance feels appropriate plus I think it's mostly set up so Kang can be a greater threat in future movies and shows.

[inisideguy]

I am not really clear on the debate here. Marvel characters all of them with maybe the exception of Daredevil, were jumping between street level and massive world ending events. Since like 1961.

[Albert1981]

I am not really clear on the debate here. Marvel characters all of them with maybe the exception of Daredevil, were jumping between street level and massive world ending events. Since like 1961.

I agree with your opinion about Logan. I don't think it would make sense for him to be "aware" of the events of the past MCU phases because being the good dude that he is, I would like to think he would have helped the Avengers and the Guardians of the Galaxy out. So put him in a lab without his memories. In regards to having street level and global threats exist at the same time in the Marvel Universe, that kind of thing has happened for decades in the COMIC BOOKS. I don't remember a live-action CINEMATIC UNIVERSE integrating the two. And I don't consider the Netflix stuff to be part of "Feige's MCU".

In regards to vigilantism in comics, I think that kind of thing started in the 1970s and carried over into the 1990s because violent crime in urban American cities exploded from the 1960s up until the 1990s. That's why films and shows featuring anti-heroes were really popular during the last couple of decades of the 20th century. There was just a reaction against criminal violence in cities because people felt like law enforcement weren't keeping folks safe. I also think that's why Marvel vigilante characters like Daredevil and Punisher became extremely popular.

[inisideguy]

I agree with your opinion about Logan. I don't think it would make sense for him to be "aware" of the events of the past MCU phases because being the good dude that he is, I would like to think he would have helped the Avengers and the Guardians of the Galaxy out. So put him in a lab without his memories. In regards to having street level and global threats exist at the same time in the Marvel Universe, that kind of thing has happened for decades in the COMIC BOOKS. I don't remember a live-action CINEMATIC UNIVERSE integrating the two. And I don't consider the Netflix stuff to be part of "Feige's MCU".

In regards to vigilantism in comics, I think that kind of thing started in the 1970s and carried over into the 1990s because violent crime in urban American exploded from the 1960s up until the 1990s. That's why films and shows featuring anti-heroes were really popular during the last couple of decades of the 20th century. There was just a reaction against criminal violence in cities because people felt like law enforcement weren't keeping folks safe. I also think that's why Marvel vigilante characters like Daredevil and Punisher became extremely popular.

I don't know man. Spier-man and Daredevil were beating up street level guys since day 1. They were vigilantes. Heck J. Jameson has been calling Spiderman that for 60 years. Thats literally part of his character. Now if you are talking punisher stuff ok. But Both Spidey and Daredevil have been branded vigilantes and beat up regular crooks and hanging them upside down since the beginning.

And Im not clear what you mean by a cinematic universe. Like what other comics Cinematic Universe have we had before this?

[Albert1981]

I don't know man. Spier-man and Daredevil were beating up street level guys since day 1. They were vigilantes. Heck J. Jameson has been calling Spiderman that for 60 years. Thats literally part of his character. Now if you are talking punisher stuff ok. But Both Spidey and Daredevil have been branded vigilantes and beat up regular crooks and hanging them upside down since the beginning.

And Im not clear what you mean by a cinematic universe. Like what other comics Cinematic Universe have we had before this?

Yeah, dudes like Batman, Spider-Man and Daredevil have been doing the vigilante thing for a while. But I "vaguely" recall in the 2003 Daredevil movie (it's been a LONG time since I saw it, or should I say parts of it), Matt literally split a dude in half on the railway tracks. I think that guy was a sexual predator, but I don't remember DD doing that in the comic books (maybe I haven't read enough of them). Did Batman, Spider-Man and Daredevil MURDER anybody after they surrendered in the last forty years in the comics?

What I meant by cinematic universe is that the in MY life, I've never seen a superhero go take part in fights against alien monsters (as well as engage in space and time travel), and then deal with lowlife thugs in the same universe on screen (EXCEPT Clint did take part in some violence against some Yakuza members at the beginning in Endgame but I consider the Yakuza to be a MAJOR transnational international crime syndicate, not some local gangsters). Maybe the CW DC stuff did it, but I never watched those shows.

[inisideguy]

Yeah, dudes like Batman, Spider-Man and Daredevil have been doing the vigilante thing for a while. But I "vaguely" recall in the 2003 Daredevil movie (it's been a LONG time since I saw it, or should I say parts of it), Matt literally split a dude in half on the railway tracks. I think that guy was a sexual predator, but I don't remember DD doing that in the comic books (maybe I haven't read enough of them). Did Batman, Spider-Man and Daredevil MURDER anybody after they surrendered in the last forty years in the comics?

What I meant by cinematic universe is that the in MY life, I've never seen a superhero go take part in fights against alien monsters (as well as engage in space and time travel), and then deal with lowlife thugs in the same universe on screen (EXCEPT Clint did take part in some violence against some Yakuza members at the beginning in Endgame but I consider the Yakuza to be a MAJOR transnational international crime syndicate, not some local gangsters). Maybe the CW DC stuff did it, but I never watched those shows.

If you are going to have Gods from Asgard interact with Spider-man or Hawkeye everyone is going to be involved in world events. The only way you could avoid that is, separate the universes. And have self contained stories like Sony did with Spider-man in the first movies. But if you have Black widow on the avengers, the avengers deal with huge events. And thats the way its been since she has been on the Avengers since 1966 or whenever she first appeared. She then goes off in solo stories and deals with spy/ street level stuff. I don't know about the 2003 Daredevil. But no he wasn't written like that initially. But he was still a vigilante. By definition anyone who is beating up criminals outside of the law is a vigilante.


I mean with spider-man it was literally a core of his character arc since the start. The cops were always after him. J. Jameson was always ranting about him and other costumed heroes.

[Frontier]

What kind of crimes, though? Because street levellers tend to portray it as guys robbing banks and stuff. Is that even really a thing anymore? There's a lot of crime out there but it's against minority groups not like how it is in the comics I've seen. But the whole 'crime-filled city needs masked vigilante' is starting to sound to me like the smart kind of propaganda used to justify extreme police actions and extrajudicial violence.

I mean, I'm pretty sure people still rob banks. And I've read comics that deal with violence against minorities too.

I just don't see how it's propaganda more than just a convention of the genre. I mean, if you have an inherent problem with the Superhero genre to that extent, fine, but it's how it is.

Lets not get carried away. His first movie was about him trying to steal Pym Particles from Hank's company. The second movie was about rescuing Janet from the Quantum Realm.

We don't know how Kang will factor into Ant-Man 3 but given Scott's role in helping to save the universe in Endgame through time travel, Kang's appearance feels appropriate plus I think it's mostly set up so Kang can be a greater threat in future movies and shows.

Yeah, Scott and co. barely beat one Kang Variant and there will probably be an even worse one that comes after him. That's why HWR was so worried.

[Vic Vega]

Thing is Marvel Comics have done Westerns, Sword and Sorcery/Fantasy, Horror, Romance and for about 5 seconds in the early Aughts Slice Of Life.

They could conceivably o stuff from nearly any genre, tho I think they are weakest in sci fi ironically enough.

Once you discount any superhero themed and/or related sci fi property Marvel has very little on offer.

[Albert1981]

If you are going to have Gods from Asgard interact with Spider-man or Hawkeye everyone is going to be involved in world events. The only way you could avoid that is, separate the universes. And have self contained stories like Sony did with Spider-man in the first movies. But if you have Black widow on the avengers, the avengers deal with huge events. And thats the way its been since she has been on the Avengers since 1966 or whenever she first appeared. She then goes off in solo stories and deals with spy/ street level stuff. I don't know about the 2003 Daredevil. But no he wasn't written like that initially. But he was still a vigilante. By definition anyone who is beating up criminals outside of the law is a vigilante.


I mean with spider-man it was literally a core of his character arc since the start. The cops were always after him. J. Jameson was always ranting about him and other costumed heroes.

Good points. We'll see how Marvel Studios balances the genres starting tomorrow with Hawkeye.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Good points. We'll see how Marvel Studios balances the genres starting tomorrow with Hawkeye.

Hawkeye is easy to balance because he's a regular human at the end of the day. This isn't DBZ where he's gonna level up. A gang with machine guns is still a threat to him.

[Hypestyle]

Why westerns? It seems like a limited genre

I would say that Marvel could adapt some of the more contemporary Western stories. One comes to mind from John Ostrander (writer). Blaze of Glory and Apache Skies. It was kind of revisionist take on the stock characters that Timely/Marvel had for many years.

I think it could be a traditional western, but Marvel could absolutely incorporate some kind of powered threat, magic, monster, Asgardian tech, something.

https://www.comicsxf.com/2020/07/30/...i-fi%20setting.