Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

[Android 17]

Two episodes in and What If? season 2 is kinda blah.

The first episode with Nebula and the Blade Runner odes was dull and the Quill/Ego episode was mid.

[Ascended]

You could be be right about the casting being easy. But if the recast is so easy to do, then why rebrand the movie from Kang Dinasty to Avengers 5?

Just because it might be easy doesn't mean it's the direction Marvel is going in. As you say, there's more at play here than just Majors and if they intend to drop the entire multiverse or swap out Kang for another villain then recasting is pointless. It's also possible they're changing the name of Kang Dynasty just to put distance between them and Majors, but otherwise don't intend on changing the plot of the story. Kang could still be the big villain of Avengers 5 without his name being the title y'know? It's the kind of halfassed thing I expect from Hollywood, if not Marvel Studios specifically.

Honestly , I am starting to think than Marvel is using this crisis to make a total re-writing of their plans and change the focus from the multiverse concept to someting else

Maybe. Marvel's rarely done that sort of thing before. They'll adjust a particular movie or character (like we saw with Ragnarok) but I can't recall them changing their core, big-picture plans before. Of course, they're struggling more than usual right now and may think the solution requires a deeper, bigger change. I feel like things were pretty rough in phase 2 and they didn't make any big changes then, so I dunno if they would now...depends on if the Studio thinks things are as bad as the media wants us to think they are (which they don't seem to be, despite the internet's talking heads claiming the sky is falling).

Seems like there's three options. 1. recast Kang and change nothing else. 2. drop Kang and use someone else as the big bad of the multiverse saga, like Doom or the Beyonder. 3. drop the multiverse saga entirely and do....something else.

I don't see option 3 being that viable. Possible, but I dunno if I'd bet on it. There's too many wheels turning, I think, to totally derail the entire Saga at the halfway point. I'm sure that with a fast and dirty slew of rewrites and reshoots, they could do it (especially with next year having fewer films than usual, that might give them the wiggle room they need) and rush into whatever the next Saga is supposed to be, but I dunno if it'd be that satisfying for audiences and that's gotta be a concern for Fiege. Bailing on the current stuff doesn't help if the replacement films are too rushed to be any good.

Option 1 seems the easiest solution, but Marvel might think they need a bigger change. Majors wasn't the problem (on screen) so recasting him doesn't change the equation that much. If Fiege just does what he's been doing but replaces Majors as Kang all the same problems remain, and while in the past Marvel has just adjusted films on a 'as they come' basis, that might not be enough right now.

Option 2 feels like, maybe, a solid middle ground. Switching Kang out for another villain might get the outlets talking, the announcement might get fans interested in the new face (especially if it's someone like Doom) and generate some hype. Treating Kang as a bait-and-switch Big Bad (you thought it was Kang? Oh silly fan, the *real* Big Bad is even bigger and badder!) could give the multiverse saga a shot in the arm without forcing Fiege to totally change his plans and timetable. And it wouldn't be that hard to inject a different villain into the Big Bad role.

Who knows? Time will tell, and I suspect we probably won't have to wait too long to get an announcement. I think Marvel will want to have some control over the rumor mill and let fans know that they're dealing with their problems and making the necessary changes (beyond just Majors).

[Ascended]

Now that season 2 of What If is over, what are everyone's thoughts? Myself, I loved it. The Captain Cater/Hydra Stomper episode was my favorite, with some of the best fight scenes the MCU has ever given us and a surprisingly strong emotional core. The Kahhori episode was excellent and very enjoyable (in no small part thanks to my wife being Native, we're always happy to see the cultures treated well). The '80's Avengers' episode with Peter Quill was a lot of fun, and I totally adored the cyberpunk/pulp flavor of Nebula joining the Nova Corps.

Wasn't crazy impressed with the 'Hela and the 10 Rings' episode but it was still good. As was the episode with Tony on Sakaar and the Happy Hogan/xmas episode. All fun, if not mind blowing. Not stuff I'm gonna watch multiple times, but still good.

Finale was fun, but not as good as season 1 where we got to see many of the season's characters assemble. Still, watching Carter and Kahhori team up was solid entertainment and I'm not unhappy with it.

Damned good season, love that it dropped daily. Super excited that season 3 is already in production even if the show has apparently lost its head writer.

Hoping to see the Watcher in live action sometime soon, and I wouldn't mind Kahhori making the transition either. I used to joke about the MCU creating original characters, and I wish they had done this a couple years ago when the MCU enjoyed blanket support, but from what I hear fans liked Kahhori anyway and I'm hopeful we'll see more of her beyond this one show.

[Refrax5]

The MCU Van Dyne women have been characterized as uber capable in the superhero arena. Janet beat Kang the first time around and trapped him in the Quantum realm. Hope's line in previous movies about "If *I* had been involved, you wouldn't have gotten caught" is meant to underscore how much of a natural she is in the tactical arena despite her Father's reluctance to train her to enter the family business. Wasp very well might end up being the leader of the new Avengers team.

That's true. Kang getting defeated was the result of a series of unexpected things happening from a rebel uprising to Modok betraying him and knocking down his force field to being mauled by gigantic super-ants, to getting that device triggered that killed (?) him. Even so, they barely beat him. Even after getting mangled by the ants, he still beat the hell out of Scott and would have killed him had Hope not intervened at the last second.

[Refrax5]

After two failed projects Hulk related? Hardly. Marvel only use Hulk as a secondary character in the movies.



You could be be right about the casting being easy. But if the recast is so easy to do, then why rebrand the movie from Kang Dinasty to Avengers 5?

Honestly , I am starting to think than Marvel is using this crisis to make a total re-writing of their plans and change the focus from the multiverse concept to someting else. Replacing Kang is going to be the excuse to drop the whole multiverse narrative to change to other thing. Because honestly, the story is so disperse than the public is confuse about it and try to make the people to see their series didn't worked. Whatever is happening behind scenes, is undoubtly using the whole Kang situation as an inflextion point to change the direction of the ship.

It's hard to imagine that since the movies that deal the most directly with the multiverse (No Way Home, Dr. Strange) were the biggest hits of Phase 4 and I expect Deadpool 3 to do the same. Do you think stuff like Jackman returning as Wolverine and Maguire's Spider-Man coming back is something they're going to abandon right now? Those things seem like safer bets than anything else right now.

[Frontier]

Now that season 2 of What If is over, what are everyone's thoughts? Myself, I loved it. The Captain Cater/Hydra Stomper episode was my favorite, with some of the best fight scenes the MCU has ever given us and a surprisingly strong emotional core. The Kahhori episode was excellent and very enjoyable (in no small part thanks to my wife being Native, we're always happy to see the cultures treated well). The '80's Avengers' episode with Peter Quill was a lot of fun, and I totally adored the cyberpunk/pulp flavor of Nebula joining the Nova Corps.

Wasn't crazy impressed with the 'Hela and the 10 Rings' episode but it was still good. As was the episode with Tony on Sakaar and the Happy Hogan/xmas episode. All fun, if not mind blowing. Not stuff I'm gonna watch multiple times, but still good.

Finale was fun, but not as good as season 1 where we got to see many of the season's characters assemble. Still, watching Carter and Kahhori team up was solid entertainment and I'm not unhappy with it.

Damned good season, love that it dropped daily. Super excited that season 3 is already in production even if the show has apparently lost its head writer.

Hoping to see the Watcher in live action sometime soon, and I wouldn't mind Kahhori making the transition either. I used to joke about the MCU creating original characters, and I wish they had done this a couple years ago when the MCU enjoyed blanket support, but from what I hear fans liked Kahhori anyway and I'm hopeful we'll see more of her beyond this one show.

I feel like this season got a little over-indulgent with Peggy, the happy endings, the humor, the rapid pace of it's stories, etc.

Was anyone really asking for a Hela redemption story? I thought her appeal was not only Cate Blanchett but her being one of the few out-and-out female villains in the MCU and suddenly it's all the fault of her daddy issues and she could secretly be an even greater force for good if she'd just gone through a training arc. Although the idea of Hela and the Mandarin hooking up was kind of hilarious.

I'm convinced now that Melina should've been the villain of the Black Widow movie.

I was really disappointed by the 1602 episode. They basically just handwaved away stuff so as to not actually have to do near the effort Neil Gaiman put into it to actually make 1602 work as well as it did and made it more about Peggy (again).

I feel like if they did port Kahhori to the comics they'd have to nerf her hard. I think she made a strong debut but I'm curious what more you can do with her past that.

That's true. Kang getting defeated was the result of a series of unexpected things happening from a rebel uprising to Modok betraying him and knocking down his force field to being mauled by gigantic super-ants, to getting that device triggered that killed (?) him. Even so, they barely beat him. Even after getting mangled by the ants, he still beat the hell out of Scott and would have killed him had Hope not intervened at the last second.

On paper this makes sense yet I think the execution of the overall movie worked against it and made Kang come off more underwhelming compared to how he could have been portrayed.

[Maestro 216]

Kang was hyped like Thanos and people wanted a better introduction with a better film.

[Ascended]

I feel like this season got a little over-indulgent with Peggy, the happy endings, the humor, the rapid pace of it's stories, etc.

I don't disagree. I was reading an interview where the head writer was talking about putting the show together through covid, the election, etc., and apparently with the world in such a bad spot they wanted happy endings. I get it. Dunno if it'll age well, but I get it.

I thought they went a little hard with Peggy too. I wanted and expected another Captain Carter episode, no way they set up the Winter Steve at the end of season 1 without coming back to that, and I figured she'd be involved in the finale, but I didn't need her in the 1602 episode.

Was anyone really asking for a Hela redemption story?

No, and it was one of my least favorite episodes of the season. Interesting, I suppose, but I didn't need heroic 'I've learned the power of friendship and love!' Hela.

I'm convinced now that Melina should've been the villain of the Black Widow movie.

There's been no doubt in my mind about that since the movie came out.

I was really disappointed by the 1602 episode.

I didn't expect the show to match the brilliance of Gaiman, but yeah. I wouldn't call it bad or anything, but it could and should have been a lot more than it was.

I feel like if they did port Kahhori to the comics they'd have to nerf her hard. I think she made a strong debut but I'm curious what more you can do with her past that.

I think she'd have better luck moving into the mainstream live-action MCU first. Comics have tried before to port in new characters from other formats and it's usually a struggle that ends in disappointment (a few exceptions aside). Put Kahhori in some movies and shows alongside the other actors, build up her profile with an appearance in Avengers 5 or something, and maybe she could transition to comics from there.

I don't think she's too powerful though. Super speed is always a huge advantage, but she's not excessively durable (got taken out by a cannonball) and her other Matrix-style powers don't seem too over the top. It's a robust powerset for sure, but she doesn't come across (to me) as being more powerful than the MCU heavy hitters, and is definitely weaker than some, like Carol, Strange, and (of course) Wanda.

On paper this makes sense yet I think the execution of the overall movie worked against it and made Kang come off more underwhelming compared to how he could have been portrayed.

I've said from the start that Kang's biggest problem isn't the movie but the expectations we brought with us. It took a Herculean effort to stop him in Quantumania, yet the man had almost no resources to his name. He was at his lowest and it still took everything the quantum realm had to stop him. That's pretty scary, but we all know who and what Kang is and expect more from him under 'usual' circumstances.

If his armor had been broken and ruined, if he had *looked* like he was running on E with scant resources to his name, it might've gone over better and people might be saying 'thank god Scott didn't fight him at full power!' instead of needing the reminder that Kang wasn't anywhere near full power at all.

[Frontier]

I don't disagree. I was reading an interview where the head writer was talking about putting the show together through covid, the election, etc., and apparently with the world in such a bad spot they wanted happy endings. I get it. Dunno if it'll age well, but I get it.

I thought they went a little hard with Peggy too. I wanted and expected another Captain Carter episode, no way they set up the Winter Steve at the end of season 1 without coming back to that, and I figured she'd be involved in the finale, but I didn't need her in the 1602 episode.

I think especially the Nebula episode would've benefitted better from a more somber ending, what with the influences. And not, y'know, conveniently killing Ronan.

And I don't think we needed a "Captain Carter takes down Strange Supreme" finale either. Just felt like they had both her and Stephen circling around their own character developments and hung up over the same people. Strange Supreme meeting Clea would've been more interesting than trying to revive Christine for the umpteenth time.

No, and it was one of my least favorite episodes of the season. Interesting, I suppose, but I didn't need heroic 'I've learned the power of friendship and love!' Hela.

Same. It felt too much like "we love this character so much we're going to turn her into a good guy!" like a lot of popular female villains.

There's been no doubt in my mind about that since the movie came out.

I get what the message behind Dreykov was but Melina in five minutes was more interesting and effective than he was in an entire movie (not that he was even in the movie that much).

I didn't expect the show to match the brilliance of Gaiman, but yeah. I wouldn't call it bad or anything, but it could and should have been a lot more than it was.

I think it was definitely a victim of What If being more often than not an excuse plot show.

I think she'd have better luck moving into the mainstream live-action MCU first. Comics have tried before to port in new characters from other formats and it's usually a struggle that ends in disappointment (a few exceptions aside). Put Kahhori in some movies and shows alongside the other actors, build up her profile with an appearance in Avengers 5 or something, and maybe she could transition to comics from there.

I don't think she's too powerful though. Super speed is always a huge advantage, but she's not excessively durable (got taken out by a cannonball) and her other Matrix-style powers don't seem too over the top. It's a robust powerset for sure, but she doesn't come across (to me) as being more powerful than the MCU heavy hitters, and is definitely weaker than some, like Carol, Strange, and (of course) Wanda.

She's likely going to be in Secret Wars, I imagine.

She can definitely be overwhelmed but her shields seem pretty durable and she has super speed, telekinesis, blasts, and teleportation on top of that. I think it's telling that she only really struggled against the heavy hitters.

[marhawkman]

No, and it was one of my least favorite episodes of the season. Interesting, I suppose, but I didn't need heroic 'I've learned the power of friendship and love!' Hela.

Heroic, or at least neutral Hela is easy. Hela has a vital place in the cosmic order. Most of the time she does her job well. You don't need some nonsense about having a change of heart...

[charliehustle415]

I feel like this season got a little over-indulgent with Peggy, the happy endings, the humor, the rapid pace of it's stories, etc.

Was anyone really asking for a Hela redemption story? I thought her appeal was not only Cate Blanchett but her being one of the few out-and-out female villains in the MCU and suddenly it's all the fault of her daddy issues and she could secretly be an even greater force for good if she'd just gone through a training arc. Although the idea of Hela and the Mandarin hooking up was kind of hilarious.

I'm convinced now that Melina should've been the villain of the Black Widow movie.

I was really disappointed by the 1602 episode. They basically just handwaved away stuff so as to not actually have to do near the effort Neil Gaiman put into it to actually make 1602 work as well as it did and made it more about Peggy (again).

I feel like if they did port Kahhori to the comics they'd have to nerf her hard. I think she made a strong debut but I'm curious what more you can do with her past that.

On paper this makes sense yet I think the execution of the overall movie worked against it and made Kang come off more underwhelming compared to how he could have been portrayed.

yeah the show is basically What If Peggy was the most important character in the MCU?

Marvel can't get away from falling into the same trap that Star Wars fell into - focus on a handful of characters as opposed to explore the large interesting universe.

What If is supposed to be the out there MCU stories that we can't have in live action, instead it has become the Peggy and Strange Supreme show

[Ascended]

Just felt like they had both her and Stephen circling around their own character developments and hung up over the same people. Strange Supreme meeting Clea would've been more interesting than trying to revive Christine for the umpteenth time.

I think it works because of the contrast; they're both cycling through the same issue but Strange succumbing to it helps highlight Carter's refusal to break. I agree it was a boring and predictable way to handle Strange though. Dude has shown a consistent and remarkable ability to make poor choices and by all accounts learned his lesson after killing his universe. He could and should have moved on to new bad ideas.

So I agree it wasn't a great path, but I think they walked it well, under the circumstances. Still not as good a finale as season 1 though. Really missed seeing all the characters get together, and Ultro-Vision made for a better foe than Strange forgetting his character development.

Same. It felt too much like "we love this character so much we're going to turn her into a good guy!" like a lot of popular female villains.

Yup. Half the female population of Gotham City say hi. I wonder why entertainment does that so often?

I get what the message behind Dreykov was but Melina in five minutes was more interesting and effective than he was in an entire movie (not that he was even in the movie that much).

I really enjoyed the movie despite its weak ass villains (I can say that about most of the MCU honestly), but you'd have to be blind, deaf, and dumb not to get the message behind Dreykov. Melina was always the superior character. Hell, Dreykov wasn't even a character, he was just a vague, poorly defined stand-in for the patriarchy. Which could have worked, but they didn't even bother to give him goals or consistent motivations/methods. He wasn't a character, he wasn't even a statement, he was just a slogan.

She's likely going to be in Secret Wars, I imagine.

I hope so. Somewhere, anyway. I like the character and want to see if they can do anything with her. I love the "Wakanda for Native Americans" they created with her. Did that planet ever get a name? I feel like, with some effort and luck, you could build a really compelling mythos out of this character. But like I said, my wife is Native so we're biased.

She can definitely be overwhelmed but her shields seem pretty durable and she has super speed, telekinesis, blasts, and teleportation on top of that. I think it's telling that she only really struggled against the heavy hitters

What else would you expect though? She's an Infinity Stone powered heavy hitter. None of those Stone-powered guys (Carol, Wanda, Vision) are lightweights. Wouldn't make sense for someone powered by the Tesseract to have a hard time fighting some mid-tier dude like, I dunno, Luke Cage or someone.

Heroic, or at least neutral Hela is easy. Hela has a vital place in the cosmic order. Most of the time she does her job well. You don't need some nonsense about having a change of heart...

Not sure how I feel about Wenwu being so close to the heart of that change either. I got nothing against a good love story but I don't like the 'he saved me from myself!' troupe, especially when it's applied to a woman like Hela.

[Frontier]

I think it works because of the contrast; they're both cycling through the same issue but Strange succumbing to it helps highlight Carter's refusal to break. I agree it was a boring and predictable way to handle Strange though. Dude has shown a consistent and remarkable ability to make poor choices and by all accounts learned his lesson after killing his universe. He could and should have moved on to new bad ideas.

So I agree it wasn't a great path, but I think they walked it well, under the circumstances. Still not as good a finale as season 1 though. Really missed seeing all the characters get together, and Ultro-Vision made for a better foe than Strange forgetting his character development.

I think to me it just felt like going around in circles on stuff that I felt was already addressed in season 1, especially in Strange Supreme's case. All because we needed some kind of "final boss" for an anthology show.

I don't need to be seeing Peggy pinning for Steve in season 3.

Yup. Half the female population of Gotham City say hi. I wonder why entertainment does that so often?

To make them more conventional as protagonists? An inability to accept female characters as being genuinely bad/evil?

I really enjoyed the movie despite its weak ass villains (I can say that about most of the MCU honestly), but you'd have to be blind, deaf, and dumb not to get the message behind Dreykov. Melina was always the superior character. Hell, Dreykov wasn't even a character, he was just a vague, poorly defined stand-in for the patriarchy. Which could have worked, but they didn't even bother to give him goals or consistent motivations/methods. He wasn't a character, he wasn't even a statement, he was just a slogan.

Don't forget about the bad Russian accent. Oh, and some weird version of Taskmaster was there too I guess.

I hope so. Somewhere, anyway. I like the character and want to see if they can do anything with her. I love the "Wakanda for Native Americans" they created with her. Did that planet ever get a name? I feel like, with some effort and luck, you could build a really compelling mythos out of this character. But like I said, my wife is Native so we're biased.

Wakanda is probably the one superpower that could hold their own against them.

What else would you expect though? She's an Infinity Stone powered heavy hitter. None of those Stone-powered guys (Carol, Wanda, Vision) are lightweights. Wouldn't make sense for someone powered by the Tesseract to have a hard time fighting some mid-tier dude like, I dunno, Luke Cage or someone.

I get that. I mean, they even find ways to nerf the characters you talk about for that very reason.

Not sure how I feel about Wenwu being so close to the heart of that change either. I got nothing against a good love story but I don't like the 'he saved me from myself!' troupe, especially when it's applied to a woman like Hela.

This kind of reminds me of how the Shang-Chi movie kind of sidetracked the whole "Wenwu is the leader of a criminal/terrorist organization" to focus on him trying to get back together with his wife as the main conflict. As if Shang needed a better excuse to stop his dad that didn't paint him as an explicit bad guy.

[Ascended]

I think to me it just felt like going around in circles on stuff that I felt was already addressed in season 1, especially in Strange Supreme's case

Most definitely in Strange's case. Carter, at least, has the excuse of never getting over Steve in the first place and outside forces keep throwing him in her path, as opposed to Strange whose refusal to move on is entirely internal (and at odds with his arc from last season). And I absolutely want to see Carter's story in season 3. I don't want her to showcase as much as she did here, but she's been the poster child for What If since it began and I wanna see the arc resolve. But I just need, like, one Carter-focused episode to wrap up her story and then perhaps some kind of epilogue/involvement in the finale, if they do another 'assemble' thing.

Don't forget about the bad Russian accent. Oh, and some weird version of Taskmaster was there too I guess.

Eh, I never totally forgave ScarJo for not doing an accent for Nat, so I'm not gonna hate too much on a bad one. At least an attempt was made, I guess? Taskmaster, that's a related but different pile of problems I think. Was not happy with how they handled that situation at all. I'd have been fine with the changes they made to the character if there had been a damn personality behind it. I get what they were saying there, but I needed a entertaining Taskmaster more than I needed another heavy handed socio-political statement. Even though I agree with what they were saying, they were too blunt saying it to make it fun.

Wakanda is probably the one superpower that could hold their own against them.

New Asgard and Talokan could likely hold their own too. Talokan at the very least, I'm a little unsure of just how battle-ready the Asgardians are these days.

Even though everybody seems to have the same powerset on KahhoriWorld, nobody seems to have as much raw power as she does. It's hard to judge because we only see these guys fighting old school muskets and cannons, but I get the feeling the majority of the Tesseract tribe are mid-tier in power level. And Strange Supreme had at least a few of them captured, which hints at them not being able to swing with the big guns. Really badass powerset, but seemingly mid-tier. Of course, if there's thousands of these guys then that's enough to overrun just about any world we've seen in the MCU, but I got the feeling there were only dozens, or at most hundreds.

I get that. I mean, they even find ways to nerf the characters you talk about for that very reason.

Well you got me there. I suppose the MCU might make that a problem for themselves, but the comics usually handle high-end power levels better, so if Kahhori did transfer to the page it'd probably be fine.

This kind of reminds me of how the Shang-Chi movie kind of sidetracked the whole "Wenwu is the leader of a criminal/terrorist organization" to focus on him trying to get back together with his wife as the main conflict. As if Shang needed a better excuse to stop his dad that didn't paint him as an explicit bad guy.

I feel like they realized they had written themselves into a corner halfway through and had to switch gears to keep the emotional arcs progressing.

[Android 17]

Now that season 2 of What If is over, what are everyone's thoughts? Myself, I loved it. The Captain Cater/Hydra Stomper episode was my favorite, with some of the best fight scenes the MCU has ever given us and a surprisingly strong emotional core. The Kahhori episode was excellent and very enjoyable (in no small part thanks to my wife being Native, we're always happy to see the cultures treated well). The '80's Avengers' episode with Peter Quill was a lot of fun, and I totally adored the cyberpunk/pulp flavor of Nebula joining the Nova Corps.

Wasn't crazy impressed with the 'Hela and the 10 Rings' episode but it was still good. As was the episode with Tony on Sakaar and the Happy Hogan/xmas episode. All fun, if not mind blowing. Not stuff I'm gonna watch multiple times, but still good.

Finale was fun, but not as good as season 1 where we got to see many of the season's characters assemble. Still, watching Carter and Kahhori team up was solid entertainment and I'm not unhappy with it.

Damned good season, love that it dropped daily. Super excited that season 3 is already in production even if the show has apparently lost its head writer.

Hoping to see the Watcher in live action sometime soon, and I wouldn't mind Kahhori making the transition either. I used to joke about the MCU creating original characters, and I wish they had done this a couple years ago when the MCU enjoyed blanket support, but from what I hear fans liked Kahhori anyway and I'm hopeful we'll see more of her beyond this one show.

Overall, I thought it was just okay. But for sure the Kahhori episode, 1602 and the finale were the standouts to me. My only hope for Season 3 is that they just retire Strange Supreme and ease up on using Captain Carter all the time. They could stand to use the Eternals, give us a Scarlet Witch story, use Pietro and I think it'd be cool if they gave She-Hulk an episode.