Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

[Frontier]

A rogues gallery transplant is a bigger change than just changing who initially led the villain down the path of evil.

And while Ultron is an Avengers villain, he's most closely connected to Hank and Jan. Taking them out of the equation was an actual detrimental change IMO, unlike making Vulture hate Tony Stark

I think both are equally big changes when you get right down to it and were detrimental to the respective heroes.

And again, why move so quickly past it? Think of it this way, if you suffer the loss of a family member or friend, you don't just wake up the day after the funeral, dust your hands off and say "well, that's that". Depending on the relationship with the person, it'll stick with you. Same with Peter/Tony. It was established as a mentor/mentee relationship from the getgo in CW. Plus Peter in CW and Homecoming is still learning how to grasp being a hero. The 3 scenes, again minimal. He was reminding Peter that he needed to be more without the suit than with it. Why, you ask? Because he's a high schooler still maturing both in personal life and as an Avenger. Did you know everything as a teen? Teens sometimes think they do, but they don't. So, did IM defeat Vulture? No, Peter accomplished it. So, Tony's presence didn't overshadow the character arc in Homecoming.

I'm not saying it didn't make sense in-universe, just that from a character perspective I felt it was just continuing a problematic trend for MCU Spider-Man. That's my feeling about the entire Peter/Tony relationship, which is why, to me, those three scenes felt far more than just minimal and came at the expense of peter's character.

He's a character that's all about figuring it out on his own and not needing the hand-me-downs or sage advice of an adult Superhero. I'm not saying he has to know everything but he doesn't need to learn stuff from Iron Man.

If you feel Tony didn't overshadow Peter's character arc, fine, but I felt like he was already too involved in that character arc to begin with.

Yeah, I don't really see the problem in one hero advising another one what to do, especially when the other is much younger.

It depends how its handled.

[CosmiComic]

I think both are equally big changes when you get right down to it and were detrimental to the respective heroes.

I don't agree. Totally changing which hero fights which villain is much more problematic than just changing which hero caused which villain.

I'm not saying it didn't make sense in-universe, just that from a character perspective I felt it was just continuing a problematic trend for MCU Spider-Man. That's my feeling about the entire Peter/Tony relationship, which is why, to me, those three scenes felt far more than just minimal and came at the expense of peter's character.

He's a character that's all about figuring it out on his own and not needing the hand-me-downs or sage advice of an adult Superhero. I'm not saying he has to know everything but he doesn't need to learn stuff from Iron Man.

If you feel Tony didn't overshadow Peter's character arc, fine, but I felt like he was already too involved in that character arc to begin with.

It depends how its handled.

True, but I think it was mostly handled well in the MCU. If one hero has already experience, using that to help another one out is a good idea IMO.

[Wiccan]

I don't agree. Totally changing which hero fights which villain is much more problematic than just changing which hero caused which villain.

I think you're ignoring the fact that it's not a matter of "We're introducing [villain character] in the MCU, who should fight him?". It's "We're doing [here solo movie], who should be the villain?". A villain's motivation being about another hero takes away focus from the main hero in their own movie, making the story partially about something else. The main character using someone else's villain... Well, on a movie setting it has no difference than if they were fighting their own villain from the comics.

Honestly, those two issues might sound similar on paper but in practice they're completely different and not related at all.

[Frontier]

I don't agree. Totally changing which hero fights which villain is much more problematic than just changing which hero caused which villain.

I mean, I think that's a pretty big deal because it connects another heroes villain to someone else rather than it just being their villain, but to each their own.

True, but I think it was mostly handled well in the MCU. If one hero has already experience, using that to help another one out is a good idea IMO.

I'm not arguing that in principle but in terms of execution and regarding the character of Spider-Man.

[CosmiComic]

I think you're ignoring the fact that it's not a matter of "We're introducing [villain character] in the MCU, who should fight him?". It's "We're doing [here solo movie], who should be the villain?". A villain's motivation being about another hero takes away focus from the main hero in their own movie, making the story partially about something else. The main character using someone else's villain... Well, on a movie setting it has no difference than if they were fighting their own villain from the comics.

Honestly, those two issues might sound similar on paper but in practice they're completely different and not related at all.

But Spider-Man still fought Vulture, and Mysterio. Vulture didn't even care about revenge on Stark, but he did try to go after Peter. This is like saying Zemo isn't a Captain America villain because he blamed all the Avengers for the destruction of Sokovia. Meanwhile Tony Stark and Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne never encountered their most prominent foes from the comics.

I mean, I think that's a pretty big deal because it connects another heroes villain to someone else rather than it just being their villain, but to each their own.

I guess we'll agree to disagree there.

I'm not arguing that in principle but in terms of execution and regarding the character of Spider-Man.

And I don't think it was as much of a problem in terms of execution regarding Spider-Man

[Wiccan]

But Spider-Man still fought Vulture, and Mysterio. Vulture didn't even care about revenge on Stark, but he did try to go after Peter. This is like saying Zemo isn't a Captain America villain because he blamed all the Avengers for the destruction of Sokovia. Meanwhile Tony Stark and Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne never encountered their most prominent foes from the comics.

My main point is that the first case ("They made Vulture and Mysterio's motivations all about Tony even though the movie's about Peter") and the second one ("Hank and Janet didn't get their main villains cause they were used for someone else") aren't really co-related like you seem to be arguing. Having problems with the former doesn't mean anything about the latter.

[CosmiComic]

My main point is that the first case ("They made Vulture and Mysterio's motivations all about Tony even though the movie's about Peter") and the second one ("Hank and Janet didn't get their main villains cause they were used for someone else") aren't really co-related like you seem to be arguing. Having problems with the former doesn't mean anything about the latter.

They're not necessarily correlated but I was using an example of a change I thought actually warranted this level of criticism. I feel like those changes to the other heroes actually were problematic unlike this one with Spider-Man

[Frontier]

And I don't think it was as much of a problem in terms of execution regarding Spider-Man

Agree to disagree there too .

[CosmiComic]

Agree to disagree there too .

Okay then. Of course, I don't think it was perfect, but in terms of problems I have with the MCU, I'd say that's lower on the list.

[Frontier]

Okay then. Of course, I don't think it was perfect, but in terms of problems I have with the MCU, I'd say that's lower on the list.

Well, as a Spider-Man fan it's pretty high up there for me, but I try not to let it get to me .

[CosmiComic]

Well, as a Spider-Man fan it's pretty high up there for me, but I try not to let it get to me .

Ok. I guess I've never been just a Spider-Man fan. I actually liked seeing all these other MCU heroes get attention outside of just the ones well known to non comic book readers. Especially since it wasn't just the standard secret identity crimefighter storyline. It's something I wish DC could get down, since I was actually more of a DC fan beforehand

[Witchfan]

Marvel director says any shows before ‘WandaVision’ aren’t MCU canon
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...BingNewsSearch

[CosmiComic]

Marvel director says any shows before ‘WandaVision’ aren’t MCU canon
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/techn...BingNewsSearch

This still probably won't settle anything in people's minds

[Rincewind]

Well, as a Spider-Man fan it's pretty high up there for me, but I try not to let it get to me .

As a Spider-Man fan, I prefer the MCU version. The presence of Tony Stark in the movies and influence on villains has never bothered me. I like seeing Peter as part of a larger world full of heroes.

[Frontier]

Ok. I guess I've never been just a Spider-Man fan. I actually liked seeing all these other MCU heroes get attention outside of just the ones well known to non comic book readers. Especially since it wasn't just the standard secret identity crimefighter storyline. It's something I wish DC could get down, since I was actually more of a DC fan beforehand

Hmm...I'm a big DC fan but not sure if I'd prefer something different from the standard.

As a Spider-Man fan, I prefer the MCU version. The presence of Tony Stark in the movies and influence on villains has never bothered me. I like seeing Peter as part of a larger world full of heroes.

There's not really much about the MCU version I prefer compared to other versions of Spidey, I even feel like the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon version of Peter stands on his own better within a shared universe, but to each their own.