Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

[John Venus]

Eh I think with Vulture it's less about Tony specifically and more about class warfare in general. Yes Tony funded Damage Control, or helped design it or whatever, but that's just narrative synergy at work; the real point was that the rich and powerful made a mess and then paid themselves to clean it up while the little guy got screwed. Tony was just the face of that story element, for obvious reasons.

With Mysterio, it was very much about Tony specifically, and the pain he had caused, both real and perceived.

When it comes to the villains, I think Tony was fulfilling a role that would have otherwise gone to someone like Norman Osborn but with the added ambiguity because Tony is supposed to be a superhero as well.

It would be refreshing if No Way Home's villain had nothing to do with Tony Stark.

[CosmiComic]

I'm not the biggest MCU Hawkeye fan but to say he doesn't have a personality or standout moments or character arcs in the MCU is patently false. Just because you didn't like what he got doesn't mean it wasn't there.

I already said "no personality" was too harsh. But I was basically saying he doesn't have enough despite being a recurring character in 4 movies so far. I'm not being literally exact

[Frontier]

Pietro seemed more inspired by SHIELD than Clint. As for Natasha, I have similar qualms about her, but at least I saw her develop connections with other heroes. Clint's development is too intermittent. I don't see a continuously development of his character.

I...didn't really see where SHIELD inspired Pietro at all? I think Clint and Natasha had good chemistry in their interactions with each other to boost the connection.

As far as his development, I think probably the most dramatic one was losing his family because out of all the heroes he was probably the most fully-formed before then.

He absolutely did break up the Avengers. He couldn't stand the world telling him he couldn't go and do whatever he wanted wherever he wanted. He had reasonable arguments in the beginning about not wanting be turned into a government strike force, but in the end he just wanted to do things as usual without any level of introspection. And in the end the mission he went on was a bust. Despite previously opposing SHIELD doing the same thing in CA:WS

I mean, the Avengers were probably going to continue with or without him, so I don't think that was the case.

I don't think he went rogue for the sake of going rogue but because he felt like that was the only way they could catch who framed Bucky because everyone else believed he was guilty. And, admittedly, they did catch Zemo, Zemo just also planned on that happening. WS is why he was so hesitant on letting the government control the heroes more.

And Hawkeye joining his side only shows the difference after the fact. Where was the build-up to it?

His time with the group in the end of Avengers and AoU?

[CosmiComic]

I...didn't really see where SHIELD inspired Pietro at all? I think Clint and Natasha had good chemistry in their interactions with each other to boost the connection.

As far as his development, I think probably the most dramatic one was losing his family because out of all the heroes he was probably the most fully-formed before then.

When Pietro saw the helicarriers, Cap mentioned this was what SHIELD was supposed to be like. He seemed impressed. Whereas I don't recall Clint inspiring him. Wanda, yeah, but not Pietro. Maybe I'm missing something

Clint is the most fully formed on paper, but on film the family just comes off as an accessory. In contrast, Scott showed his connection to Cassie on screen, so that was a lot more emotional to me than Clint's family disappearing.

I mean, the Avengers were probably going to continue with or without him, so I don't think that was the case.

I don't think he went rogue for the sake of going rogue but because he felt like that was the only way they could catch who framed Bucky because everyone else believed he was guilty. And, admittedly, they did catch Zemo, Zemo just also planned on that happening. WS is why he was so hesitant on letting the government control the heroes more.

[QUOTE=Frontier;5618775]They caught Zemo but would Zemo have done all that had Cap not been so willing to pursue him? And had they sat down and explained everything to Tony he would've helped them out because he did after the battle when Sam explained it. So what was the point of all that conflict before hand? And Cap treated government oversight as some big bogeyman when it isn't always. Preventing a bunch of superheroes from trashing a German airport is precisely the kind of thing international oversight should prevent. Yet Cap seemed to care more about catching the bad guy than protecting civilians, which is inconsistent with his other portrayals.

His time with the group in the end of Avengers and AoU?

Alongside other heroes who joined either side. And hawkeye wasn't even there between AoU and CA:CW

[CTTT]

[QUOTE=Mik;5618799]When Pietro saw the helicarriers, Cap mentioned this was what SHIELD was supposed to be like. He seemed impressed. Whereas I don't recall Clint inspiring him. Wanda, yeah, but not Pietro. Maybe I'm missing something

Clint is the most fully formed on paper, but on film the family just comes off as an accessory. In contrast, Scott showed his connection to Cassie on screen, so that was a lot more emotional to me than Clint's family disappearing.

They caught Zemo but would Zemo have done all that had Cap not been so willing to pursue him? And had they sat down and explained everything to Tony he would've helped them out because he did after the battle when Sam explained it. So what was the point of all that conflict before hand? And Cap treated government oversight as some big bogeyman when it isn't always. Preventing a bunch of superheroes from trashing a German airport is precisely the kind of thing international oversight should prevent. Yet Cap seemed to care more about catching the bad guy than protecting civilians, which is inconsistent with his other portrayals.



Alongside other heroes who joined either side. And hawkeye wasn't even there between AoU and CA:CW

I disagree. I felt Clint's connection to his family and really enjoyed the farm scene. It fleshed out his character a great deal. Even going so far to address that if he is the least powerful avenger, why do they need him? At least in CW he referenced his family saying he was disappointing them by joining the fight and not taking them camping/fishing.

[CosmiComic]

[QUOTE=CTTT;5618941]

When Pietro saw the helicarriers, Cap mentioned this was what SHIELD was supposed to be like. He seemed impressed. Whereas I don't recall Clint inspiring him. Wanda, yeah, but not Pietro. Maybe I'm missing something

Clint is the most fully formed on paper, but on film the family just comes off as an accessory. In contrast, Scott showed his connection to Cassie on screen, so that was a lot more emotional to me than Clint's family disappearing.





I disagree. I felt Clint's connection to his family and really enjoyed the farm scene. It fleshed out his character a great deal. Even going so far to address that if he is the least powerful avenger, why do they need him? At least in CW he referenced his family saying he was disappointing them by joining the fight and not taking them camping/fishing.

I assumed Clint was just joking by his tone. And I still don't get what exactly Cap could've said to him to convince him to come out of "retirement" that quickly

The farm scene helped a bit but it was just this instantaneous event. Yeah, it shows he cares about someone, but in terms of personality, like how he behaves or what motivates him, it doesn't really provide that. A lot of other MCU heroes can show who they are as a person in a short amount of time. I don't Hawkeye did that.

[CTTT]

[QUOTE=Mik;5619013]

I assumed Clint was just joking by his tone. And I still don't get what exactly Cap could've said to him to convince him to come out of "retirement" that quickly

The farm scene helped a bit but it was just this instantaneous event. Yeah, it shows he cares about someone, but in terms of personality, like how he behaves or what motivates him, it doesn't really provide that. A lot of other MCU heroes can show who they are as a person in a short amount of time. I don't Hawkeye did that.

Does he need a reason to fight with Cap? It's Cap, he's an Avenger and he's there when he's called. And having a family isn't enough motivation to do what he does? That he wants to fight for them and protect them?

[CosmiComic]

[QUOTE=CTTT;5619246]

Does he need a reason to fight with Cap? It's Cap, he's an Avenger and he's there when he's called. And having a family isn't enough motivation to do what he does? That he wants to fight for them and protect them?

Protect them from what? The intel was faulty and he ended up imprisoned and on house arrest. And what indicated he'd support Cap over Iron Man

[Frontier]

When Pietro saw the helicarriers, Cap mentioned this was what SHIELD was supposed to be like. He seemed impressed. Whereas I don't recall Clint inspiring him. Wanda, yeah, but not Pietro. Maybe I'm missing something

Why not both?

Clint is the most fully formed on paper, but on film the family just comes off as an accessory. In contrast, Scott showed his connection to Cassie on screen, so that was a lot more emotional to me than Clint's family disappearing.

As tacked on as they might feel, I think they were meant to be more additive, but this is talking in the context of them being introduced in a movie and not focused on like Scott's family gets in his solo films.

They caught Zemo but would Zemo have done all that had Cap not been so willing to pursue him? And had they sat down and explained everything to Tony he would've helped them out because he did after the battle when Sam explained it. So what was the point of all that conflict before hand? And Cap treated government oversight as some big bogeyman when it isn't always. Preventing a bunch of superheroes from trashing a German airport is precisely the kind of thing international oversight should prevent. Yet Cap seemed to care more about catching the bad guy than protecting civilians, which is inconsistent with his other portrayals.

I mean, Zemo's plans hinged on the heroes acting the way he knew they would (to an almost impossible degree) and for believable reasons. They didn't try to tell Tony because he was caught up in the Accords and they didn't trust Ross (and Tony had to go rogue to go after Zemo anyways) and they didn't think they had time for a quick once-over when Zemo could activate an army of Super Soldiers at any minute.

I don't think the intention was Steve was against complete oversight, he just didn't trust the current government with proper oversight. When has Cap been seen as caring more about catching bad guys than protecting civilians? What civilians has he let be endangered?

Alongside other heroes who joined either side. And hawkeye wasn't even there between AoU and CA:CW

But he was with Cap before all that.

Maybe if they had kept the scene in WS where Clint lets Cap go when SHIELD is hunting for him his loyalty to Steve would make more sense.

[CosmiComic]

Why not both?

It can but I don't recall where Clint inspired Pietro

As tacked on as they might feel, I think they were meant to be more additive, but this is talking in the context of them being introduced in a movie and not focused on like Scott's family gets in his solo films.

I think part of the problem is Clint's story doesn't seem to be as planned out as other heroes'

I mean, Zemo's plans hinged on the heroes acting the way he knew they would (to an almost impossible degree) and for believable reasons. They didn't try to tell Tony because he was caught up in the Accords and they didn't trust Ross (and Tony had to go rogue to go after Zemo anyways) and they didn't think they had time for a quick once-over when Zemo could activate an army of Super Soldiers at any minute.

I don't think the intention was Steve was against complete oversight, he just didn't trust the current government with proper oversight. When has Cap been seen as caring more about catching bad guys than protecting civilians? What civilians has he let be endangered?

His attitude in CW was more concerned with whether he could do what he wanted rather than whether people wanted it. Maybe he didn't disregard civilians per se but he didn't seem bothered by all the damage they caused as much as he did protecting Bucky or fighting Zemo. And Zemo's plan hinged on Cap and his team not cooperating with anyone. Cap could've explained things to Tony as soon as they met up in Germany.

But he was with Cap before all that.

Maybe if they had kept the scene in WS where Clint lets Cap go when SHIELD is hunting for him his loyalty to Steve would make more sense.

Maybe it would've. But Cap and Clint barely interacted in the movies. Nothing showed Clint was nore loyal to one side

[Frontier]

It can but I don't recall where Clint inspired Pietro

I guess I'm assuming he and Wanda were both together for Clint's inspirational speech and am wrong about that?

I think part of the problem is Clint's story doesn't seem to be as planned out as other heroes'

Well, part of that is probably because he's one of the few who is mostly developed in the big team movies.

His attitude in CW was more concerned with whether he could do what he wanted rather than whether people wanted it. Maybe he didn't disregard civilians per se but he didn't seem bothered by all the damage they caused as much as he did protecting Bucky or fighting Zemo. And Zemo's plan hinged on Cap and his team not cooperating with anyone. Cap could've explained things to Tony as soon as they met up in Germany.

I thought his concern was a government body dictating what heroes could or could not do. I feel like collateral damage is more forgiveable than actually endangering real people.

I think Zemo's plan hinged on giving Cap a reason to come after him. I guess there was whether they would talk with each other, but he always had the ace in the hole of the Starks deaths.

Steve probably didn't think he had time to explain to Tony to get through to him or to where they could get T'Challa to stand down or Ross to let them do anything.

Maybe it would've. But Cap and Clint barely interacted in the movies. Nothing showed Clint was nore loyal to one side

But there's nothing that discredits it, either.

[CosmiComic]

I guess I'm assuming he and Wanda were both together for Clint's inspirational speech and am wrong about that?

I don't recall Pietro being there. I think he came afterwards

Well, part of that is probably because he's one of the few who is mostly developed in the big team movies.

That's true. I think that's the main problem here

I thought his concern was a government body dictating what heroes could or could not do. I feel like collateral damage is more forgiveable than actually endangering real people.

I think Zemo's plan hinged on giving Cap a reason to come after him. I guess there was whether they would talk with each other, but he always had the ace in the hole of the Starks deaths.

Steve probably didn't think he had time to explain to Tony to get through to him or to where they could get T'Challa to stand down or Ross to let them do anything.

I understand Cap not wanting to be kept away from situations due to questionable political reasons. My problem was that he didn't seem at all willing to compromise. And Sam just encouraged him to be stubborn. And I'm not sure how preventing them doing whatever they want endangers people

It's possible he didn't think Tony or T'Challa would believe them in the time they had, but Tony did come around immediately after he saw the evidence.

But there's nothing that discredits it, either.

That's not the question here. The question ia whether Clint had reason to pick one side. I don't think he did

[Frontier]

I understand Cap not wanting to be kept away from situations due to questionable political reasons. My problem was that he didn't seem at all willing to compromise. And Sam just encouraged him to be stubborn. And I'm not sure how preventing them doing whatever they want endangers people

He wasn't willing to compromise with an entity he didn't trust and, post-WS, hadn't much reason to trust. I think he was thinking more in terms of how the guidelines of the Accords would hold them back or manipulate them rather than think that there was no need for accountability at all.

It's possible he didn't think Tony or T'Challa would believe them in the time they had, but Tony did come around immediately after he saw the evidence.

But by then they had already made the progress in stopping Zemo that they had intended for.

That's not the question here. The question ia whether Clint had reason to pick one side. I don't think he did

I think if anything it just further showed off his character.

[CosmiComic]

He wasn't willing to compromise with an entity he didn't trust and, post-WS, hadn't much reason to trust. I think he was thinking more in terms of how the guidelines of the Accords would hold them back or manipulate them rather than think that there was no need for accountability at all.

I'm aware of his reservations, and many of them are reasonable, but did he even bother to engage with the other side? Because all I saw was him being stubborn. He could've tried to find a way to operate with enough autonomy to avoid being manipulated by crooked governments without causing a bunch of damage. Tbh, I don't this was consistent with his previous portrayals. But I feel that way about most heroes in CA:CW

But by then they had already made the progress in stopping Zemo that they had intended for.

Except Zemo wanted then to show up becausehe wanted them to fight wach other

I think if anything it just further showed off his character.

Idk. Characters need reasons for doing things but we can't know thosd reasons if the characters never verbalize them, which he didn't

[Frontier]

I'm aware of his reservations, and many of them are reasonable, but did he even bother to engage with the other side? Because all I saw was him being stubborn. He could've tried to find a way to operate with enough autonomy to avoid being manipulated by crooked governments without causing a bunch of damage. Tbh, I don't this was consistent with his previous portrayals. But I feel that way about most heroes in CA:CW

He didn't really have much of a chance to engage when things escalated with Bucky in my opinion, which put him in opposition with the people in charge of the Accords.

Except Zemo wanted then to show up becausehe wanted them to fight wach other

They had no way of knowing that though.

Idk. Characters need reasons for doing things but we can't know thosd reasons if the characters never verbalize them, which he didn't

Didn't he say "Cap needed our help" to Wanda?