Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

**Chris0013** · 07-07-2021, 04:33 PM

2 great things from Loki episode 5....

1. Thanos copter
2. Throg

**John Venus** · 07-07-2021, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by blunt_eastwood

How come? I think it's doing pretty much as well as I would think.

Mostly because I remember how Loki was a B-lister and people having doubts about Hiddleston when he first announced as the villain in Thor (2011) and Avengers (2012). I like the character but the grip he has on his audience, the sheer magnitude of his popularity and how large that fandom is never ceases to astound me.

**Ascended** · 07-07-2021, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mik

I don't think there is someone as trustworthy, so I understand why he's reluctant. However, sometimes one has to work with those kind of people to achieve greater results. Otherwise the end result seems to be running off and no longer being a hero anymore.

Who said Steve wasn't a hero after Civil War? And again, you're looking at a generalized notion, at what "could" be. Look at what we were actually shown and told on screen; there's no reason to think the UN would do right by the Avengers.

And when was the UN shown to be evil? The same one people complain about being ineffective and weak?

If I recall, the World Security Council, which ran SHIELD, was a UN group and they tried to nuke NYC. The person put in charge of the Accorded Avengers was Ross. The VPOTUS worked with AIM to assassinate the POTUS, and the US is part of the UN.

Every example I listed earlier can be tied back to groups or nations that are a big part of the UN. At least as far as I can remember, I don't claim to have a perfect memory here. But just the fact that the UN put Ross in charge of the Avengers shows us that they couldn't be trusted with the team.

Does any of that reconstruction result in any meaningful, permanent change, though? Do any of the heroes actually rethink their actions?

Yes.

We see Steve go from a loyal soldier who tells Stark to follow orders, to a freedom fighter vigilante who tells the Secretary of State to screw off.

We see Tony go from a hot mess of a self-involved narcissist to a guy who willingly turns his authority and power over to others.

Widow tells the government to sod off in Winter Soldier, only to side with the UN in Civil War (changing her mind after seeing the fallout of SHIELD's collapse). And then change her mind again when she saw what working for the UN was actually like.

Rhodes is all for the Accords when they're introduced, and changes his mind later.

Banner, obviously, goes through a lot of reflection that leads to him changing his outlook and views. Loki goes through quite the character arc before dying, becoming more good after reflecting on his past actions. So yeah, I'd say all this results in permanent change.

I'd like to see a superhero actually fight for people's civil rights, against both governments and vigilantes. That would something new and modern

I'd be down for that. It's not a new idea (check out Golden Age Superman, there were no other vigilantes at the time but dude stomped on *all* the bullies) but it's always a good one, and rarely seen in the binary morality of superheroes.

And as for Ross, he's definitely a hypocrite and Steve is right not to trust him. However I think if Steve and Tony worked together, they probably could've ousted him from t at position.

Maybe, maybe not. My point isn't whether Steve "could" have changed things from the inside, it's that Steve had been trying to do exactly that and had come to the conclusion that it was a huge waste of time that detracted from the real work of a hero. Look at how many times the institutions he put his faith in turned out to be either deeply, horribly flawed, or actively tried to kill him. You want character growth and reflection? Steve breaking away from the institutions that had betrayed him or proven to be ineffective *is* character growth and reflection. You just don't seem to like the conclusions he came to, but that doesn't discount the fact that Steve's character did change and evolve over time, and that arc was fueled by past events.

Bottom line is Steve didn't think he could trust the UN to do right by the Avengers. And it turned out he was right.

**CosmiComic** · 07-07-2021, 07:21 PM