Page 282 of 760 FirstFirst ... 182232272278279280281282283284285286292332382 ... LastLast
Results 4,216 to 4,230 of 11387
  1. #4216
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    3,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I haven't seen BW yet because it wasn't worth paying to see when I have D+.

    But...

    WV and Loki are my two least favorite MCU additions. If I made a rank or tier list, they would be at the very bottom.

    Once again, that doesn't mean they are trash, but looking at just MCU properties, they were my least favorite.

    So, I am kinda in that minority with you so far lol.
    Being in the minority doesn't make us haters. I will say that I enjoyed the Phase 4 stuff. I didn't hate it and I thought the shows and movies were well-made. I appreciate Disney doing different and new things. My problems with WandaVision and Loki boiled down largely to the exposition. A lot of what was being said in those shows wasn't actually legitimate dialogue in my opinion. It was just people explaining how things work, how they feel and updating audiences about previous MCU entries. After a while, I just got kinda tired of it? And I don't mind "talky" superhero shows at all. I had some problems with Falcon and the Winter Soldier as well. For me, I REALLY didn't like Sam openly sympathizing with violent murdering terrorists. I felt that was really out of character for him. And I thought the show was kind of pointless. At the end of it, "Sam is ready to take up the mantle of Captain America, Bucky's been rehabilitated and Zemo's back in prison. So basically almost everything is back to what it was at the end of Endgame." I DO think WandaVision had some nice emotional moments, but most of Phase 4 seems just kinda soulless to me. I'm happy and glad that most folks are enjoying it though.

    And by the way, I just read an article with comments on it talking about what happened to Captain America at the Endgame (it was posted a couple of days ago). And guess what, they brought up what Captain America was doing during the MLK assassination, JFK assassination, Vietnam War, and 9/11. Hooray!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 09-21-2021 at 09:59 AM.

  2. #4217
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    19,547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I had some problems with Falcon and the Winter Soldier as well. For me, I REALLY didn't like Sam openly sympathizing with violent murdering terrorists. I felt that was really out of character for him. And I thought the show was kind of pointless. At the end of it, "Sam is ready to take up the mantle of Captain America, Bucky's been rehabilitated and Zemo's back in prison. So basically almost everything is back to what it was at the end of Endgame."
    I think Sam was right to sympathize with the Flag Smashers.....up to a point. The Smashers did have a valid concern and I think it could be argued that voicing that concern through proper channels hadn't achieved anything (I believe this is talked about a few times?). But that only gets you so far and when the Smashers started killing people, especially innocent ones, that's where Sam should have drawn the line. By the final episode I was like "Gods dammit Sam what're you doing? Take those bastards down!"

    I dunno about the show just putting everyone back to post-Endgame status though. Bucky isn't in the same headspace and has done a lot to put his time as the Soldier behind him, Sam's reconnected with his family and community and has the spotlight (literally) on him as the new Cap. Sharron is in a totally different place. Stuff with Val and USAgent hint at what's coming next. And we got our best look yet at the larger socio-political climate post-blip. I really don't agree with the notion that the show didn't ultimately change anything or advance the characters.

    Like you, I've enjoyed phase 4 but I'm not blind to its flaws either. But after the spectacle of Infinity War-Endgame, I think it's been nice to get these more character-focused stories. I think as we shift into a MCU without the core faces of Tony and Steve (and Nat, and whoever else is leaving soon; Clint? Thor?) it's been good to showcase the secondary characters like this. Makes it feel more like a natural evolution and less like a new starting point (and the IP's still finishing up their trilogies is a blessing in disguise for the same reason).

    And by the way, I just read an article with comments on it talking about what happened to Captain America at the Endgame (it was posted a couple of days ago). And guess what, they brought up what Captain America was doing during the MLK assassination, JFK assassination, Vietnam War, and 9/11. Hooray!
    So what did the article say? I'm assuming "why didn't Steve stop these awful things from happening?" I don't get the argument, honestly. The entire point of Steve going back in time, whether he's in a branched timeline or not, is that he *retired.* I think losing in Infinity War was it for him. He wasn't part of Nat's Avengers. He was done fighting....until Scott came along with a plan that gave Steve the chance to tie up loose ends and redeem his Infinity War loss. He was already retired, Endgame just gave him the chance to retire the way he wanted to, and with a semi-clean conscience. And I don't think he'd take such a big risk anyway.

    Look at old Loki; he lived a long time after Thanos "killed" him, on a deserted planet right? We're talking centuries, maybe thousands of years, given Asgardian/jotun lifespans. But the TVA didn't find him until old Loki tried to leave and engage with the wider galaxy again. When he was living on his rock, all by himself, he wasn't impacting history. I think Steve did the same thing, but instead of living by himself on an alien planet he just became a house husband.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #4218
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    11,186

    Default

    I think FaWS helped move things on to some extent, and I appreciate it attempting to address a real-world issue but in the MCU, but it was a bit clunky and underdeveloped. I think WandaVision and Loki were better in that regard. The problem with the Flagsmashers is the same with Killmonger: villainizing the only people trying to make things better. And honestly, I don't think Sam and Bucky really made the best choices handling the whole thing.

    Personally, I don't like Steve's ending. I think it was very OOC

  4. #4219
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    21,811

    Default

    You know, I would like a what if story where everything didn't end horribly.

    Only the Carter episode had a "happy" ending really. aka the same basic ending as TFA . Ep2 was happy until the stinger i guess.

    All the other ones were crazy depressing really.

    Is the "sacred" timeline the only timeline where everything isn't horrible lol

    I mean, instead of Party Thor upcoming, why not "What if Thor was always worthy" or something lol.
    Last edited by MindofShadow; 09-21-2021 at 12:21 PM.
    Black Panther Discord Server: https://discord.gg/SA3hQerktm

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  5. #4220
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    114,772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    You know, I would like a what if story where everything didn't end horribly.

    Only the Carter episode had a "happy" ending really. aka the same basic ending as TFA . Ep2 was happy until the stinger i guess.

    All the other ones were crazy depressing really.

    Is the "sacred" timeline the only timeline where everything isn't horrible lol

    I mean, instead of Party Thor upcoming, why not "What if Thor was always worthy" or something lol.
    I think the big depressing twist of the Party Thor episode is pretty obvious when you realize what the major change that leads to it is.

    I feel like part of it is that they won't want to take away from the importance of the protagonists and what they accomplished in the "main universe" by showing that everything is hunky dory if either they die or are different from how we know them. Which is kind of like the comic What If.

    Like, sure, T'Challa is a much better and more competent Star-Lord than Peter Quill is but we see why Peter Quill needs to be Star-Lord at the very end of the episode.

    Part of my problem with the Captain Carter episode was how little changed and that Steve Rogers becoming Captain America was seemingly unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. But I still think we haven't seen the broader implications of Peggy being a Super Soldier instead of Steve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I think FaWS helped move things on to some extent, and I appreciate it attempting to address a real-world issue but in the MCU, but it was a bit clunky and underdeveloped. I think WandaVision and Loki were better in that regard. The problem with the Flagsmashers is the same with Killmonger: villainizing the only people trying to make things better. And honestly, I don't think Sam and Bucky really made the best choices handling the whole thing.

    Personally, I don't like Steve's ending. I think it was very OOC
    It wasn't their motives that was the Flag Smashers' problem but their methods. That was always the concern and that's why the hero is inspired enough to try and make things happen the right away instead of the crazy extremist way.

  6. #4221
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    11,186

    Default

    Yeah, but that's what I'm criticizing. We're expected to sympathize with the Flag Smashers but they killed several people, including one of the recurring characters on the show, while showing little humanity for us to sympathize with. And they were made to be villains despite supposedly having a good cause.

  7. #4222
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    114,772

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Yeah, but that's what I'm criticizing. We're expected to sympathize with the Flag Smashers but they killed several people, including one of the recurring characters on the show, while showing little humanity for us to sympathize with. And they were made to be villains despite supposedly having a good cause.
    Well, sympathize with them up to a point, although the Flag Smashers were definitely clunkily handled.

    It wasn't their casue that was wrong, but again, their methods.

  8. #4223
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    5,204

    Default

    The Flag Smashers deserve no sympathy...they are terrorists...plain and simple. And the only thing John Walker did wrong was he did what his country asked of him...he just did it in front of cameras. His military record and 3 MoHs did not come form filling out paperwork properly and accounting for every piece of equipment in a supply warehouse.

  9. #4224
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    3,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think Sam was right to sympathize with the Flag Smashers.....up to a point. The Smashers did have a valid concern and I think it could be argued that voicing that concern through proper channels hadn't achieved anything (I believe this is talked about a few times?). But that only gets you so far and when the Smashers started killing people, especially innocent ones, that's where Sam should have drawn the line. By the final episode I was like "Gods dammit Sam what're you doing? Take those bastards down!"

    I dunno about the show just putting everyone back to post-Endgame status though. Bucky isn't in the same headspace and has done a lot to put his time as the Soldier behind him, Sam's reconnected with his family and community and has the spotlight (literally) on him as the new Cap. Sharron is in a totally different place. Stuff with Val and USAgent hint at what's coming next. And we got our best look yet at the larger socio-political climate post-blip. I really don't agree with the notion that the show didn't ultimately change anything or advance the characters.

    Like you, I've enjoyed phase 4 but I'm not blind to its flaws either. But after the spectacle of Infinity War-Endgame, I think it's been nice to get these more character-focused stories. I think as we shift into a MCU without the core faces of Tony and Steve (and Nat, and whoever else is leaving soon; Clint? Thor?) it's been good to showcase the secondary characters like this. Makes it feel more like a natural evolution and less like a new starting point (and the IP's still finishing up their trilogies is a blessing in disguise for the same reason).



    So what did the article say? I'm assuming "why didn't Steve stop these awful things from happening?" I don't get the argument, honestly. The entire point of Steve going back in time, whether he's in a branched timeline or not, is that he *retired.* I think losing in Infinity War was it for him. He wasn't part of Nat's Avengers. He was done fighting....until Scott came along with a plan that gave Steve the chance to tie up loose ends and redeem his Infinity War loss. He was already retired, Endgame just gave him the chance to retire the way he wanted to, and with a semi-clean conscience. And I don't think he'd take such a big risk anyway.

    Look at old Loki; he lived a long time after Thanos "killed" him, on a deserted planet right? We're talking centuries, maybe thousands of years, given Asgardian/jotun lifespans. But the TVA didn't find him until old Loki tried to leave and engage with the wider galaxy again. When he was living on his rock, all by himself, he wasn't impacting history. I think Steve did the same thing, but instead of living by himself on an alien planet he just became a house husband.
    Yeah, I don't wanna sound like a stick in the mud. I must admit I liked the earlier movies from the first three Phases more. But I do get a feeling Shang-Chi is a little bit of a return to form for Marvel Studios. You could tell Disney was really promoting this movie a LOT. I didn't get that sense with Black Widow at all. I can see where you're coming from with Falcon and the Winter Soldier about the characters changing. I will say that I do think Bucky was somewhat under-utilized in that show. I think Sam got what he needed out of it, but I know a lot of Winter Soldier fans were not happy about the way he was treated. I have to say that the Flag Smashers were a weird combination of being bloodthirsty terrorists AND non-threatening villains. And dude, I COMPLETELY agree with you about secondary characters from the first three phases getting the spotlight now. Many of these characters have pretty big fan bases by now, and I TOTALLY agree with Feige's decision to feature them in more projects. I'm not more interested in seeing more of the familiar faces as opposed to too many new ones. I was so bummed last summer when it appeared that Nick Fury and War Machine weren't gonna get anything to star in after so many other characters did. I shouldn't have worried. Feige's taken care of that. I'm still really excited about a lot of what's coming down the pipeline in Phase 4. I also agree with you about Captain America and old Loki (although this years on that planet DEFINITELY improved his magical skills). I didn't mind that he got to hang up his shield. Everybody's journey's gotta come to an end sometime. So I'm okay with him doing his own thing. There's a lot of other heroes that can step into his shoes now.

    And here's the article (the geopolitical stuff can be found in the comments section):

    https://www.themarysue.com/marvel-ph...game-conflict/

    I just want my old-school MCU humor back (in my view, it hasn't really been present as much in the last few shows and movies):



    "So I've decided that you just die, pal." ROFL.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 09-21-2021 at 03:03 PM.

  10. #4225
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    11,186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, sympathize with them up to a point, although the Flag Smashers were definitely clunkily handled.

    It wasn't their casue that was wrong, but again, their methods.
    I guess they were always meant to be villains but the MCU seems to take these villains, give vaguely good aims, then make them into murderers to justify the heroes. Instead of, you know, making the heroes have good aims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    The Flag Smashers deserve no sympathy...they are terrorists...plain and simple. And the only thing John Walker did wrong was he did what his country asked of him...he just did it in front of cameras. His military record and 3 MoHs did not come form filling out paperwork properly and accounting for every piece of equipment in a supply warehouse.
    Except he killed a guy who surrendered.

  11. #4226
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    3,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I guess they were always meant to be villains but the MCU seems to take these villains, give vaguely good aims, then make them into murderers to justify the heroes. Instead of, you know, making the heroes have good aims.



    Except he killed a guy who surrendered.
    Yeah, that's my only issue with what happened to that dude Walker killed. And wasn't it that red-haired lady who killed his friend? The guy that Walker killed wasn't even the worst Flag Smasher!

  12. #4227
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    5,204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Except he killed a guy who surrendered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Yeah, that's my only issue with what happened to that dude Walker killed. And wasn't it that red-haired lady who killed his friend? The guy that Walker killed wasn't even the worst Flag Smasher!
    He never surrendered...at no time does he say "I surrender" or "I give up"...he was an armed (I consider the SSS advantage a weapon) terrorist trying to escape.

    Last edited by Chris0013; 09-21-2021 at 03:26 PM.

  13. #4228
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    5,264

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I also agree with you about Captain America and old Loki (although this years on that planet DEFINITELY improved his magical skills). I didn't mind that he got to hang up his shield. Everybody's journey's gotta come to an end sometime. So I'm okay with him doing his own thing. There's a lot of other heroes that can step into his shoes now.
    I don't think anybody disagrees with the idea of Steve retiring, and getting old. But I personally think that him going back to the past is the worst way to do that. Winter Soldier, Civil War and to a certain extent Age of Ultron were about him moving on from what happened and finding a way to live in the present, including embracing the people around him that matter, like Bucky, Sam and Natasha and maybe Wanda.
    Last edited by Alpha; 09-21-2021 at 03:24 PM.

  14. #4229
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    11,186

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Yeah, that's my only issue with what happened to that dude Walker killed. And wasn't it that red-haired lady who killed his friend? The guy that Walker killed wasn't even the worst Flag Smasher!
    I guess the SSS impaired his judgement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    He never surrendered...at no time does he say "I surrender" or "I give up"...he was an armed (I consider the SSS advantage a weapon) terrorist trying to escape.

    He wasn't fighting back, though

  15. #4230
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    19,547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, sympathize with them up to a point, although the Flag Smashers were definitely clunkily handled.

    It wasn't their casue that was wrong, but again, their methods.
    Absolutely clunkily handled. They became the worst part of the show, and it's execution was always a little uneven in the first place. Like was said, Bucky didn't get all the screen time or development he deserved (I accept that, since the show was mostly about Sam taking up the shield and Buck still grew as a character, but still), Sharron didn't get enough screen time to make her Broker reveal have any true impact, and Zemo only wore the mask once for five seconds! Oh, and I think they did a good job of exploring John's character, but failed to really sell the idea that what made him a great soldier is what makes him a bad hero.

    But I think it's real easy to sympathize with the Smashers. They built homes and lives for themselves after the Snap, and then the governments which had ignored them and failed to help them attempt to deport them back after half a decade? I'd be pissed too. The big flaw with the Smashers is that their motivations are talked about a lot, but little is seen on screen to help sell why they took such extreme measures. And of course, their methods are unforgivable. If they had only gone after the politicians trying to kick them out of their homes I feel like I might've agreed with them, but once the first innocent died the Smashers lost any and all redeeming qualities.

    I applaud Marvel for trying to explore a topic like this, but I don't think it's a conversation they can have while still retaining the superhero mold of binary morality. In order to fully and honestly discuss socio-political issues like this, you have to abandon the idea of a hero who is always, 100% on the right side, and I don't think any of us want that. Nobody wants a MCU where the motivations of hero and villain are so blurred there's no real, honest difference, but that's largely the kind of discussion a group like the Smashers demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I don't think anybody disagrees with the idea of Steve retiring, and getting old. But I personally think that him going back to the past is the worst way to do that.
    It's definitely not what I would've done, but I can't say that it's necessarily a "wrong" direction either. I think it's a valid choice for Steve to spend his years in the present only to learn that he is truly a man out of time, and true happiness isn't something he'll find in the modern world.

    Not something I'd ever want for the comics, but for the finite narrative of the films I think it's acceptable. Of course, I'm a huge fan of Atwell and Peggy, so any excuse to see her is something I'll roll with.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •