Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

[inisideguy]

Jeez, did I trigger you or something? I'm not trying to antagonize anyone here

But no, I don't like FF. I don't think they'd be a great addition to the MCU. I've never hid that. But whether I like them or not, you can't deny they benefited from systemic racism, because Marvel didn't bother to create a similar family of heroes for non-White heroes. The Avengers and X-Men at least allow for more diverse heroes than the FF. The fact I think they're boring and dated doesn't help

And really, you're going to say 'we have to diversify everything now'? That's such a reactionary statement. As if White heroes are few in number.

Wait the Fantastic four benefitted from systemic racism? What? So if there was a group created in 1961 with four white people, then Marvel should have created a similar group with four African Americans? And Four Indian Americans? And four Asian Americans? And four gay Americans? Ok I'm a liberal guy but this type of stuff is way over my head. I mean if I have learned anything from reading this post is how and what people think about regarding comic book characters. This to me is getting out of control. You don't like them, and if they made it an all hispanic team you wouldn't like them either. So just say I don't like the concept. All of this talk about diversifying every freaking thing to some extent is never going to make people happy. I mean the incredibles is all white. Did they benefit from systemic racism because Disney/Pixar didn't created a similar cartoon with African Americans or Indian Americans in them? Where does this end. Because even if they did they can't possibly create a movie based on the Incredibles concept that includes every minority in every country.

I mean heck we are just talking about this from an American perspective. We could expand out and say boy Marvel hasn't created and Arab team. And they don't have a Turkish team either. And they sure as heck don't have and all Jewish team, or hey what about the Japanese? They should have a team like the Fantastic four. Heck right now sure they have Shang Chi but he's Chinese American. He's not even really Chinese. Where does this end? I mean I could be and Irish Marvel fan living in Belfast and think boy Marvel created the Fantastic four. They are American. Marvel has to many American Characters. I am offended I want them to create and all Irish from Ireland team to counter balance the Fantastic Four.

[charliehustle415]

Jeez, did I trigger you or something? I'm not trying to antagonize anyone here

But no, I don't like FF. I don't think they'd be a great addition to the MCU. I've never hid that. But whether I like them or not, you can't deny they benefited from systemic racism, because Marvel didn't bother to create a similar family of heroes for non-White heroes. The Avengers and X-Men at least allow for more diverse heroes than the FF. The fact I think they're boring and dated doesn't help

And really, you're going to say 'we have to diversify everything now'? That's such a reactionary statement. As if White heroes are few in number.

That's a good point, the closest we've got is probably T'Challa's fam?

But a real heroic family similar to the Richards, nah we don't got one of them yet.

[inisideguy]

That's a good point, the closest we've got is probably T'Challa's fam?

But a real heroic family similar to the Richards, nah we don't got one of them yet.

If the argument is Marvel should create more minority based superhero based teams then ok. But these books have to sell. But the Fantastic Four shouldn't be prevented from going into the MCU because they are not a minority based family team. Sure they were created when the country was majority white. But they shouldn't be punished for it or eliminated because of it. Captain America was created 1941. He's a white guy created by white creators during a time where 85 percent of the country was white and heck Jim Crow was still happening. But that doesnt mean he shouldn't have got a movie.

[charliehustle415]

Wait the Fantastic four benefitted from systemic racism? What? So if there was a group created in 1961 with four white people, then Marvel should have created a similar group with four African Americans? And Four Indian Americans? And four Asian Americans? And four gay Americans? Ok I'm a liberal guy but this type of stuff is way over my head. I mean if I have learned anything from reading this post is how and what people think about regarding comic book characters. This to me is getting out of control. You don't like them, and if they made it an all hispanic team you wouldn't like them either. So just say I don't like the concept. All of this talk about diversifying every freaking thing to some extent is never going to make people happy. I mean the incredibles is all white. Did they benefit from systemic racism because Disney/Pixar didn't created a similar cartoon with African Americans or Indian Americans in them? Where does this end. Because even if they did they can't possibly create a movie based on the Incredibles concept that includes every minority in every country.

I mean heck we are just talking about this from an American perspective. We could expand out and say boy Marvel hasn't created and Arab team. And they don't have a Turkish team either. And they sure as heck don't have and all Jewish team, or hey what about the Japanese? They should have a team like the Fantastic four. Heck right now sure they have Shang Chi but he's Chinese American. He's not even really Chinese. Where does this end? I mean I could be and Irish Marvel fan living in Belfast and think boy Marvel created the Fantastic four. They are American. Marvel has to many American Characters. I am offended I want them to create and all Irish from Ireland team to counter balance the Fantastic Four.

I think the point (forgive me for putting words in your mouth CosmiComic)

Is that black & brown families were not considered "mainstream" in comics and other media, not only that but having black & brown characters in a book made it a "black" comic.

If I am remembering correctly McDuffie wasn't allowed to add too many black characters to his Justice League team because it would make the book "black"

So there is precedent of systemic racism even in comics and quite recently

[charliehustle415]

If the argument is Marvel should create more minority based superhero based teams then ok. But these books have to sell. But the Fantastic Four shouldn't be prevented from going into the MCU because they are not a minority based family team. Sure they were created when the country was majority white. But they shouldn't be punished for it or eliminated because of it. Captain America was created 1941. He's a white guy created by white creators during a time where 85 percent of the country was white and heck Jim Crow was still happening. But that doesnt mean he shouldn't have got a movie.

I totally agree, but I don't think that's the point being made. I think the point is black & brown hero families never came into existence or prominence because of systemic racism

[inisideguy]

I totally agree, but I don't think that's the point being made. I think the point is black & brown hero families never came into existence or prominence because of systemic racism

Yea that may be the point. But that has no bearing on the Fantastic Four having a movie made about them. I mean heck the Three Musketeers and James Bond, and Tarzan, and Indiana Jones and every fictional character over the past couple hundreds of years have benefitted from a similar thing. Its sucks that Marvel has been negligent in having black and family units in comics. I agree. What I don't agree is that because of that the Fantastic four shouldn't be white. Or shouldn't be a thing at all.

[Psy-lock]

Marvel doesn't have any other white family teams either, not in the same way the FF is. That's kinda the point, it makes them stand out from the other heroes.

[charliehustle415]

Yea that may be the point. But that has no bearing on the Fantastic Four having a movie made about them. I mean heck the Three Musketeers and James Bond, and Tarzan, and Indiana Jones and every fictional character over the past couple hundreds of years have benefitted from a similar thing. Its sucks that Marvel has been negligent in having black and family units in comics. I agree. What I don't agree is that because of that the Fantastic four shouldn't be white. Or shouldn't be a thing at all.

I hear ya, I don't think they should change the race simply to change the race.

But would Reed's character be that much different if he was black or brown? The same with the Storms I don't think their character would change that much.

The only character who I think shouldn't be changed is Ben because he is a New York Jew and it would be a disservice to that community if that was removed since they are a very important aspect of New York and it is a large part of Ben's character unlike Reed or Sue & Johnny

[inisideguy]

I hear ya, I don't think they should change the race simply to change the race.

But would Reed's character be that much different if he was black or brown? The same with the Storms I don't think their character would change that much.

The only character who I think shouldn't be changed is Ben because he is a New York Jew and it would be a disservice to that community if that was removed since they are a very important aspect of New York and it is a large part of Ben's character.

The thing is like I have read other posters, post similar things is Marvel has a lot of minority characters. They should be using those more effectively and at least in the MCU they seem to be coming around. I don't know who it benefits to change their race. To me that is pandering and lazy. I have written this about Iron Fist as well. Taking legacy characters and changing their race just for the sake of it when you have many many characters you already have or heck can create, is actually offensive to me because the company is being so lazy and wants to use the Brand of the Legacy Character to sell books. Why can't Marvel create an African American team based around Luke Cage? Throw in the Falcon and other ect. And promote the heck out of it. You don't need to change another teams race. Use what you have. What you as a company have created over the last 50 years.

[charliehustle415]

The thing is like I have read other posters, post similar things is Marvel has a lot of minority characters. They should be using those more effectively and at least in the MCU they seem to be coming around. I don't know who it benefits to change their race. To me that is pandering and lazy. I have written this about Iron Fist as well. Taking legacy characters and changing their race just for the sake of it when you have many many characters you already have or heck can create, is actually offensive to me because the company is being so lazy and wants to use the Brand of the Legacy Character to sell books. Why can't Marvel create an African American team based around Luke Cage? Throw in the Falcon and other ect. And promote the heck out of it. You don't need to change another teams race. Use what you have. What you as a company have created over the last 50 years.

100% agree, I guess I'll leave it with a question "would those original POC characters ever be as popular as the established white characters especially since the white characters have almost 70 plus years of being in the cultural zeitgeist?"

I know it sucks but most original characters are not as popular as offshoot ones from other popular characters.

I mean the two biggest POC heroes are copies of legacy heroes: Miles & Kamala (Spidey & Captain Marvel respectively)

Black Panther is famous because soooo many writers pushed him sooo hard that him not being great was inescapable. I mean Lee, Kirby, Priest, Hudlin, Hickman, and Coates all had a hand in making him stellar.

Now think about the other POC heroes?

[inisideguy]

100% agree, I guess I'll leave it with a question "would those original POC characters ever be as popular as the established white characters especially since the white characters have almost 70 plus years of being in the cultural zeitgeist?"

I know it sucks but most original characters are not as popular as offshoot ones from other popular characters.

I mean the two biggest POC heroes are copies of legacy heroes: Miles & Kamala (Spidey & Captain Marvel respectively)

Black Panther is famous because soooo many writers pushed him sooo hard that him not being great was inescapable. I mean Lee, Kirby, Priest, Hudlin, Hickman, and Coates all had a hand in making him stellar.

Now think about the other POC heroes?

I don't mind them using Miles and Kamala. But they didn't get rid of white spidey and white captain marvel or not make movies about those characters at their expense. There are legacy characters like Miles and Kamala that work for me. Heck just in the MCU the replacing of Captain America with the Falcon feels totally right. What I don't like is the idea of well, the fantastic four are white but we need change that cause that is dated. So lets make them a minority team or throw in a bunch of different races on the team. Or as some people have said just don't make a movie about them at all. So in a case like Iron Fist for example, and heck I don't know this new one could be cool, it seems to me to be a reaction and not organic. Maybe I am wrong on that.

What bothers me as I have said is not the fact that a fantastic four movie is being done. But Marvel has an incredible cache minority characters I remember reading spider-man as a kid. And they had the Prowler. He's been forgotten. But there are so many of these guys and women. They are there promote them! make a movie with these African American characters! Its already been shown it can work. But that doesnt mean to me that the Fantastic Four shouldn't be made with white people.

[Amadeus Arkham]

I have a really strong hunch the MCU FF will get race-swapped. Not all of them, as I think Ben Grimm will kept white Jewish but I do think it’s fairly likely Jon Watts makes the decision to race change some members of the team. I don’t personally care as some fans will predictably take umbrage with changing the character’s, but I don’t really care as long you give me a quality movie.

[Spiderfan001]

I have a really strong hunch the MCU FF will get race-swapped. Not all of them, as I think Ben Grimm will kept white Jewish but I do think it’s fairly likely Jon Watts makes the decision to race change some members of the team. I don’t personally care as some fans will predictably take umbrage with changing the character’s, but I don’t really care as long you give me a quality movie.

As long as they get the characters right it doesn't matter, but if they don't then those people will have more ammunition against race-swapping

[Force de Phenix]

Wait the Fantastic four benefitted from systemic racism? What? So if there was a group created in 1961 with four white people, then Marvel should have created a similar group with four African Americans? And Four Indian Americans? And four Asian Americans? And four gay Americans? Ok I'm a liberal guy but this type of stuff is way over my head. I mean if I have learned anything from reading this post is how and what people think about regarding comic book characters. This to me is getting out of control. You don't like them, and if they made it an all hispanic team you wouldn't like them either. So just say I don't like the concept. All of this talk about diversifying every freaking thing to some extent is never going to make people happy. I mean the incredibles is all white. Did they benefit from systemic racism because Disney/Pixar didn't created a similar cartoon with African Americans or Indian Americans in them? Where does this end. Because even if they did they can't possibly create a movie based on the Incredibles concept that includes every minority in every country.

I mean heck we are just talking about this from an American perspective. We could expand out and say boy Marvel hasn't created and Arab team. And they don't have a Turkish team either. And they sure as heck don't have and all Jewish team, or hey what about the Japanese? They should have a team like the Fantastic four. Heck right now sure they have Shang Chi but he's Chinese American. He's not even really Chinese. Where does this end? I mean I could be and Irish Marvel fan living in Belfast and think boy Marvel created the Fantastic four. They are American. Marvel has to many American Characters. I am offended I want them to create and all Irish from Ireland team to counter balance the Fantastic Four.

How is what getting out of control? One poster in a thread on a forum says something and you think it's a problem that's getting out of control. The internet isn't the end all be all and is just people throwing ideas around, but they don't automatically become real.

This is why people should take breaks from the internet. It's too much sometimes.

[Ascended]

It all comes down to whether they cast John Krazinsky as Reed. If he plays Reed then I like the idea of his wife Emily Blunt playing Sue. Which means Johnny should be white too, and Ben, the guy covered in rocks, shouldn't be the only PoC.