Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

[CTTT]

I had to jump off the train too because these shows aren't structured for weekly viewing. I found them very disappointing. Since Hawkeye I have waited for the shows to conclude and then binge them all at once and my rate of disliking and being disappointed with the Disney+ shows I have drastically gone down.

Yeah I agree with that. I like binging myself and wait for the shows to drop and watch. The only thing that's hard to do is avoid spoilers because they are everywhere, lol

[Tofali]

Yeah I agree with that. I like binging myself and wait for the shows to drop and watch. The only thing that's hard to do is avoid spoilers because they are everywhere, lol

It's easy for me I just mute words, unfollow or block anyone that will spoil anything that I haven't watched but I've reached a point that I don't even care when something is spoiled for me.

[MindofShadow]

I felt better about the MCU at large when I stopped seeing each thing as a "must see event" like back in the day.

It simply isn't that anymore. I just get around to it when I get around to it. Which is fine, that is the beauty of D+ at this point.


Whatched ep1 of Shulk with Wifey to feel it out and it seemed solid. She enjoyed it. So far, the post endgame stuff shes enjoyed have been the ones disconnected from larger MCU plots. There was nothing she needed to remember about SheHulk. "Hulk Smart" is pretty much it lol.



And I also generally wait til most of hte episodes are out to watch any of the shows (for any streaming channel) and then watch them at my own pace. NONE of the shows are worth the wait week to week lol

[Frontier]

Random Multiverse of Madness Thoughts:

- I do think the movie has a thorough-line and arc for Strange...can he be happy? Can he accept help? But it kind of gets lost with everything else going on in the movie.

- They're really pushing the Christine Palmer thing after What If. Like, they seemed like exes and close friends in the first one but now it's "I never got over you, I'm in love with you in every dimension, etc." Where does that leave Clea then? The one woman he can actually be an equal partner with and won't put up with his @#$% but still want to be with him?

- Wanda turning villain was so abrupt. Like, barely five minutes of screentime and then she's like "yeah, okay, I'm the bad guy." And like the entire point of the ending of WandaVision was Wanda realizing she screwed up and trying to learn to control her powers so this doesn't happen again and subverting the tropes of powerful women going crazy and falling prey to female stereotypes...only for this to double down on her being an out of control powerful woman who is obsessed with her kids (crazy moms, amirite?). It's like they struggled to come up with a villain for this film so they just defaulted to making it Wanda and blaming the Darkhold so they didn't have to really put more work into it. Even their justifications for it mostly boil down to "well, it happened in the comics" even though it was badly handled in the comics to begin with. The only reason it works as well as it does is because of Elizabeth Olsen's acting.

- Also the same issue in the comics where Wanda is so obsessed with her kids that she barely brings up Vision when WandaVision was as much, if not more, about her love for Vision as it was about her getting kids. I think Elizabeth Olsen had to justify why Vision wasn't in the Variant universe because thinks they got divorced in that timeline, but it just feels like it's devaluing their romance.

- It's weird that a Dr. Strange film doesn't actually have a Dr. Strange villain in it other than Mordo. Like, Wanda feels like they mixed Umar and Nightmare together, but why not, like, actually use those characters? Well, they might just use Umar since they introduced Clea, but still.

- Even as Sorcerer Supreme, Wong still ends up playing sidekick.

- I love how Rintrah gets so much marketing and merch and doesn't even get named in the actual movie. Or does, really, anything.

- Their take on America Chavez's origin was more comical than I think they intended it to be. I mean, a bee!? A frikkin bee!? Although her parents are actually alive now, so...good for her?

- All the stuff with Mordo really feels like it's relying a lot on viewers taking at face-value a lot of stuff happening off-screen like Mordo having an entire character arc or story of becoming comic Baron Mordo and dedicating his life to destroying Dr. Strange so that you really feel the contrast with how happy Variant Mordo was to see Strange or that moment when Strange goads him into playing to type and trying to kill him. And this isn't even taking into account how they were planning to just have Wanda unceremoniously off the main Mordo at the start of the movie. Chiwetel Ejiofor's just trying to do the best that he can with what little they give him to work with.

- Also "Baron Karl Mordo" was on the level of "I'm a Baron, Sam." And yet Strange only notices the "Karl" part. Did he not hear Mordo's first name in the first movie?

- The two Strange's talking about their sister was probably one of the more powerful moments in the movie. Also I feel like Cumberbatch actually did a solid job differentiating all the Stranges, even the ones with really brief scenes. But so much for Strange Supreme actually being in this even though they basically just threw in an equivalent of him.

- So is possessed Wanda off the hook for basically murdering the entire Illuminati? I know she was possessed, but still...

- The Illuminati was so much fanservice that they didn't seem to really think past that sequence with Strange when they fight Wanda. I mean, Reed does nothing other than tell Wanda how to basically kill Black Bolt and the women are the only ones who put up much of a fight.

- Does being Captain Marvel somehow make you smugger and more condescending? Because that seems to be what happened to Maria.

- They can't even get James Spader to do marginal Ultron lines anymore?

- Patrick Stewart still knows how to deliver as Professor X. A mental neck snap was kind of another graphic way of killing him though.

- I have to say, as much as I question Christine Palmer's role in this film, Rachel McAdams looks great with red hair and in that bodysuit.

- The Clea mid-credit scene was so abrupt after the prior ending. The Darkhold power starts going crazy in Strange and then suddenly...mid-credit scene he's just walking around normally, gets immediately accosted by Clea, and is off to an adventure in the Dark Dimension like nothing ever happened outside his third eye. Like the mid-credit scene would've been a much better ending but it felt like they needed one big moment to justify their usual mid-credit scene thing. It was just a bit too much for me.

[Omega Alpha]

Random Multiverse of Madness Thoughts:

- I do think the movie has a thorough-line and arc for Strange...can he be happy? Can he accept help? But it kind of gets lost with everything else going on in the movie. .

He learns to be less controlling and let go of things. Not letting go and wanting to be in control is how he ended up going to sorcery in the first place.

- They're really pushing the Christine Palmer thing after What If. Like, they seemed like exes and close friends in the first one but now it's "I never got over you, I'm in love with you in every dimension, etc." Where does that leave Clea then? The one woman he can actually be an equal partner with and won't put up with his @#$% but still want to be with him?

If they become a couple, he'll get over Christine, doesn't seem that hard to understand.

- Wanda turning villain was so abrupt. Like, barely five minutes of screentime and then she's like "yeah, okay, I'm the bad guy." And like the entire point of the ending of WandaVision was Wanda realizing she screwed up and trying to learn to control her powers so this doesn't happen again and subverting the tropes of powerful women going crazy and falling prey to female stereotypes...only for this to double down on her being an out of control powerful woman who is obsessed with her kids (crazy moms, amirite?). It's like they struggled to come up with a villain for this film so they just defaulted to making it Wanda and blaming the Darkhold so they didn't have to really put more work into it. Even their justifications for it mostly boil down to "well, it happened in the comics" even though it was badly handled in the comics to begin with. The only reason it works as well as it does is because of Elizabeth Olsen's acting.

- Also the same issue in the comics where Wanda is so obsessed with her kids that she barely brings up Vision when WandaVision was as much, if not more, about her love for Vision as it was about her getting kids. I think Elizabeth Olsen had to justify why Vision wasn't in the Variant universe because thinks they got divorced in that timeline, but it just feels like it's devaluing their romance.

The end of Wandavision shows her with the Darkhold and hearing her children's voices. Also, White Vision leaves voluntarily and is around somewhere, while the kids just disappear.

- It's weird that a Dr. Strange film doesn't actually have a Dr. Strange villain in it other than Mordo. Like, Wanda feels like they mixed Umar and Nightmare together, but why not, like, actually use those characters? Well, they might just use Umar since they introduced Clea, but still.

Wanda is villain enough.

- Even as Sorcerer Supreme, Wong still ends up playing sidekick.

I don't get why he was made SS, just like I don't get why Bishop was made Captain Commander, if Strange and Cyclops are clearly playing the roles when things really heat up.

- Their take on America Chavez's origin was more comical than I think they intended it to be. I mean, a bee!? A frikkin bee!? Although her parents are actually alive now, so...good for her?

I don't see the problem, she was just a kid.

- All the stuff with Mordo really feels like it's relying a lot on viewers taking at face-value a lot of stuff happening off-screen like Mordo having an entire character arc or story of becoming comic Baron Mordo and dedicating his life to destroying Dr. Strange so that you really feel the contrast with how happy Variant Mordo was to see Strange or that moment when Strange goads him into playing to type and trying to kill him. And this isn't even taking into account how they were planning to just have Wanda unceremoniously off the main Mordo at the start of the movie. Chiwetel Ejiofor's just trying to do the best that he can with what little they give him to work with.

Apparently, in the original, 40 minutes longer cut, Mordo has a lot more to do...and Wanda kills him.

- Also "Baron Karl Mordo" was on the level of "I'm a Baron, Sam." And yet Strange only notices the "Karl" part. Did he not hear Mordo's first name in the first movie?

This is just nitpicking.

- So is possessed Wanda off the hook for basically murdering the entire Illuminati? I know she was possessed, but still...

Well, she's "dead".

- The Illuminati was so much fanservice that they didn't seem to really think past that sequence with Strange when they fight Wanda. I mean, Reed does nothing other than tell Wanda how to basically kill Black Bolt and the women are the only ones who put up much of a fight.

Agreed.

- Does being Captain Marvel somehow make you smugger and more condescending? Because that seems to be what happened to Maria.

Apart from Xavier, everyone in the Illuminati is a prick, which I suppose is comics accurate.

- They can't even get James Spader to do marginal Ultron lines anymore?

The movie didn't need even more fanservice.

- I have to say, as much as I question Christine Palmer's role in this film, Rachel McAdams looks great with red hair and in that bodysuit.

I don't think she has in her to look remotely bad, unless they use her very, very heavy make up, like Charlize Theron in Monster.

- The Clea mid-credit scene was so abrupt after the prior ending. The Darkhold power starts going crazy in Strange and then suddenly...mid-credit scene he's just walking around normally, gets immediately accosted by Clea, and is off to an adventure in the Dark Dimension like nothing ever happened outside his third eye. Like the mid-credit scene would've been a much better ending but it felt like they needed one big moment to justify their usual mid-credit scene thing. It was just a bit too much for me.

Agreed.

[gurkle]

The end of Wandavision shows her with the Darkhold and hearing her children's voices. Also, White Vision leaves voluntarily and is around somewhere, while the kids just disappear.

We've already been over how the movie contradicts the end of WandaVision (which isn't enough setup anyway) but we don't even know if Wanda is aware White Vision is still around; the point is that in the show, she brings Vision back to life and also creates two kids with him, when she ends the Hex, Vision and the kids disappear... but in the movie suddenly she only cares about being a mother and doesn't care about the man she loves, even though we just saw that her longing to be with him again caused her to snap and accidentally bring him back to life.

It's not even supposed to make sense; she's obsessed with her children because that was her villain motivation, and she doesn't care about Vision because they already did the "Wanda does bad things to bring back Vision" plot.

[MindofShadow]

Darkhold thing was just too abrupt.

Rather it would have been DS + SW teaming up against nightmare or someone in Stranges Rogues.

Slowly show us that the Darkhold may be corrupting Wanda (maybe she uses it to power up against the bad guy) instead and save it for later if they really wanted to go that route.

At this point, can you even say MCU wanda is a hero? She been at best selfish AF and incompetent, at worst straight up evil, in the vast majority of her screen time.

We needed to see more hero Wanda before she went straight up possessed corrupted evil in DS2

[Oberon]

My thoughts on Christine Palmer are that she had probably been contracted to at least appear in one more DS movie.

She's really a worthy actress but the first movie didn't give her much.

I think her variant speaking to Strange later, explaining it all, was a great moment, but again as you suggest

a little forced or something.
From the comics I don't remember too many romances that mattered before Clea, so I suppose this was to distinguish how Strange will come to feel for Clea.

They could have used other Strange characters for a female presence or plot point:

Victoria Bentley, early in DS strip, but ends up being involved or adjacent to Black Knight Dane, remember?

Also Morgana Blessing comes to mind and she's connected to time travel stuff - Rama Tut and Egypt (and therefore the FF and West Coast Avengers)

[Tofali]

Aren't ppl assuming too much about Clea and Strange's future romance?

[Frontier]

He learns to be less controlling and let go of things. Not letting go and wanting to be in control is how he ended up going to sorcery in the first place.

That's kind of what I was getting at.

If they become a couple, he'll get over Christine, doesn't seem that hard to understand.

Assuming we get to see that play out. The MCU track record with romances is spotty at best.

The end of Wandavision shows her with the Darkhold and hearing her children's voices. Also, White Vision leaves voluntarily and is around somewhere, while the kids just disappear.

I think Gurkle responded to this well.

Wanda is villain enough.

I don't think she should be though.

I don't get why he was made SS, just like I don't get why Bishop was made Captain Commander, if Strange and Cyclops are clearly playing the roles when things really heat up.

In-universe it was because Strange was blipped out of the running, because skillset wise he's probably stronger than Wong, although he didn't have the temperament yet until maybe this movie.

I don't see the problem, she was just a kid.

I know, but just all this trauma and craziness in her life because she saw a CGI bee? It just feels kind of funny.

Apparently, in the original, 40 minutes longer cut, Mordo has a lot more to do...and Wanda kills him.

Would've been a big waste of the character.

This is just nitpicking.

It just felt noticeable to me, especially since it's the first time they refer to him as a Baron.

Well, she's "dead".

Didn't the Variant Wanda survive though?

Apart from Xavier, everyone in the Illuminati is a prick, which I suppose is comics accurate.

Reed seemed okay.

The movie didn't need even more fanservice.

True, but it would've just been minor dialogue. I guess we won't be hearing Spader reprise Ultron any time soon.

I don't think she has in her to look remotely bad, unless they use her very, very heavy make up, like Charlize Theron in Monster.

Fair!

Aren't ppl assuming too much about Clea and Strange's future romance?

Why wouldn't they? She's his wife in the comics. He's supposed to be finally getting over Christine. She's literally going by "Clea Strange" in her current comic.

[CTTT]

https://www.cbr.com/kim-kardashian-wants-join-mcu/

No, just no. Keep the Kardashians and their ilk away from the MCU like...really far away. Hope KF/Marvel don't take the bait. She's not an actress. She's a sex tape porn star turned celeb. Casting her in a movie would not just put the MCU's reputation in the crapper but right down the steel plated pipes they've built too.

[John Venus]

Rintrah and Clea felt like the last vestiges of whatever they had originally planned for the movie whilst Wanda, Chavez, the Illuminati and Christine's roles felt like they just shoved into the story.

A lot of problems with MoM has to do with the creators not having watched WV except for a few episodes and not drawing enough from Strange's own lore and even his own first movie.

The jumping off point for MoM was right there at the end of WV: Wanda hears her kids calling for help.

Wanda goes to Strange who doesn't trust her because of the whole Westview thing. Wanda is desperate to help her kids. The two come into conflict until they're side tracked. The spell Strange used to fix the Multiverse 'leaks' in NWH starts to fall apart, Strange tries to fix it without any help but in his arrogance, he fucks up and makes it worse, resulting in an Incursion that allows Shuma Gorath to break into our universe. Strange and Wanda have to find America Chavez in order to fix this mess resulting in a journey across the Multiverse. Chavez is being protected by Clea who is being chased by Umar because Dormammu also wants to break into our reality and also evil versions of Wanda and Strange. Evil Wanda is from a universe where she was never adopted by the Avengers and evil Strange is from a universe where he joined Dormammu's cult. Strange and Wanda have to gain Clea and Chavez's trust while also trying to stop their worst selves and multiple threats to reality. Strange gets a dose of humility and learns to share his burdens with others. Wanda gets quasi redemption by saving the world but people still don't trust her, they fear her and she disappears at the end. Tommy and Billy are in the MCU 616 universe. Clea and Chavez move to 616 where they are trained by Strange and Wong. End tag is Strange being corrupted by the Darkhold.

That said, I think it was ultimately a mistake to try and mash Wanda into Strange's story. They should have done another season of WV or a Scarlet Witch solo movie where Dr Strange can guest star. That way their respect lore's would have had time to breath.

[abhi0009]

Check out this cool post about The MCU Phase 4 on Dr. Strange and Dormammu
dormammmu strange

[Frontier]

Rintrah and Clea felt like the last vestiges of whatever they had originally planned for the movie whilst Wanda, Chavez, the Illuminati and Christine's roles felt like they just shoved into the story.

A lot of problems with MoM has to do with the creators not having watched WV except for a few episodes and not drawing enough from Strange's own lore and even his own first movie.

The jumping off point for MoM was right there at the end of WV: Wanda hears her kids calling for help.

Wanda goes to Strange who doesn't trust her because of the whole Westview thing. Wanda is desperate to help her kids. The two come into conflict until they're side tracked. The spell Strange used to fix the Multiverse 'leaks' in NWH starts to fall apart, Strange tries to fix it without any help but in his arrogance, he fucks up and makes it worse, resulting in an Incursion that allows Shuma Gorath to break into our universe. Strange and Wanda have to find America Chavez in order to fix this mess resulting in a journey across the Multiverse. Chavez is being protected by Clea who is being chased by Umar because Dormammu also wants to break into our reality and also evil versions of Wanda and Strange. Evil Wanda is from a universe where she was never adopted by the Avengers and evil Strange is from a universe where he joined Dormammu's cult. Strange and Wanda have to gain Clea and Chavez's trust while also trying to stop their worst selves and multiple threats to reality. Strange gets a dose of humility and learns to share his burdens with others. Wanda gets quasi redemption by saving the world but people still don't trust her, they fear her and she disappears at the end. Tommy and Billy are in the MCU 616 universe. Clea and Chavez move to 616 where they are trained by Strange and Wong. End tag is Strange being corrupted by the Darkhold.

That said, I think it was ultimately a mistake to try and mash Wanda into Strange's story. They should have done another season of WV or a Scarlet Witch solo movie where Dr Strange can guest star. That way their respect lore's would have had time to breath.

It definitely feels like all the other stuff in the movie kind of took away from it being a Dr. Strange movie even if he was the "lead" character dealing with it all.

[Ascended]

Going back to the Defenders talk; I'd be thrilled to get more of them back, but I'm keeping my expectations at zero. If someone else comes back, awesome. If not, that's fine too.

Except Finn Jones' Iron Fist. I dunno if the guy could have done better if he'd had better material and more time to prepare but think auditioning some folks would be a good idea.

- Wanda turning villain was so abrupt. Like, barely five minutes of screentime and then she's like "yeah, okay, I'm the bad guy."

I don't disagree much. I'm more forgiving of Wanda's arc than some, but that doesn't mean it's the arc I wanted to see. It *does* all fit though. Wandavision doesn't end clean, with Wanda learning the moral of the story. It ends with her learning a few things and owning up to her mistakes, but what does she say right at the end? Family is forever. Right before sitting down to study a book of super evil magic while hearing her kids voices in her head. Oh, and she's just learned that she's a quasi-mythical being of destruction, and this evil spell bible mentions her by name. I'm not saying MoM is where her story should have gone, but did anyone really expect things to go well, with her studying the Darkhold, listening to the twins scream for help?

- So is possessed Wanda off the hook for basically murdering the entire Illuminati? I know she was possessed, but still...

I say she's partially responsible, but there's no denying that the Darkhold pushed her drastically. This isn't the first time Wanda's done something horrible; her basic motivations haven't changed since Age of Ultron; she fights for her family and that's usually the only moral axis she recognizes. She'll accept the greater good eventually (and has paid its price more than most in the MCU), but she's often struggled to get there. MoM is, on some levels, totally on her shoulders because Wanda would always break rules if it got her what she wanted, her path through the multiverse would have happened with or without the Darkhold. But the book is why she carved that path through a mountain of her victims.