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  1. #8881
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    So it would focus on Sam and his father?
    I am not sure about the father but watching the video the nova movie will focus on richard the most and sam will be in it and for the nova show it will focus on sam the most and richard will be in it.
    Last edited by mace11; 01-29-2023 at 10:54 AM.

  2. #8882

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    I'm not a big fan of Sam but I never got into Nova either. So far Miles and Kamala are better handled outside of comics so I'm hoping Sam can follow that trend.

    He'd be a good fit for a Guardians of the Galaxy film.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 01-30-2023 at 11:19 AM.

  3. #8883
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    I'm not a big fan of Sam but I never got into Nova either. So far Miles and Kamala are better handled outside of comics so I'm hoping Sam can follow that trend.

    He'd be a good fit for a Guardians of the Galaxy film.
    As long as he's nothing like he was in the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon.

  4. #8884
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    DC Studios has announced that series such as The Batman, Joker, and Teen Titans Go will be under the "Elseworlds" label. How about Marvel Studios do the same? The upcoming Deadpool/Wolverine movie is basically an Elseworld.

  5. #8885
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    Just watched Wakanda Forever on D+...

    Overall I did enjoy the story...

    But I do still have some issues....

    Riri was not needed in this...I think it was just overkill to have her. She should have been saved for Armor Wars and then spun off into her own series from there.

    The race swap on Namor was just annoying...it basically kept his name and green trunks and "Imperius Rex"...and changed everything else. Not to mention pretty much making him immortal.

    On top of that was that Not-Atlantis has as much (or more) Vibranium as Wakanda. That takes away from Wakanda's uniqueness. I have said in the past that I wanted to see that there was more vibranium on Earth than just the Wakanda Mound. But that was just too much. I could see either chunks that fell to Earth from the Wakanda Mound when it came down or even other meteorite impacts that were smaller...like a cluster of dozens or hundreds of baseball to basketball sized chunks that impacted elsewhere.

    I also wish Ross's storyline was told in a different manner so he did not wind up getting arrested. Just a little different writing could have had him NOT give Shuri and Okoye and information...but know he has to get Riri into protective custody and the Talokan attack the US convoy and the US gets bodycam, dashcam and drone footage of the attack giving them knowledge of the new enemy.

    On the good side...

    I did like Shuri as the new BP and M'Baku as the new King. Overall the cast just killed it. Winston Duke was amazing like last time and that Michael B Jordan scene was was just right...and surprising (I kept away from a lot of spoilers so did not know he was in it). And it makes sense due to Shuri's emotional state.
    Last edited by Chris0013; 02-04-2023 at 08:00 PM.
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  6. #8886
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Just watched Wakanda Forever on D+...

    Overall I did enjoy the story...

    But I do still have some issues....

    Riri was not needed in this...I think it was just overkill to have her. She should have been saved for Armor Wars and then spun off into her own series from there.

    The race swap on Namor was just annoying...it basically kept his name and green trunks and "Imperius Rex"...and changed everything else. Not to mention pretty much making him immortal.

    On top of that was that Not-Atlantis has as much (or more) Vibranium as Wakanda. That takes away from Wakanda's uniqueness. I have said in the past that I wanted to see that there was more vibranium on Earth than just the Wakanda Mound. But that was just too much. I could see either chunks that fell to Earth from the Wakanda Mound when it came down or even other meteorite impacts that were smaller...like a cluster of dozens or hundreds of baseball to basketball sized chunks that impacted elsewhere.

    I also wish Ross's storyline was told in a different manner so he did not wind up getting arrested. Just a little different writing could have had him NOT give Shuri and Okoye and information...but know he has to get Riri into protective custody and the Talokan attack the US convoy and the US gets bodycam, dashcam and drone footage of the attack giving them knowledge of the new enemy.

    On the good side...

    I did like Shuri as the new BP and M'Baku as the new King. Overall the cast just killed it. Winston Duke was amazing like last time and that Michael B Jordan scene was was just right...and surprising (I kept away from a lot of spoilers so did not know he was in it). And it makes sense due to Shuri's emotional state.

    I agree that they could have left Riri out entirely, and I'd have been very happy. And I also LOVED every scene M'Baku was in.

    Why do you want / think Ross should remain CIA? If they had Ross arrested, they clearly did to use him in the future, free of his CIA ties.

    You could just as easily say that making Wakanda a hidden advanced kingdom takes away the from the uniqueness of Atlantis, Marvel's first hidden advanced tech kingdom. We really haven't seen enough of Talokan, but they do appear to use vibranium differently.

    What exactly do you think they changed about Namor for the movie? I was amazed at how much they kept of the character. What race swap are you talking about? There is no Atlantean race in real life. Namor's father is still an air breather and entirely absent from his life.

    He also retains all these comic traits:


    Biracial and torn between two worlds
    Pointy ears
    Water and air breather
    Super strength
    God like durability
    Weakness to dehydration
    Mutant -- arguably even the first of the MCU like the comics
    Ruler of a hidden technologically advanced kingdom
    Flight via ankle wings
    Long life
    Anti-hero
    Hero & protector of his indigenous people fighting against Western expansion

    And most importantly:

    Scene stealing
    Sexy AF personality and looks


    And there were more nods to appearances of comic Namor, like how much the opening intro to Namor with the divers borrowed from his first appearance back in 1939.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  7. #8887
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    I agree that they could have left Riri out entirely, and I'd have been very happy. And I also LOVED every scene M'Baku was in.

    Why do you want / think Ross should remain CIA? If they had Ross arrested, they clearly did to use him in the future, free of his CIA ties.

    You could just as easily say that making Wakanda a hidden advanced kingdom takes away the from the uniqueness of Atlantis, Marvel's first hidden advanced tech kingdom. We really haven't seen enough of Talokan, but they do appear to use vibranium differently.

    What exactly do you think they changed about Namor for the movie? I was amazed at how much they kept of the character. What race swap are you talking about? There is no Atlantean race in real life. Namor's father is still an air breather and entirely absent from his life.

    He also retains all these comic traits:


    Biracial and torn between two worlds
    Pointy ears
    Water and air breather
    Super strength
    God like durability
    Weakness to dehydration
    Mutant -- arguably even the first of the MCU like the comics
    Ruler of a hidden technologically advanced kingdom
    Flight via ankle wings
    Long life
    Anti-hero
    Hero & protector of his indigenous people fighting against Western expansion

    And most importantly:

    Scene stealing
    Sexy AF personality and looks


    And there were more nods to appearances of comic Namor, like how much the opening intro to Namor with the divers borrowed from his first appearance back in 1939.
    In the comics Atlantis does not have its own advanced tech. Anything they have is salvaged from wrecks or built by others. and not until early to mid 20th century did they start making any advances.

    What use could Ross be for them in the US as he is now a traitor and a fugitive??

    They changed the whole race and culture of Atlanteans.
    They are not of meso-american descent.
    They worship Neptune/Poseidon.
    They are always blue and not just when out of water.
    Atlantean's were water breathers for thousands or years before Namor's birth.
    Namor's father is a white man who was on a modern (at the time) ship, Leonard (his dad) and Princess Fen met in the early 20th century.
    Namor was NOT born hundreds of years ago.
    All I wanted was to be unconditionally loved while never having to work on my flaws. Is that so much to ask?

  8. #8888
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    In the comics Atlantis does not have its own advanced tech. Anything they have is salvaged from wrecks or built by others. and not until early to mid 20th century did they start making any advances.
    Where are you getting that? It isn't true. And whoever came up with it not only did what you accused the movie did, changed 80 years of comics that came before it, but also doesn't understand how it follows the same racist tropes of denigrating indigenous cultures as 'primitive' and lacking any tech except what they 'stole' from the West.

    Even in the Golden Age shows them with tons of their own tech that the US wanted to be used in WWII. Silver Age, Kirby and Lee show about how they advanced on different scientific tracks (given you don't have fire underwater) over their history.



    The Atlanteans not only had cloning centuries ago, but they could actually clone humans, and had their own clone wars while the surface world didn't even understand germs, much less cells. Namorita was cloned in WWII using scraps of ship wrecks??? They allegedly had a secret genetics council operating for centuries, though, another retcon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    What use could Ross be for them in the US as he is now a traitor and a fugitive??
    Ross was a traitor before he got caught. I'm not talking about the Wakandans when I said "they." I'm talking about the writers. I'm sure there's plenty of other things they could do with Ross, especially given the reveal of his ex. I suspect he'll have something to do with Thunderbolts or Secret Empire. Possible he'll hook up with Nick Fury. There's other opportunities for him now that he's not limited to the CIA and being under his ex's thumb.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    They changed the whole race and culture of Atlanteans.
    They are not of meso-american descent.
    They worship Neptune/Poseidon.
    They are always blue and not just when out of water.
    Atlantean's were water breathers for thousands or years before Namor's birth.
    Namor's father is a white man who was on a modern (at the time) ship, Leonard (his dad) and Princess Fen met in the early 20th century.
    Namor was NOT born hundreds of years ago.


    That's more like two things about Namor being tossed, which aren't that essential to the character. Does it really matter that Namor was alive during the Civil War instead of just WWII? In both cases, he's outlived most of his contemporaries without aging. It's the MCU and things will changed. Like I said, I'm stunned at how much of the character they kept. My annoyance is with how much the MCU, not Wakanda Forever, had already discarded before the movie was made. They made the decision to erase Namor from his rightful place as the first Marvel, his entire WWII history, his connection to Cap and Bucky, to Hulk, Dr Strange, and the Avengers, etc. -- and don't get me started on 'stealing' the Defenders name. It's much like what they've done to the FF -- so expect changes with them too.

    As for mythical non-existent Atlantis being changed to Mesoamerican -- well, exactly what is intrinsically Atlantean culture to you? It's an entirely made up fictional people and race, which seemingly gets retconned whenever someone actually remembers to reference them? I'm more annoyed that the only thing Marvel comics will do with Atlantis for the last thirty years is destroy the place or use it as prop for other surface world cultures, instead of actually working on creating a viable consistent fictional culture.

    We don't actually know what culture / race the Atlanteans descend from. All we know for sure is that they returned to the sea at some point, and evolved / changed to breath water kind of like whales. There's been several different tellings / retcons. So, genetically they could be Mesoamerican related.

    They've also worshiped dark gods, Set, other minor gods, pre-Greek gods, and who knows what. Neptune is just the newest, and not the only god on the block. They ARE pagans.

    I was disappointed they they went with only blue on the surface, and of oxygen deprivation, which doesn't make sense. Namor should be as different from the Atlanteans as possible. But I guess they had their reasons. Like how close Avatar opened to WF.


    We may be seeing this from different sides of the water glass. Maybe you see it more as half empty. As a long time Namor fan, I'm happy we even got the glass, and thrilled that it was so full of what I see as essential to Namor. Was it exactly everything I wanted? Of course not. I wanted Lee Pace for Namor, but Tenoch Huerta knocked it out of the park in ways that Pace couldn't have, especially given the themes (which do exist in Namor comics) Coogler highlighted. And costume and production design and music made gold, no platinum, with the cultural changes. I mean, comparing those aspects to DCU Aquaman's generic water fantasy with no real cultural roots? It's light years ahead, and far more memorable.
    Last edited by Reviresco; 02-07-2023 at 11:27 AM.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  9. #8889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Where are you getting that? It isn't true. And whoever came up with it not only did what you accused the movie did, changed 80 years of comics that came before it, but also doesn't understand how it follows the same racist tropes of denigrating indigenous cultures as 'primitive' and lacking any tech except what they 'stole' from the West.

    Even in the Golden Age shows them with tons of their own tech that the US wanted to be used in WWII. Silver Age, Kirby and Lee show about how they advanced on different scientific tracks (given you don't have fire underwater) over their history.



    The Atlanteans not only had cloning centuries ago, but they could actually clone humans, and had their own clone wars while the surface world didn't even understand germs, much less cells. Namorita was cloned in WWII using scraps of ship wrecks. They allegedly had a secret genetics council operating for centuries, though, another retcon.




    Ross was a traitor before he got caught. I'm not talking about the Wakandans when I said "they." I'm talking about the writers. I'm sure there's plenty of other things they could do with Ross, especially given the reveal of his ex. I suspect he'll have something to do with Thunderbolts or Secret Empire. Possible he'll hook up with Nick Fury. There's other opportunities for him now that he's not limited to the CIA and being under his ex's thumb.






    That's more like two things about Namor being tossed, which aren't that essential to the character. Does it really matter that Namor was alive during the Civil War instead of just WWII? In both cases, he's outlived most of his contemporaries without aging. It's the MCU and things will changed. Like I said, I'm stunned at how much of the character they kept. My annoyance is with how much the MCU, not Wakanda Forever, had already discarded before the movie was made. They made the decision to erase Namor from his rightful place as the first Marvel, his entire WWII history, his connection to Cap and Bucky, to Hulk, Dr Strange, and the Avengers, etc. -- and don't get me started on 'stealing' the Defenders name. It's much like what they've done to the FF -- so expect changes with them too.

    As for mythical non-existent Atlantis being changed to Mesoamerican -- well, exactly what is intrinsically Atlantean culture to you? It's an entirely made up fictional people and race, which seemingly gets retconned whenever someone actually remembers to reference them? I'm more annoyed that the only thing Marvel comics will do with Atlantis for the last thirty years is destroy the place or use it as prop for other surface world cultures, instead of actually working on creating a viable consistent fictional culture.

    We don't actually know what culture / race the Atlanteans descend from. All we know for sure is that they returned to the sea at some point, and evolved / changed to breath water kind of like whales. There's been several different tellings / retcons. So, genetically they could be Mesoamerican related.

    They've also worshiped dark gods, Set, other minor gods, pre-Greek gods, and who knows what. Neptune is just the newest, and not the only god on the block. They ARE pagans.

    I was disappointed they they went with only blue on the surface, and of oxygen deprivation, which doesn't make sense. Namor should be as different from the Atlanteans as possible. But I guess they had their reasons. Like how close Avatar opened to WF.


    We may be seeing this from different sides of the water glass. Maybe you see it more as half empty. As a long time Namor fan, I'm happy we even got the glass, and thrilled that it was so full of what I see as essential to Namor. Was it exactly everything I wanted? Of course not. I wanted Lee Pace for Namor, but Tenoch Huerta knocked it out of the park in ways that Pace couldn't have, especially given the themes (which do exist in Namor comics) Coogler highlighted. And costume and production design and music made gold, no platinum, with the cultural changes. I mean, comparing those aspects to DCU Aquaman's generic water fantasy with no real cultural roots? It's light years ahead, and far more memorable.
    What they did with Namor would be like the took Storm...Kept the name, powers and personality....but made her a blonde, blue-eyed, white woman from Norway who worshiped Norse deities and believed her powers were a gift from Thor. And instead of saying "Goddess" she would invoke Thor's name.
    All I wanted was to be unconditionally loved while never having to work on my flaws. Is that so much to ask?

  10. #8890
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    Actually, it's not. Because Storm's ethnicity actually exists in real life while being Atlantean isn't. Atlantis is fictional as are it's people. It could be or resemble anything. OTOH, Africa actually exists.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  11. #8891
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Hey, I found out where that crazy take on Atlantean tech came from -- an 80s Marvel Handbook. Dear god, it was truly a hatchet job of an entry and much worse than you said. I've no idea why the author went so far off into his own unsupported headcanon with his article. Thanks for the heads up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    What they did with Namor would be like the took Storm...Kept the name, powers and personality....but made her a blonde, blue-eyed, white woman from Norway who worshiped Norse deities and believed her powers were a gift from Thor. And instead of saying "Goddess" she would invoke Thor's name.
    This is a false equivalency. You are talking about changing Storm from a black woman to a white woman. Namor isn't a white man being changed to a Mesoamerican. Comic Namor is biracial, just like MCU Namor. Both versions are half air breather and half water breather. He is unique amongst his people, not fully belonging to either world.

    Yes, they did change the history and culture of comic Atlantis, but as I said before, it's not like Marvel, or most fans actually know what that is. Or that Marvel has repeatedly retconned that. They falsely believe that Marvel's Atlantis is Greco-Roman, because they presently worship Neptune. But it isn't and never has been. Bill Everett purposefully made Namor a Sub-Mariner, not an Atlantean. It wasn't until the 60s that his home was retconned to Atlantis, and shortly thereafter, Roy Thomas made it part of Robert E. Howard's world, the Atlantis of King Kull and Conan, which predates Greece by two world changing cataclysms. But comic and MCU Atlanteans share the core experience of being hidden indigenous people who were decimated by the appearance of white explorers seeking resources. Both have had to flee homes destroyed by white men.

    But, if you didn't like the adaptation of MCU Namor and his underwater home, then you didn't like it.



    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Actually, it's not. Because Storm's ethnicity actually exists in real life while being Atlantean isn't. Atlantis is fictional as are it's people. It could be or resemble anything. OTOH, Africa actually exists.
    That too.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  12. #8892
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Hey, I found out where that crazy take on Atlantean tech came from -- an 80s Marvel Handbook. Dear god, it was truly a hatchet job of an entry and much worse than you said. I've no idea why the author went so far off into his own unsupported headcanon with his article. Thanks for the heads up.




    This is a false equivalency. You are talking about changing Storm from a black woman to a white woman. Namor isn't a white man being changed to a Mesoamerican. Comic Namor is biracial, just like MCU Namor. Both versions are half air breather and half water breather. He is unique amongst his people, not fully belonging to either world.

    Yes, they did change the history and culture of comic Atlantis, but as I said before, it's not like Marvel, or most fans actually know what that is. Or that Marvel has repeatedly retconned that. They falsely believe that Marvel's Atlantis is Greco-Roman, because they presently worship Neptune. But it isn't and never has been. Bill Everett purposefully made Namor a Sub-Mariner, not an Atlantean. It wasn't until the 60s that his home was retconned to Atlantis, and shortly thereafter, Roy Thomas made it part of Robert E. Howard's world, the Atlantis of King Kull and Conan, which predates Greece by two world changing cataclysms. But comic and MCU Atlanteans share the core experience of being hidden indigenous people who were decimated by the appearance of white explorers seeking resources. Both have had to flee homes destroyed by white men.

    But, if you didn't like the adaptation of MCU Namor and his underwater home, then you didn't like it.





    That too.
    In the movie he is NOT half air breather and half water breather...he shares some origin details with Blade actually. His air breather mother was pregnant with him when she went thru the transformation to water breather and Namor was born able to do both. In the comics he is biracial as half air breather and half water breather...but his father was caucasian and Namor had the appearance of a caucasian.

    It is not a false equivalency at all...All I did was take the 2 things they changed about Namor...his skin color and culture...and applied them to Storm. I kept everything else the same.

    Consider it like the Danny DeVito rule...if you replace an actor with Danny DeVito and the character ia a psycho then he was always a psycho. So if you alter Storm in the same way you are altering another character and it is wrong then it was wrong to do it to the other character.
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  13. #8893
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    I mean, you can consider it that way. But you'd be wrong. Because (again) Africa (not to mention Africans) are real. Atlantis (and Atlanteans) are not. Someone could make Atlanteans purple skinned and five armed and that could still be considered an entirely valid interpretation since that depiction would be every bit as made up as the 616 version.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  14. #8894
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I mean, you can consider it that way. But you'd be wrong. Because (again) Africa (not to mention Africans) are real. Atlantis (and Atlanteans) are not. Someone could make Atlanteans purple skinned and five armed and that could still be considered an entirely valid interpretation since that depiction would be every bit as made up as the 616 version.
    They are all characters who have been portrayed for decades in a specific way. Atlanteans (with few exceptions) are blue. Namor and Namora are portrayed as caucasian because they are the children of an Atlantean/surface dweller unions that involved caucasians from the surface. To have changed them as drastically as you suggested would have been just as bad as what was done with the Deviants in The Eternals movie.
    All I wanted was to be unconditionally loved while never having to work on my flaws. Is that so much to ask?

  15. #8895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    They are all characters who have been portrayed for decades in a specific way. Atlanteans (with few exceptions) are blue. Namor and Namora are portrayed as caucasian because they are the children of an Atlantean/surface dweller unions that involved caucasians from the surface. To have changed them as drastically as you suggested would have been just as bad as what was done with the Deviants in The Eternals movie.
    using this logic Minstrels are the correct way to portray black people because they are all characters who have been portrayed for decades in a specific way

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