Marvel Cinematic Universe Part II

[80sbaby]

The problem is that Marvel (and others) want to lump them all in with that group and ignore any criticism.

That's not what I see. I see Marvel and Star Wars specifically calling out racism/sexism and folks such as yourself ignoring that and claiming they're talking about everyone. No. They're very direct in who they're addressing and covering for those people does nobody any favors.

[Wildling]

Does it even have enough good word of mouth to make a difference?

I don't see it. Elemental got an A Cinemascore compared to the Marvels B one, and its audience demographic split looks dubious. I don't see it faring well against the new Hunger Games next week, and come the following week, Disney's priorities will switch to Wish.

[Panic]

Is everyone watching Loki? Because that finale was huge.

I dunno if I agree with the claims about filler episodes. It's true that a chunk of stuff didn't feel strictly 'necessary' if the goal was to just get us to this point....but without that arc, without Loki spending the season trying to save the TVA and his friends, would he have made this choice? I think the story needed to keep its focus on those personal relationships and the struggle to save the TVA, otherwise nothing that happens in the finale would've felt properly earned. YMMV of course, but I think the season worked.

spoilers:

Loki and the Worlds Tree? One of the most epic things the MCU has ever done, and definitely the biggest swing we've seen from the Thor franchise. Truly that felt like a Norse god, and I love that Loki is, once again, trapped within the roots of a big tree; such a classic punishment for the character and here he is owning it and making it his own. Loved the new costume. Felt more 'viking' than what we normally get, with a touch of Loki's more modern and tattered 'god of stories' looks. The crown was excellent, I love how it resembles He Who Remains' castle; the black stone and its gold cracks. Does that signify anything from the comics? Where does this leave He Who Remains and the Kangs? How does this impact the Incursions we've been hearing about? Can Loki stop the Kangs from starting another multiversal war? Certainly we'll see Loki again but I wonder how this changes the cosmology. Presumably not in any direct way, since it'd be weird to spend all this time building up Incursions only to get rid of the idea here. I'm guessing Loki is just allowing the multiverse to flourish without blowing the TVA to hell. Did Loki successfully outmaneuver HWR, or is this still part of his plan for the sacred timeline? Interesting stuff, lots to chew on. I'm damned satisfied. I wish we had spent time watching him jump through the timelines, learning the science and trying to save the Loom in all those different ways, that'd have been fun, but I enjoyed what we got.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Yes it did give us a lot of what we had been asking for - a smart, powerful Loki who wasn't just a loser, some great god-like mythological touches like the World-Tree/Norn Threads of Fate imagery, and a fate that was both a punishment and a triumph. And as always it looked great - this show has always had a lot on display, and again it delivered. Jonathan Majors was very good, and HWR was a major threat that warranted the great sacrifice we got. It was a good final episode, and it felt like it stuck the landing in a way that most of the other Marvel shows didn't. I do think the show was a lot of style covering for a lack of substance, with the charisma of the leads and some wonderful art direction distracting from a lot of issues with the writing, but it's still one of the better Marvel shows.

end of spoilers

[Ascended]

Does it even have enough good word of mouth to make a difference?

The Marvels? Most of what I've seen has been pretty positive. The negative reviews mostly come from the usual suspects who get pissy if a movie doesn't feature a straight white guy. I'm sure there's less biased reviews out there that're still negative but most of what I'm seeing from viable sources say the film has some flaws (like the villain) but is largely enjoyable and a fun ride.

But it felt like the way they executed it kept making her character step back rather than have a consistent thoroughline and make it come off like Jen only begrudgingly liked She-Hulk (sometimes because the plot needed her too).

Jenn's acceptance of the She-Hulk persona....yeah, it was a little uneven and weird. I can understand her struggling with it, and bouncing around a little as she tries to make peace with her situation, but the show didn't give that internal struggle enough focus to make it feel smooth.

I enjoyed She-Hulk, but I love a good lawyer comedy show (like Boston Legal) so this was right up my alley. But I do think the show had some inconsistencies that didn't need to be there and didn't fuel the actual narrative. I'm still salty that Banner's son was introduced in such a slipshod manner; that didn't do anything to advance Jenn's character and it was tacked on in such a last-second, bullshit kinda way it just made the finale feel even more awkward and half-done, like we missed an episode or something.

I kind of feel like the stuff in the middle of the season where they were trying to figure out solutions was a liiiiiitle spinning their wheels, outside maybe developing OB and Victor Timely.

Also, Sylvie sucks.

Don't disagree; they definitely spun their wheels a bit. But I don't think they went too far overboard. To justify Loki's choice in the finale I think they had to take that time establishing the relationships, and I think they had to show that other efforts to save the TVA failed. It's not a small sacrifice Loki made, and even if they did spin their wheels some, I think what they did helped justify his choices in the end. It could have been done better, sure, but it could've been far worse too.

And Sylvie really does suck. Did not enjoy her at all this season. I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised; she *is* a Loki after all, of course she's going to be selfish and unhelpful. But it feels like a completely different character this season and not in a good way.

[StickMin]

That's not what I see. I see Marvel and Star Wars specifically calling out racism/sexism and folks such as yourself ignoring that and claiming they're talking about everyone. No. They're very direct in who they're addressing and covering for those people does nobody any favors.

Like with Kenobi when Reva's actress was being harassed over her race, and when Lucasfilm and some of the other actors spoke against that, people's first reaction were "you're just deflecting criticism of the series!".

[Dipter]

The group that hates everything about the movie that has NOTHING to do with the script or special effects.

The group that does not understand the concept of watch or read what you like and IGNORE the stuff you don't.

It's not being subjective it's being entitled to demand stuff that only one group approves of should exist.

The people you’re speaking of, the ones who hate women and such, are a very vocal minority with no real power or influence over a movie’s performance or the direction of the franchise. I think the success of the first Captain Marvel film was proof of that. It doesn’t matter how hard they review bomb or how many angry tweets and YouTube videos they make, Disney/Marvel doesn’t listen to them, or most critics for that matter. All they listen to are the numbers of tickets being bought by general audiences.

[80sbaby]

Like with Kenobi when Reva's actress was being harassed over her race, and when Lucasfilm and some of the other actors spoke against that, people's first reaction were "you're just deflecting criticism of the series!".

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Instead of simply saying "F those racist people" and leaving it at that.

[Sutekh]

Don't disagree; they definitely spun their wheels a bit. But I don't think they went too far overboard. To justify Loki's choice in the finale I think they had to take that time establishing the relationships, and I think they had to show that other efforts to save the TVA failed. It's not a small sacrifice Loki made, and even if they did spin their wheels some, I think what they did helped justify his choices in the end. It could have been done better, sure, but it could've been far worse too.

At around the second time Loki sent Timely through I was wondering what was up with that, 'Well, you volunteered...' crap. Ya think if some timey-wimey stuff is tearing up your *mortal*, maybe you should send someone who is *immortal,* Mr. God? (And by 'someone who is immortal,' I, of course, mean Sylvie. I mean, let's be real. You don't send the guy with the time-blipping get-out-of-apocalypse-free card into a no-return scenario!)

And Sylvie really does suck. Did not enjoy her at all this season. I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised; she *is* a Loki after all, of course she's going to be selfish and unhelpful. But it feels like a completely different character this season and not in a good way.

I never liked her, even in the first season when everyone was gaga over her. The old man Loki who faced down the Oblivion? Badass. Worth seventy trillion of her.

Alligator Loki, who did exactly *nothing* useful? Still better than Sylvie, since he didn't *repeatedly screw everything up* and then passive-aggressively grouse and malinger about anyone actually trying to fix what he broke.

He was basically a lizard with a hat, so, clearly her superior in every way.

All that aside, the World Tree imagery at the end was amazing. What a wild way to make MCU Loki 'the god of stories,' holding infinite branching possibilities in his hands...

[Ubauba01]

I think there was a deleted scene in Endgame where he seemed bummed about missing his dads' funeral which...no version of Bruce Banner would ever feel all that bad about .

Hulk was ruined in the MCU.

Albeit it does kinda makes sense when you think about it. Hulk in the MCU is generally an easy going guy. The only time he was truly on the edge was when he was being chased down by the military, which is understandable. Perhaps his personality is a result of him NOT having a rough childhood.

[Frontier]

The Marvels? Most of what I've seen has been pretty positive. The negative reviews mostly come from the usual suspects who get pissy if a movie doesn't feature a straight white guy. I'm sure there's less biased reviews out there that're still negative but most of what I'm seeing from viable sources say the film has some flaws (like the villain) but is largely enjoyable and a fun ride.

I've seen some pretty mixed responses between youtube reviewers, twitter, and the critics.

I know there's definitely critiques from sexist or anti-MCU guys to dismiss, but this seems like there's more to it than just that. But that might just be me and I haven't seen it myself to compare.

Jenn's acceptance of the She-Hulk persona....yeah, it was a little uneven and weird. I can understand her struggling with it, and bouncing around a little as she tries to make peace with her situation, but the show didn't give that internal struggle enough focus to make it feel smooth.

I enjoyed She-Hulk, but I love a good lawyer comedy show (like Boston Legal) so this was right up my alley. But I do think the show had some inconsistencies that didn't need to be there and didn't fuel the actual narrative. I'm still salty that Banner's son was introduced in such a slipshod manner; that didn't do anything to advance Jenn's character and it was tacked on in such a last-second, bullshit kinda way it just made the finale feel even more awkward and half-done, like we missed an episode or something.

She wasn't even portrayed as that good a lawyer .

Also Skaar looked kind of terrible and it's a disservice to Planet Hulk.

Don't disagree; they definitely spun their wheels a bit. But I don't think they went too far overboard. To justify Loki's choice in the finale I think they had to take that time establishing the relationships, and I think they had to show that other efforts to save the TVA failed. It's not a small sacrifice Loki made, and even if they did spin their wheels some, I think what they did helped justify his choices in the end. It could have been done better, sure, but it could've been far worse too.

I think it did more for Mobius' character (and I guess B-15) setting up their arc for the finale. Loki felt like he was mostly reacting to stuff and trying to get Sylvie to listen.

And Sylvie really does suck. Did not enjoy her at all this season. I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised; she *is* a Loki after all, of course she's going to be selfish and unhelpful. But it feels like a completely different character this season and not in a good way.

And she basically gets what she wanted with no consequences or guilt because of Loki's sacrifice, even though she's the one who made a mess of everything. Even if HWR had it coming and she had a really messed up backstory, her blatant disregard for her own accountability/responsibility was glaring.

Albeit it does kinda makes sense when you think about it. Hulk in the MCU is generally an easy going guy. The only time he was truly on the edge was when he was being chased down by the military, which is understandable. Perhaps his personality is a result of him NOT having a rough childhood.

Although we did have that "I'm always angry" moment in Avengers bu they never really did anything with it.

I thought they would explore why Bruce had a different personality with his Hulk form while Jen didn't, but they never explored it.

[Colossus1980]

Does the Marvels have any LGBTQ+ rep? To my knowledge it doesn’t, so idk why that’s even in the conversation. And I don’t really see why women and POC suddenly have the burden to support a movie that never seemed like a “MUST watch immediately!” Marvel film. Movie tickets are expensive and based on

Valkeryie makes a guest appearance. Not sure how much screen time she gets. It would be fantastic if more different demographics supported these movies. I'm pretty disappointed at the LGBTQ for not showing more support for The Flash. It was a decent movie.

[Ascended]

And by 'someone who is immortal,' I, of course, mean Sylvie

I wouldn't trust her to do it, myself. Plus they were pushing the whole 'if something goes wrong a science person must fix it!' angle to justify not using the Asgardians.

I never liked her, even in the first season when everyone was gaga over her. The old man Loki who faced down the Oblivion? Badass. Worth seventy trillion of her.

Old Man Loki was amazing. But I enjoyed Sylvie in the first season.

I've seen some pretty mixed responses between youtube reviewers, twitter, and the critics.

Oh I'm sure. I'm just talking about the reviews I've seen, personally. And I haven't watched the movie yet either, though I really think we might, if not this weekend then next.

Also Skaar looked kind of terrible and it's a disservice to Planet Hulk.

He looked terrible and his introduction was a disservice to Planet Hulk, Banner, Skaar himself, and even Jenn. Really awful, weird ass moment in an otherwise (mostly) fun show. At least they can improve the cgi next time, if/when he returns.

Even if HWR had it coming and she had a really messed up backstory, her blatant disregard for her own accountability/responsibility was glaring.

Loki!

[Chris0013]

Like with Kenobi when Reva's actress was being harassed over her race, and when Lucasfilm and some of the other actors spoke against that, people's first reaction were "you're just deflecting criticism of the series!".

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Instead of simply saying "F those racist people" and leaving it at that.

Maybe you liked her...but Reva was a crap character. It has nothing to do with the actress who played her and everything to do with what the writers put on the paper.

[80sbaby]

Maybe you liked her...but Reva was a crap character. It has nothing to do with the actress who played her and everything to do with what the writers put on the paper.

You're kinda proving our point. Neither of us claimed we liked her. We pointed out how some of the fan base were racist towards her and, instead of condemning that, you decided to complain about the character when that's not the conversation. You completely ignored the actual point, i.e. racism. And the fact is, there were fans who DID make very racist comments toward the actress.

[gurkle]

If Brie Larson really was soured on the MCU by the online abuse she got (as Joanna Robinson has hinted) it's hard to blame her. Words can hurt and it really is harder for a woman. (See also Elizabeth Olsen's online hatedom that claims she's a racist Nazi because of "whitewashing" of a character who has had about eight different canonical parents in the comics, which may have contributed to her getting hounded off Instagram.)

People were blaming Larson for stuff that didn't even end up happening, like people were mad in advance that she was going to show up in Avengers Endgame and steal the spotlight from the established heroes, and of course it turned out she had a very small part in that movie.

That doesn't explain this movie not doing well, of course. In some ways it's probably getting hit by the backlash against other recent MCU projects and their treatment of the characters (Secret Invasion most recently). The first one came out at a time when people were actually looking forward to seeing Nick Fury instead of going "oh, how will they screw him up this time?" (even if they don't).