Just when will DC allow Barry to see just what Flashpoint has cost him ?

[BohemiaDrinker]

Yes, and FLASH: REBIRTH happened at around the same time, which throws a little ambiguity about whether the events of FLASH: REBIRTH or BLACKEST NIGHT took place first.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Rebirth came first from Barry's PoV. From Thawne's, Blackest Night came first.

[BohemiaDrinker]

As a character, he lost 30-40 years worth of a life. It might not have been perfect all the time, but it was still a life and losing it would mean something.

Nah, he lost the crappy bits with a chance of a do-over.

I

[SiegePerilous02]

Nah, he lost the crappy bits with a chance of a do-over.

A "chance" of getting all that stuff back is not the same as actually having those things. Especially when his loved ones are less than thrilled at the results of their life being altered and Barry is a good person who is not gonna look at all this as a bonus while his loved ones are miserable.

I mean yeah Iris didn't get murdered by Thawne, but she got resurrected the first time around anyway and now there is a chance they will never be married again. The possibility of their kids existing again is in doubt. His beloved nephew's life has been torn apart. What did he get out of Flashpoint exactly?

[KC]

Nah, he lost the crappy bits with a chance of a do-over.

I

He also lost a lot of good bits. He lost 30-40 years of his life and there is nothing that can be said that would make losing that much a good thing.

[BohemiaDrinker]

A "chance" of getting all that stuff back is not the same as actually having those things. Especially when his loved ones are less than thrilled at the results of their life being altered and Barry is a good person who is not gonna look at all this as a bonus while his loved ones are miserable.

That's a fair point. But not only it's a DC; Rebirth development (I admit to be looking at Barry's status quo right before and right after the reboot), he still got a new lease in life, with most of the tragedy swept away.

I mean yeah Iris didn't get murdered by Thawne, but she got resurrected the first time around anyway

And they enjoyed only 3 months together before he died...

and now there is a chance they will never be married again

.

Well, that depends on them, though. There was also a chance they would get divorced in previous continuity.

The possibility of their kids existing again is in doubt

Hardly, we've seen them. And Barry never knew his kids pre-Flashpoint anyway.

His beloved nephew's life has been torn apart.

What happened to Wally can hardly be seem as BArry's loss, though. It may affect him, sure, but that is Wally's problem.

What did he get out of Flashpoint exactly?

He is the undisputed Flash, for one. He gets a chance of raising his kids, which he never had. He will not loose a huge chunk of his life, well, dead.

He also lost a lot of good bits. He lost 30-40 years of his life and there is nothing that can be said that would make losing that much a good thing.

He didn't loose 30 to 40 years of life, though. Maybe of continuity. But assuming New52 Barry was 25 (aiming low), and Post Crisis Barry was about 36 (somewhat correct guess), Barry would have lost 11 years. But then, there's the fact that Barry was very dead for about seven or eight of those years, so he would have lost, like, 3 years of life? Being that for one of those years Iris was dead, for another of those he was on trial... I still say he got a sweet deal!

[KC]

He didn't loose 30 to 40 years of life, though. Maybe of continuity. But assuming New52 Barry was 25 (aiming low), and Post Crisis Barry was about 36 (somewhat correct guess), Barry would have lost 11 years. But then, there's the fact that Barry was very dead for about seven or eight of those years, so he would have lost, like, 3 years of life? Being that for one of those years Iris was dead, for another of those he was on trial... I still say he got a sweet deal!

We don't know if his New 52 life up to when he became the Flash and his Pre-new 52 life after Flash: Rebirth was the same. Which means he more than likely did lose 36 years.

And even if they were the same, he still would have lost 8 years worth of life as the Flash before COIE and then another 1-2 years after he came back. Which is still a lot of his life gone.

[SiegePerilous02]

That's a fair point. But not only it's a DC; Rebirth development (I admit to be looking at Barry's status quo right before and right after the reboot), he still got a new lease in life, with most of the tragedy swept away.

Right before the reboot, he had his dead mother and framed father retconned into his history didn't he? And that stuck around into the New 52 and Rebirth.

Well, that depends on them, though. There was also a chance they would get divorced in previous continuity.

Yeah, but they are fictional characters who can't see through the fourth wall and learn that things will probably work out for the best. I'm trade waiting currently and haven't read Flash War, but how happy is Iris with Barry at the moment? I know that her killing Thawne and him keeping secrets from her putting her in that position had her seriously pissed off at him. From their perspective, how bright and certain is their future together?

Hardly, we've seen them. And Barry never knew his kids pre-Flashpoint anyway.

Is the future ever certain in the DC universe, when the rules and its history seemingly change every other week? Does Barry think for certain that things will turn out ok?

What happened to Wally can hardly be seem as BArry's loss, though. It may affect him, sure, but that is Wally's problem.

Wally is his family, so by extension of course it is loss. Not his direct loss obviously, that's Wally's, but a loss. Barry isn't a sociopath, he should see Wally's suffering as also his problem, especially with the guilt of kinda sorta being responsible for Linda having her life altered and the kids being wiped out of existence.

I can't keep track, has DC and/or the fans made up their minds on if Barry definitively fucked everything up or not? From what I gather from Flash War spoilers, Wally seems to blame Barry for it at least in part/initially. The friction and people being pissed at Barry, as well as the out of universe fact that a big chunk of the fanbase is making Barry the scapegoat for DC's treatment of Wally, doesn't seem to point to Barry getting the best deal. Better than Wally, but that's not saying much.

He is the undisputed Flash, for one.

As a person, does Barry care about such a thing? I know fans do as we endlessly discuss it, but are you just projecting the "Who is the True Flash?" debates onto Barry's character?

Did he declare in Flash War that he was happy he was the main Flash again and Wally wasn't and that he got a better deal than his nephew, whose life is fucked up now?

[Buried Alien]

He appears to have lost his comics geekery, which is a tragic loss indeed.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[SiegePerilous02]

He appears to have lost his comics geekery, which is a tragic loss indeed.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Indeed, the greatest loss of them all

It is a fate worse than death.

[Rend20]

I'm trade waiting currently and haven't read Flash War, but how happy is Iris with Barry at the moment? I know that her killing Thawne and him keeping secrets from her putting her in that position had her seriously pissed off at him. From their perspective, how bright and certain is their future together?

Pretty bright.

I can't keep track, has DC and/or the fans made up their minds on if Barry definitively fucked everything up or not?

Sort of? His actions have almost always been painted as being wrong in-universe. At least he certainly seems to share the blame for everything. I think he certainly got screwed by the logic behind everything, but that's an entirely different discussion.

As a person, does Barry care about such a thing?

The Grodd arc implied that Barry truly thinks he's the only speedster really capable of doing anything on some level.

[SiegePerilous02]

They're together, and Barry recently moved into Iris' place.

Well that's something I guess, though it still seems a long way from a sure thing compared to the marriage and history they had before.

The Grodd arc implied that Barry truly thinks he's the only speedster really capable of doing anything on some level.

Well that's interesting and certainly changes things a bit. But considering how heated the fan wars have been, I'm tempted to think they put those ideas in Barry's head just so they could do their meta commentary with Wally being definitively faster and give the middle finger to the whole "Barry is the One True Flash" thing.

Which is just another way of projecting fandom debates onto the character.

[Rend20]

Well that's something I guess, though it still seems a long way from a sure thing compared to the marriage and history they had before.

Iris also remembers some vital parts of their Pre-Flashpoint life together.

Well that's interesting and certainly changes things a bit. But considering how heated the fan wars have been, I'm tempted to think they put those ideas in Barry's head just so they could do their meta commentary with Wally being definitively faster and give the middle finger to the whole "Barry is the One True Flash" thing.

Perhaps. But Williamson has already made it pretty clear Barry will become the fastest again shortly.

[MajorHoy]

I can't keep track, has DC and/or the fans made up their minds on if Barry definitively fucked everything up or not? From what I gather from Flash War spoilers, Wally seems to blame Barry for it at least in part/initially. The friction and people being pissed at Barry, as well as the out of universe fact that a big chunk of the fanbase is making Barry the scapegoat for DC's treatment of Wally, doesn't seem to point to Barry getting the best deal. Better than Wally, but that's not saying much.

Sort of? His actions have almost always been painted as being wrong in-universe. At least he certainly seems to share the blame for everything. I think he certainly got screwed by the logic behind everything, but that's an entirely different discussion.

This is why I start complaining about the over-reaction of some fans.

Barry didn't cause these problems; Thawne changed the past and that was the start of it. If Thawne hadn't gone back in time and prematurely killed Barry's mother when Barry was younger, none of this would have happened in the first place (unless Geoff Johns developed some other convoluted, cockamamie reason for Flashpoint to still happen).

I'll never understand this obsession with a blaming a fictional character for a real, flesh-and-blood person's bad writing choices.

[The Darknight Detective]

This is why I start complaining about the over-reaction of some fans.

Barry didn't cause these problems; Thawne changed the past and that was the start of it. If Thawne hadn't gone back in time and prematurely killed Barry's mother when Barry was younger, none of this would have happened in the first place (unless Geoff Johns developed some other convoluted, cockamamie reason for Flashpoint to still happen).

I'll never understand this obsession with a blaming a fictional character for a real, flesh-and-blood person's bad writing choices.

Which begs the question: is there one comic book that shows Barry being informed that changing the timeline, ether back to what it was originally as in this case or to a new past, would mess things up pre-Flashpoint? If no one can point to a story, then the "Barry is guilty" talking point needs to be buried with a stake through its heart.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Which begs the question: is there one comic book that shows Barry being informed that changing the timeline, ether back to what it was originally as in this case or to a new past, would mess things up pre-Flashpoint? If no one can point to a story, then the "Barry is guilty" talking point needs to be buried with a stake through its heart.

Flash Rebirth states that the past can't be changed, but Thawne can because of the negative speed force.

That said, the "Barry is guilty" thing sure has to be put to rest: I'm with Major Hoy on this one.