Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Agent Z]

I think George Perez's redemption of Hercules, followed by the demigod's pledging his strength to the Amazons, was VERY Marstonian, ..and that used to be a lauded thing, in our fan community - that 'conquering war with love' thing.

Yeah, because a lot of people realized how outdated much of Marston’s writing and views are. Forgiveness and redemption and who actually deserves it are nowhere near as simplistic as what Marston or Perez wrote. Why this obsession with making everything a homage to Marston? Superman and Batman fans have largely moved on from what those characters’ creators did.

Why Hercules? He is one of the few heroic males in the WW comic, who isn't a eunuch.

1. You really do not know what this word means.
2. This is a stupid reason to make Heracles a good guy. If your argument is that “this character is as macho as I feel a real man should be”, you aren’t just shallow, you are failing as a WW fan.

Unlike Steve and Nemesis, his masculinity, sullied as it is, is shaped by his own individual code of ethics

Contrary to what Mel Dyer believes, not every male character in WW is a good guy because they want to win Diana’s favor.

Again, I think we are being very selective, when Diana treating Cheetah and Circe, both mass-murderers of mortals and Amazons, with compassion, goes without controversy, ..

It doesn’t. You’re the one being selective.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, because a lot of people realized how outdated much of Marston’s writing and views are. Forgiveness and redemption and who actually deserves it are nowhere near as simplistic as what Marston or Perez wrote. Why this obsession with making everything a homage to Marston? Superman and Batman fans have largely moved on from what those characters’ creators did.

Largely because unlike Superman and Batman, Wonder Woman doesn't have a lot of good stuff after Marston. In her 80 years of existence, there are only like 2-3 other definitive runs (Perez, Rucka and maybe Jimenez) and a WHOLE bunch of mediocre or outright bad comics. Plus unfortunately, very little other media precense that utilizes her stuff well. And even those three runs share some ideas with Marston or build off stuff he established in their way. And as weird as they are, warts and all, the Golden Age Wonder Woman comics had more thought put into them than Batman or Superman, who mostly came together in the Silver Age and beyond.

Though I think moving on from the core ideas of Golden Age Superman completely is hardly great for that character either.

[kjn]

Pretty much what SiegePerilous02 said. The Golden Age Wonder Woman was a lot more interesting and, if I may say so, radical character than she later developed into.

I don't necessarily want a return to Marston—he was very much a crank, and a lot of his ideas are outdated or even dangerous—but I really wish that her current writers sat down and seriously tried to engage with and enter into a conversation with Marston's original runs. Look at how modern queer theory would fit with the Amazon society, especially those about trans rights. Attempt to do a feminist reimagining of Greek mythology and early civilisation—Pérez already did some of that, though his attempts are clearly dated by now. Try to look into aspects of our society that Diana would want to change, and how she would act as a leader. Look into ideas like "loving authority"—what does it mean, and how does one find it? Try to bring back some of the radical sexuality, while still keeping it kid-friendly.

I think the persistent fear to engage with these core ideas of Wonder Woman has neutered the character, and also caused all the flipflopping in her characterisation, because every writer realises that there are important pieces of her missing. They desperately try to fill that hole, but since they can't or won't get to the kinky and radical pieces, we just get ill-fitting pieces. Or a scarecrow Marston, like Azzarello or Morrison did.

[Ascended]

I'd also question how far Batman has truly moved on from his original version. The details are obviously different, Bruce doesn't use guns, etc etc., and the Batgod didn't exist then, but I think modern Batman is very much a clear evolution of the original Golden Age. The silly Adam West style stuff of the 50's and 60's was a departure, but I think modern Bats is much in the same shape as he was in 1939.

Superman changing so much from his Golden Age version likely hasn't been a positive thing in the long run.

As for Di, like others have said she doesn't have much else that's truly worthwhile. Almost every version of her since Marston left has been missing something. Returning to a Golden Age sensibility would just be putting her back together. The problem there is that so few writers could pull it off even halfway well, and everyone is so f*cking sensitive about their opinions now, no matter how good it was people would still bitch and moan.

[Nyssane]

Seriously, stop using the word "eunuch."

[CRaymond]

Seriously, stop using the word "eunuch."

Seconded. I try to give Mel space with his unconventional tastes and perspective, but using THAT word in THAT context suggests he has an archaic view of gender and stereotypes.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'd also question how far Batman has truly moved on from his original version. The details are obviously different, Bruce doesn't use guns, etc etc., and the Batgod didn't exist then, but I think modern Batman is very much a clear evolution of the original Golden Age. The silly Adam West style stuff of the 50's and 60's was a departure, but I think modern Bats is much in the same shape as he was in 1939.

Superman changing so much from his Golden Age version likely hasn't been a positive thing in the long run.

As for Di, like others have said she doesn't have much else that's truly worthwhile. Almost every version of her since Marston left has been missing something. Returning to a Golden Age sensibility would just be putting her back together. The problem there is that so few writers could pull it off even halfway well, and everyone is so f*cking sensitive about their opinions now, no matter how good it was people would still bitch and moan.

Preach on all of this.

Though with Batman, I think he was distilled to near perfection in the 70s. Not too dark, and not too light like the 50s and 60s, but could slide into either tone and back pretty easily.

With both Clark and Diana, when readers are reminded of the old stuff they react negatively, and I definitely think that's bad for Clark. Diana is a little more of a mixed bag because it could be done so badly, but still. A lot of the resistance comes from just not wanting the later developments to go away regardless of how effective the throwbacks are of even if it's good for the characters or not.

[Tzigone]

I'd also question how far Batman has truly moved on from his original version. The details are obviously different, Bruce doesn't use guns, etc etc., and the Batgod didn't exist then, but I think modern Batman is very much a clear evolution of the original Golden Age. The silly Adam West style stuff of the 50's and 60's was a departure, but I think modern Bats is much in the same shape as he was in 1939.

I disagree. In particular, I find it very fundamental to modern Bruce Wayne that he is very screwed up emotionally. Original Bruce wasn't. Sure, he wore a costume and fought crime, but that was never depicted as the psychological issue it would be in the real world. I also think that back then, he was more of a detective than he is now. And I just can't hand-wave the BatGodness. Though I think it's not really so applicable to the character when he mostly existed in a world apart from other heroes (I know he was technically a member of the JSA, but that was done differently and hadn't happened yet in 1939, anyway).

[Zahina]

Yeah, in Wonder Woman Vol 1 #105 Kanigher rewrites the origin story of the Amazons and one of the changes is that WW is gifted her power by the Greek pantheon, including Hercules. Its also the first story that suggests Wonder Woman is thousands of years old and that she has a biological father named Theo. All and all, its a good story even if I dislike certain changes made by Kanigher.

So Wonder Woman wasn't born out of clay and had a human father in the Silver Age?

[Pinsir]

So Wonder Woman wasn't born out of clay and had a human father in the Silver Age?

Yeah, it's some strange lore that has kind of been forgotten, I mean Theno doesn't even have a Comicvine page (His name is Theno btw, not Theo, I erred in my recall). The only other story that I noted that mentions Theno is the story The Last Day of the Amazons (Wonder Woman v1 #149) in which Hippolyta accidently revives her long dead husband which invokes the wraith of the gods.

I don't recall any Bronze age story revoking Kanigher's reboot so I think that means this would have been canon until Perez. As an origin story I think its pretty good. I do prefer the clay origin but I think that story tends to lead to the thinking that Wonder Woman is the way she is because she is free from male taint, which, is anti-feminist. We don't really get much detail about Theno in the comic, but he is said to have died fighting in a war defending and loved Hippolyta (That's another Kanigher change btw, the Amazons aren't a tribe of women, but a tribe whose male members all died in a war). It's a much better story than Wonder Woman is a love child between Hippo and Hades/Zeus.

[Mel Dyer]

Yeah, because a lot of people realized how outdated much of Marston’s writing and views are. Forgiveness and redemption and who actually deserves it are nowhere near as simplistic as what Marston or Perez wrote. Why this obsession with making everything a homage to Marston? Superman and Batman fans have largely moved on from what those characters’ creators did.




1. You really do not know what this word means.
2. This is a stupid reason to make Heracles a good guy. If your argument is that “this character is as macho as I feel a real man should be”, you aren’t just shallow, you are failing as a WW fan.


Contrary to what Mel Dyer believes, not every male character in WW is a good guy because they want to win Diana’s favor.


It doesn’t. You’re the one being selective.

No, you don't get to call another postor's POV "stupid" or tell me that I "don't know what that word (for subordinate male) means", ..or that I'm " failing as a WW fan". No you don't get to attack my comments, with profane or otherwise offensive responses...

Unacceptable.

Nysanne politely asked me to stop using an archaic word that made her uncomfortable. I am happy to do that, but will continue to support fellow postors' freedom to express their views, especially the controversial stuff, when and in a fashion that it's appropriate to do so. I will expect other postor's to do the same.

Manakel shared some views about how male characters, like Perez's heroic Hercules, are treated, by creators, in the pages of WW. We don't need to prosecute the misandry thing to death, ..but, I agree with much of what Manakel posted and encourage him to continue to share.

I think we share the desires of other fans to see Diana's stories told on a larger stage.

It seems creators aren't interested in growing the Wonderverse from the inside out, but are fine with perpetually borrowing characters from other universes to do the job. If that means bringing in more superhuman male allies, who can be incorporated into the ongoing narrative, even temporarily...fine. I don't like that, but suppose it's something we have to get used to, as long-time readers.

[marhawkman]

To be fair, it was implied that Heracles was in a mad fewer induced by Hera when he did what he did.

Which is something from the myths. Hercules had all kinds of bad stuff happen to him and those he loved. :/

[Koriand'r]

No, you don't get to call another postor's POV "stupid" or tell me that I "don't know what that word (for subordinate male) means", ..or that I'm " failing as a WW fan". No you don't get to attack my comments, with profane or otherwise offensive responses...

Unacceptable.

I concur, that was uncalled for. We can all disagree without being disagreeable.

[Agent Z]

I don't know if the Marston model really can be done in the modern context. I also feel the post Marston works are being rather downplayed. Just because DC is quick to roll back on developments that deviated from the original doesn't mean they aren't worth keeping around.While there is a lot of bad stuff post Marston how much of that is DC not letting it properly develop vs it being bad because it wasn't by Marston or following his model? We've heard plenty of stories about editors screwing things up when it comes to this books.

Perhaps the issue was always going full tilt when it comes to Marston. There are some, a lot I'd admit, of good ideas in his work that can be used but I don't know if all of it at a time can be done if you understand what I mean.

[Manakel]

Manakel shared some views about how male characters, like Perez's heroic Hercules, are treated, by creators, in the pages of WW. We don't need to prosecute the misandry thing to death, ..but, I agree with much of what Manakel posted and encourage him to continue to share.

To be fair, it's not just about Heracles. The recent Warbringer was also a pain to read because of the way it handled the male heroes. And yet nothing about Atalanta. Curious isn't it ?