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  1. #4861
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    She needs to be faster in combat and have better reflexes, or the skill advantage becomes moot without Karate Kid-like shenanigans. If he is a 10 and she a 9.5 in strength, and he can bench press a planet, she need to be able to bench press a planet too just with more difficulty. And them being equally powerful, don't means they must have the exact same stats in any way, just that the core stats must even each other out and the magical gear or kryptonian abilities are just put on top of that.

    If both are in a struggle of strength, he would at best slowly gain the upper-hand and Wonder Woman would kick him and open up the struggle, is a simplistic description of the concept of equally powerful without the exact same strength. If she attacks him with a weapon, he uses heat vision to gain distance, and she deflects the heat vision, and so on.

    But the biggest problem is how much DC and WB have poisoned the well already, it might be at this point impossible to truly start with portraying them as true equals, without Wonder Woman just winning a couple of fights at first.

    I entirely agree, Diana can do most anything Clark does physically. The difference should almost never come up, and if it does, it shouldn't be treated like he's far-and-away her superior in that category. It's why I said 9.5 instead of 10. He just lifts easier. Her having greater reaction speed tracks. I don't see why a trained combatant like Diana is ever going to match Clark in that quality rather than just simply surpass him.

    Even though i get what you are trying to say and don't disagree with it, Wonder Woman's reason is more important, because it is a core concept that truly exists. Superman was never created to be the strongest, most powerful, or anything like that superhero in the room, that interpretation is just fanon invented by his fans much later on, his core concept never even involved such comparisons. And many of the other superheroes in DC including Wonder Woman could not be spin-off of Superman, because they were not even published by the same company until 1946 for most and far later for Shazam.
    Clark definitely was created to be his world's strongest creature. He was a bulletproof super strong man who could leap tall buildings and outrun trains when his only comparison was the physical world. The only reason he's not specifically stated to be stronger than other superheroes is they didn't exist. You don't really start talking about chickens and eggs if there have never been a chicken or egg before the first chicken, you know?

    Fundamentally, I do agree that because Diana was created to be women's seat at the superhero table as equals, she should always be Clark's equal. I don't see that as just saying carbon copy, however. They should have key differences but ones that put them shoulder-to-shoulder with one another. She's inherently more important than other people created in reaction to him like Captain Marvel (now Shazam) strictly because she came from the need to give a disenfranchised subset of the audience their hero.

    But trying to hold one character's reason for existing over others and playing favorites doesn't make for good stewarding of a shared universe. They need to coexist. Too often, fans will argue why their hero is the bestest and should be able to stomp anyone or it's bullshit/nepotism/sexism what have you and I don't agree. That isn't to say those don't happen, we've seen that they categorically do, but it can also be hard to remember that each one of these characters is a protagonist and as such they have plot armor when is necessary and thus hand out or get wins they probably shouldn't.

    Diana getting one-shot will always be a mix of shitty writing, poor editing and likely some sexism, but that last one I reserve judgment for simply because it's a very damning claim to throw simply because someone doesn't understand the powerset of a character that DC flip flops on every week and traditionally treated like shit.


    That is Wonder Woman on paper, but like you say, without a truly competent editorial and a company that is even trying to keep her consistent it is just moot.
    She is and likely always will be DC's most mismanaged IP. Hell, for fear of pissing off China, she was hidden on all their Pride stuff despite being their highest profile queer character. Not a very cash-money move, and certainly not a Wonder Woman one.


    The Spectre is an odd comparison for this, because even with all his jobbing i don't think i have ever heard or seen anyone saying Superman would be stronger let alone more powerful, at worst they did not knew the Spectre even exists.
    He's the only one I recall who truly humbled the Silver Age Superman, which is already a ridiculously strong incarnation of the character which I'd argue is terrible for a shared universe (but fun if you're a child who likes to read silly adventures, but my argument for a lot of things changes if we're just going by the metric of "is it goofy fun?"). I bring him up as an example of how all the power in the universe doesn't mean shit unless you have editorial backing you. This guy humbled silver age Supreman and fought the Anti-Monitor to a draw, seemingly even winning by the metric that Spectre himself cared for.

    He mostly shows up to get shit on and then leave having done what he came for. In fact, he just got one-shot by Darkseid despite essentially being the infinite wrath of the Presence. The Spectre, when he had his own book, fought Arch Angel Michael to standstill for a period, but sure Darkseid one-shots him for a lark. Why? Because editorial sees him simply as a pin to knock down to build up their boy Darkseid.

    That's the power of editorial. Superman, Wonder Woman, the Spectre, it doesn't much matter; without an editor in your pocket, you don't mean much. Clark usually has one, and while they must kiss the Batring, he still has an editor. Diana didn't forever, and now she has one who is herself a woman and my god that's a fresh change. I can only hope she gets enough respect to actually protect Diana instead of being a figurehead.

    We've got a great run, lots of spin-off projects and Diana will be headlining a crossover for the second time in a decade, though this will be the first that isn't just a Batman event she's in front of. Things are looking up.


    DC's portrayal of Superman and Wonder Woman definitively often bordered on or was sexism, but i also don't think Tom Taylor as example is a sexist, other writers possible or probably were but that is a case by case evaluation.
    My argument is more that DC in general has a bad track record with their female heroes, not specifically Diana. Taylor wrote the biggest boneheaded shit, but I can't really see him as a sexist when he does very well for other female characters when given the opportunity and from the opinion of every woman he's worked with. He's easily her worst writer, much like Geoff Johns, but I think his poor understanding of Diana has less to do with some belief women are lesser and more a byproduct of having read her powerset rising and falling like the tide every Wednesday.

    At absolute worst, he's simply ignorant that his bad read on her is the result of sexist writing of the character being the source material, but he needs to wake the fuck up on that or simply stop writing her... Which will never happen so long as everyone praises every book he touches. With luck, Dark Knights of Steel will be his redemption for Diana despite the name essentially implying it's a book about the World's Finest in a fantasy setting.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  2. #4862
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I entirely agree, Diana can do most anything Clark does physically. The difference should almost never come up, and if it does, it shouldn't be treated like he's far-and-away her superior in that category. It's why I said 9.5 instead of 10. He just lifts easier. Her having greater reaction speed tracks. I don't see why a trained combatant like Diana is ever going to match Clark in that quality rather than just simply surpass him.



    Clark definitely was created to be his world's strongest creature. He was a bulletproof super strong man who could leap tall buildings and outrun trains when his only comparison was the physical world. The only reason he's not specifically stated to be stronger than other superheroes is they didn't exist. You don't really start talking about chickens and eggs if there have never been a chicken or egg before the first chicken, you know?

    Fundamentally, I do agree that because Diana was created to be women's seat at the superhero table as equals, she should always be Clark's equal. I don't see that as just saying carbon copy, however. They should have key differences but ones that put them shoulder-to-shoulder with one another. She's inherently more important than other people created in reaction to him like Captain Marvel (now Shazam) strictly because she came from the need to give a disenfranchised subset of the audience their hero.

    But trying to hold one character's reason for existing over others and playing favorites doesn't make for good stewarding of a shared universe. They need to coexist. Too often, fans will argue why their hero is the bestest and should be able to stomp anyone or it's bullshit/nepotism/sexism what have you and I don't agree. That isn't to say those don't happen, we've seen that they categorically do, but it can also be hard to remember that each one of these characters is a protagonist and as such they have plot armor when is necessary and thus hand out or get wins they probably shouldn't.

    Diana getting one-shot will always be a mix of shitty writing, poor editing and likely some sexism, but that last one I reserve judgment for simply because it's a very damning claim to throw simply because someone doesn't understand the powerset of a character that DC flip flops on every week and traditionally treated like shit.



    She is and likely always will be DC's most mismanaged IP. Hell, for fear of pissing off China, she was hidden on all their Pride stuff despite being their highest profile queer character. Not a very cash-money move, and certainly not a Wonder Woman one.



    He's the only one I recall who truly humbled the Silver Age Superman, which is already a ridiculously strong incarnation of the character which I'd argue is terrible for a shared universe (but fun if you're a child who likes to read silly adventures, but my argument for a lot of things changes if we're just going by the metric of "is it goofy fun?"). I bring him up as an example of how all the power in the universe doesn't mean shit unless you have editorial backing you. This guy humbled silver age Supreman and fought the Anti-Monitor to a draw, seemingly even winning by the metric that Spectre himself cared for.

    He mostly shows up to get shit on and then leave having done what he came for. In fact, he just got one-shot by Darkseid despite essentially being the infinite wrath of the Presence. The Spectre, when he had his own book, fought Arch Angel Michael to standstill for a period, but sure Darkseid one-shots him for a lark. Why? Because editorial sees him simply as a pin to knock down to build up their boy Darkseid.

    That's the power of editorial. Superman, Wonder Woman, the Spectre, it doesn't much matter; without an editor in your pocket, you don't mean much. Clark usually has one, and while they must kiss the Batring, he still has an editor. Diana didn't forever, and now she has one who is herself a woman and my god that's a fresh change. I can only hope she gets enough respect to actually protect Diana instead of being a figurehead.

    We've got a great run, lots of spin-off projects and Diana will be headlining a crossover for the second time in a decade, though this will be the first that isn't just a Batman event she's in front of. Things are looking up.



    My argument is more that DC in general has a bad track record with their female heroes, not specifically Diana. Taylor wrote the biggest boneheaded shit, but I can't really see him as a sexist when he does very well for other female characters when given the opportunity and from the opinion of every woman he's worked with. He's easily her worst writer, much like Geoff Johns, but I think his poor understanding of Diana has less to do with some belief women are lesser and more a byproduct of having read her powerset rising and falling like the tide every Wednesday.

    At absolute worst, he's simply ignorant that his bad read on her is the result of sexist writing of the character being the source material, but he needs to wake the fuck up on that or simply stop writing her... Which will never happen so long as everyone praises every book he touches. With luck, Dark Knights of Steel will be his redemption for Diana despite the name essentially implying it's a book about the World's Finest in a fantasy setting.
    The truth is in the pudding. We can all say WW getting one shotted or easily overpowered by SM shouldn't happen. But it is 100% realistic because sadly, that's what DC has made canon in most of their battles. He easily overpowers her and or kills her in 1-2 hits. I hate this. But how can i deny it when DC has made it happen so many times? And they still make it happen. Dceased, injustice, justice league etc are all recent. Other characters like shazam and MMH have been compared to SM a lot, and have had less humiliating moments against him than WW. So yes, for me sexism is a big reason for that. How could anybody deny it? Do you honestly look at WW's performances of power and her battle trackrecord against SM and other big opponents and think yea she is on that level? When was the last time she performed on a comparable level? While he still gets to perform planetary feats. She is here struggling to lift a boat and not being able to survive big explosions like MMA and of course SM can. Other female characters getting bad treatment is not an excuse. WW is the face of girl power and feminism in comics. The type of treatment she gets has no excuse. And it proves comics don't really support equality. They use feminism image to sell. But they don't really put their money where their mouth is.

  3. #4863
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Perils of living in a shared universe but being created independently, everyone's gonna lose out on something.

    I guess you could say since Marston intentionally created WW to be a female response to Superman that creates different issues of say "who should be faster" like when it comes to Flash and Superman (Flash btw) but I wouldn't say it's exclusive to her. DC's always been pretty poor caretakers of the Captain Marvel IP since the most consistent thing they seem to want to use him is for Superman (a grown man) to fight a twelve-year old.
    The problem I see is the core concept of "the #1 best" being part of a character concept. That's where stuff goes horribly wrong. It limits the story writing options... of the entire fictional universe.

  4. #4864
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman;5778911[B
    ]The problem I see is the core concept of "the #1 best" being part of a character concept. That's where stuff goes horribly wrong. It limits the story writing options... of the entire fictional universe.[/B]
    I don't see why. Nobody is saying WW or any character should be unstoppable. I'm just saying that WW being easily overpowered by SM is not a good look for DC when they love to use the girl power, feminist equality icon so much.

  5. #4865
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman has to be able to make mistakes.

  6. #4866
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Wonder Woman has to be able to make mistakes.
    That's true of any character, protagonist or otherwise.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  7. #4867
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Yeah, but I'm talking about major mistakes. Morally questionable ones.

  8. #4868
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Yeah, but I'm talking about major mistakes. Morally questionable ones.
    No she doesn't. She has made plenty in different stories. Only to give Batman and Superman the higher moral ground. The trend of eveyrone have a sob backstory is tired. What the hell are writers trying to tell people? That being happy and without problems makes you less worthy of having a goal in life? That it's okay to be a lunatic murderer because of a booo-hoo story? WW is a breeze of fresh air in a comic world, where it seems to be mandatory to have big traumas or feel miserable to be a "good" or "interesting" hero. Not everybody needs to suffer through hell to find a purpose in life, or to have a desire to fight for those who can't fight for themselves. Wonder Woman giving up an easy life on paradise to go to an strange world to try and make a difference is very inspirational in my opinion. Let heroes be good because they were raised with love and taught that hope is the way to go. And villains to be just evil for the lols. For example Terra from Titans was so randombly evil, and now she's got this dumbass sad background story, trying to force tragedy into her.

  9. #4869
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Yeah, but I'm talking about major mistakes. Morally questionable ones.
    That depends. She's allowed to make mistakes, but some go beyond actual mistakes and more like editorial hit pieces, like Strange Adventures. Mistakes I'm fine with, out-of-character shitshows (like being a shitty mom because --GASP-- she had a son) I will not forgive.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  10. #4870
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Yeah, pretty sure you're both getting carried away. We're talking about entirely different things here, clearly.

  11. #4871
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Why do people like Donna? Serious question. I like Diana obviously, Cassie because of PAD YJ, Johns TT, and Adventure Comics, Artemis because she’s the anti-Diana basically, and Yara because she’s funny but also is the pop culture perception of Diana in a way that works, but I don’t really get why people care about Donna given what an utter mess she seems to be. Is it just NTT nostalgia?
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  12. #4872
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Why do people like Donna? Serious question. I like Diana obviously, Cassie because of PAD YJ, Johns TT, and Adventure Comics, Artemis because she’s the anti-Diana basically, and Yara because she’s funny but also is the pop culture perception of Diana in a way that works, but I don’t really get why people care about Donna given what an utter mess she seems to be. Is it just NTT nostalgia?
    Heh, Cassie’s been the one I’ve always never really “got” since I’ve never read YJ and her main thing seems to being the girlfriend for whoever her Bat or Super equivalent is.

    Though I would slightly disagree in that I think Artemis is closer to the pop culture perception of what Diana is.

  13. #4873
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Why do people like Donna? Serious question. I like Diana obviously, Cassie because of PAD YJ, Johns TT, and Adventure Comics, Artemis because she’s the anti-Diana basically, and Yara because she’s funny but also is the pop culture perception of Diana in a way that works, but I don’t really get why people care about Donna given what an utter mess she seems to be. Is it just NTT nostalgia?
    It is entirely down to NTT nostalgia.

    And it's understandable, because that's when Donna was the only Wonder Girl. And while she's never completely made sense as a character, she was as close as she was going to get at that time with a simple (for her) origin and great relationships. She really was one of the best written members of the cast along with Dick and Vic. She's not the most complex character, but she worked really well in that team setting with others to bounce off of. However, she's a simple character that now has a lot of nonsensical baggage thrown on her. Wonder Woman herself has a lot of nonsense, but she's worth untangling it for because she's an inherently great concept/icon/character. I can see why people wouldn't feel the effort for doing it for Donna would be worth it because she didn't stand out as a very deep character before that stuff was added onto her.

    As it stands, she never has been the Dick Grayson of the WW franchise and won't be now because there are two other Wonder Girls who are easier to work with and she's bogged down with a bunch of annoying nonsense. For me personally, even factoring in all that, she's the only Wonder Girl I care about, but it's more in the "she has Silver/Bronze age seniority" and "I like her more for NTT and what she could be than what she actually is" sense

  14. #4874
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Why do people like Donna? Serious question. I like Diana obviously, Cassie because of PAD YJ, Johns TT, and Adventure Comics, Artemis because she’s the anti-Diana basically, and Yara because she’s funny but also is the pop culture perception of Diana in a way that works, but I don’t really get why people care about Donna given what an utter mess she seems to be. Is it just NTT nostalgia?
    NTT is 90% of the reason, yeah. Plus one of my first mainstream WW comic was by Byrne and she was part of the 'Wonder Family' with Diana, Hippolyta, Artemis, Cassie and Helena so I always saw her as part of the family even if DC and some fans don't.

    Most of the Amazons and Amazon adjacent characters are mythical archetypes. Donna belongs to both the Amazon world and Man's World.

    Donna has human struggles from having to search for her biological family to being a 'Team Mom' for the Titans. She's like the older sibling who has to parent the younger siblings but whose struggles are often overlooked. What makes it even deeper is that despite putting other people first, she is not always as stable as she likes to be, she is someone who can and has cracked under pressure and made mistakes. That makes her more human and relatable.



    In a weird kind of way, the fact that even DC/WB ignores her, the WW comics often forgetting her existence and the fact that she's getting passed over in favor of Cassie and Yara and the other Titans having gotten more exposure in other media while she continues to be on the sidelines, has only endeared her more to me. Even on a meta level, she's the older sibling who does the most but never gets the toast.

  15. #4875
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Heh, Cassie’s been the one I’ve always never really “got” since I’ve never read YJ and her main thing seems to being the girlfriend for whoever her Bat or Super equivalent is.

    Though I would slightly disagree in that I think Artemis is closer to the pop culture perception of what Diana is.
    Cassie was great in the WW comics she was introduced in and in Peter David's YJ. She was the tomboy, leader type and the only sane one of the team. She was like a softer Toph/Korra early on. Then Geoff Johns turned her into the 'cheerleader' to Superboy's 'quarterback' and it's never been the same (until recently that is).

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