Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[SiegePerilous02]

As far as Marston's kink--I think if it is Grant Morrison's kink in THE INVISIBLES or Alan Moore's kink in PROMETHEA, everyone is good with that. For some reason, this old professor in the quaint olden days expressing his kink in WONDER WOMAN flusters folks. Maybe we don't like to imagine our grandparents having fetishes--but we're cool with whacko Brits doing the same.

What makes you think Morrison and Moore haven't gotten flack for that too?

I think Morrison and Moore have both gotten criticism for such things numerous times, especially Moore who has a tendency to work in "black comedy rape" into a lot of his scripts. Other creators like Frank Miller and Bruce Timm are not strangers to this either.

Diana, Hippolyta and the Amazons would all wield swords in the Golden Age, so I don't think Marston ever had an issue with women wielding swords. But as the WW franchise addresses war as an outgrowth of ideas of toxic masculinity, the ultimate embodiment of feminine power using other tools than traditional war-time weapons can make sense (even if WW and the Amazons are practical enough to not disregard swords all the time). Jimenez's interview for Historia and the Valkyries in the current run made the point that Ares is the embodiment of toxic masculinity, and the Amazons and women engage in war mostly for self defense because it's something forced upon them in a world men (or specifically entitled men in positions of power) are shaping. So Diana is a powerhouse that embodies femininity that eschews the typical tools created specifically for war and bloodshed. She's more powerful than the symbols she stands against, or is meant to be. So her using a sword, especially in the way DC and poorer writers market her as using it in aggressive ways to hack up foes and show no mercy and be a hardened "badass" doesn't really fit the character and I'd rather they retire the sword and edged weapons entirely for a little bit.

I also don't like comparing her to Xena. Because Xena is more well rounded than the hacking and slashing idiot DC passes for Wonder Woman at times. Even so, I love Xena and I love Wonder Woman, but I do not view them as the same character and what works for one will not necessarily work for the other.

[Gaius]

Yeah, I'm gonna be honest I get criticism of the sword because some think it means writers are trying to make Diana more of a violent person but the "sword = phallic" has always been a stretch worthy of Reed Richards to me.

What makes you think Morrison and Moore haven't gotten flack for that too?

Yeah, I mean Moore to this day, and even at the time, still get criticism for TKJ over how he used Barbara in the story.

[John Venus]

On the sword, it is a phallic object. A lasso is yonic. I'm not saying this was intentional, but once you have devices like the lasso, tiara and bracelets that can be viewed as female then my artistic sensibilities prefer that to having Wonder Woman do stuff with swords that so many men do. It helps to underline the fact that she's a woman and distinct from the male lot.

It's as if male writers are on automatic pilot--it's so much a part of how they think that they just automatically put in these devices that pierce, shoot, explode, point. But if they examined their thinking a little they might understand that these objects aren't the only option. Give her a net instead of a lance.

As far as Marston's kink--I think if it is Grant Morrison's kink in THE INVISIBLES or Alan Moore's kink in PROMETHEA, everyone is good with that. For some reason, this old professor in the quaint olden days expressing his kink in WONDER WOMAN flusters folks. Maybe we don't like to imagine our grandparents having fetishes--but we're cool with whacko Brits doing the same.

Not sure if sword = penis is the right analogy here. Isn't that based on the works of Sigmund Freud whose largely been disprove nowadays?

Anyway, I think SiegePerilious02 has mostly got it and I would reiterate that it's not the sword itself but what they are meant to represent in the story itself. Plus the lasso represents the lasso of truth, because Marston was also co-founder of the lie detector test. Diana's purpose is to literally unravel the truth. She has a unique and powerful weapon that has a lot of thematic value for storytelling, why would you substitute that for a generic sword? Even amped up magical GOD KILLER swords, their value is in how much death and destruction it could cause.

[I'm a Fish]

Not sure if sword = penis is the right analogy here. Isn't that based on the works of Sigmund Freud whose largely been disprove nowadays?

I still see a fair amount of sword = penis imagery, though.

[John Venus]

Or guns = penis size comparisons.

But IDK, I need to do more reading on that subject.

[HestiasHearth]

I think Morrison and Moore have both gotten criticism for such things numerous times, especially Moore who has a tendency to work in "black comedy rape" into a lot of his scripts. Other creators like Frank Miller and Bruce Timm are not strangers to this either.

Diana, Hippolyta and the Amazons would all wield swords in the Golden Age, so I don't think Marston ever had an issue with women wielding swords. But as the WW franchise addresses war as an outgrowth of ideas of toxic masculinity, the ultimate embodiment of feminine power using other tools than traditional war-time weapons can make sense (even if WW and the Amazons are practical enough to not disregard swords all the time). Jimenez's interview for Historia and the Valkyries in the current run made the point that Ares is the embodiment of toxic masculinity, and the Amazons and women engage in war mostly for self defense because it's something forced upon them in a world men (or specifically entitled men in positions of power) are shaping. So Diana is a powerhouse that embodies femininity that eschews the typical tools created specifically for war and bloodshed. She's more powerful than the symbols she stands against, or is meant to be. So her using a sword, especially in the way DC and poorer writers market her as using it in aggressive ways to hack up foes and show no mercy and be a hardened "badass" doesn't really fit the character and I'd rather they retire the sword and edged weapons entirely for a little bit.

I also don't like comparing her to Xena. Because Xena is more well rounded than the hacking and slashing idiot DC passes for Wonder Woman at times. Even so, I love Xena and I love Wonder Woman, but I do not view them as the same character and what works for one will not necessarily work for the other.

I want to marry this entire post. Bravo!!!!

[Guy_McNichts]

I've given Scott Snyder crap and was plenty cynical throughout Death Metal.

But, credit where it's due...even though the actual story was a barely comprehensible mess, getting to it was a slog, and it was still too focused on the Laughing Bat-Cenobite...in the end, he did give Diana the big Hero Moment in a major DC crossover event. She was the one to turn Super Saiyan god-mode and save the multiverse by defeating the big bad.

That's something she's never had before in any previous DC event...except for War of the Gods, which DC did everything in its power to sabotage. Not in Final Crisis. Not Infinite Crisis. Blackest Night, Our Worlds at War...all the way back to the original Crisis on Infinite Earths.

However you feel about the actual story, props to Snyder for giving Diana the big win for once.

[SiegePerilous02]

I want to marry this entire post. Bravo!!!!

Thank you!

I've given Scott Snyder crap and was plenty cynical throughout Death Metal.

But, credit where it's due...even though the actual story was a barely comprehensible mess, getting to it was a slog, and it was still too focused on the Laughing Bat-Cenobite...in the end, he did give Diana the big Hero Moment in a major DC crossover event. She was the one to turn Super Saiyan god-mode and save the multiverse by defeating the big bad.

That's something she's never had before in any previous DC event...except for War of the Gods, which DC did everything in its power to sabotage. Not in Final Crisis. Not Infinite Crisis. Blackest Night, Our Worlds at War...all the way back to the original Crisis on Infinite Earths.

However you feel about the actual story, props to Snyder for giving Diana the big win for once.

I avoided the event, but it does sound like a good moment.
It would have been better if it was a wider Wonder-centric event instead of Wonder Woman surrounded by Bat-trappings, but props to him for doing at least this

[Gaius]

I've given Scott Snyder crap and was plenty cynical throughout Death Metal.

But, credit where it's due...even though the actual story was a barely comprehensible mess, getting to it was a slog, and it was still too focused on the Laughing Bat-Cenobite...in the end, he did give Diana the big Hero Moment in a major DC crossover event. She was the one to turn Super Saiyan god-mode and save the multiverse by defeating the big bad.

That's something she's never had before in any previous DC event...except for War of the Gods, which DC did everything in its power to sabotage. Not in Final Crisis. Not Infinite Crisis. Blackest Night, Our Worlds at War...all the way back to the original Crisis on Infinite Earths.

However you feel about the actual story, props to Snyder for giving Diana the big win for once.

I’m still annoyed how little WW stuff beyond Diana herself was in Death Metal but having read that and some of his JL, as far as DC’s Golden Boys go who have written Wonder Woman he’s mostly inoffensive to me at least.

He’s clearly more comfortable with Warrior Woman Diana but I’ve seen worse from a lot of others who claim to be these “I love all of DC” types (Johns, Taylor, Waid) or those seen as “deeper” writers like King.

[I'm a Fish]

I've given Scott Snyder crap and was plenty cynical throughout Death Metal.

But, credit where it's due...even though the actual story was a barely comprehensible mess, getting to it was a slog, and it was still too focused on the Laughing Bat-Cenobite...in the end, he did give Diana the big Hero Moment in a major DC crossover event. She was the one to turn Super Saiyan god-mode and save the multiverse by defeating the big bad.

That's something she's never had before in any previous DC event...except for War of the Gods, which DC did everything in its power to sabotage. Not in Final Crisis. Not Infinite Crisis. Blackest Night, Our Worlds at War...all the way back to the original Crisis on Infinite Earths.

However you feel about the actual story, props to Snyder for giving Diana the big win for once.

Diana's time in the spot-light for Death Metal came so last minute, I wouldn't be surprised if Snyder originally had a different ending with Diana as more of a side character. There was virtually no build-up that the end would rest on Wonder Woman's shoulders throughout his whole JL run or the Year of the Villain stuff.

IDK if Snyder had a last minute change of heart or someone at DC was like, "what about Wonder Woman?" because since Death Metal there has been a huge push in Wonder Woman content. (IDK if it's just because it's her 80th or what, but keep doing it DC I'm not complaining. ).

And while I appreciate the Wonder Woman spotlight in Death Metal (and the weird, forth-wall recognition they gave Diana), I hope DC doesn't think that really counts as a full-on Wonder Woman event.

I want Wondy running the whole race, not Batman handing her the baton for the last lap.

[I'm a Fish]

I’m still annoyed how little WW stuff beyond Diana herself was in Death Metal but having read that and some of his JL, as far as DC’s Golden Boys go who have written Wonder Woman he’s mostly inoffensive to me at least.

He’s clearly more comfortable with Warrior Woman Diana but I’ve seen worse from a lot of others who claim to be these “I love all of DC” types (Johns, Taylor, Waid) or those seen as “deeper” writers like King.

"I love all DC, but really just the most Batman parts about it."

[SiegePerilous02]

"I love all DC, but really just the most Batman parts about it."

Accurate for everyone except Johns lol

[WonderLight789]

Accurate for everyone except Johns lol

Who was the one that insisted in max lord as the villain of WW84?, a movie that threw Cheetah under the bus(as usual) portrayed her as weak by making quick work of her to proceed with the lord plot. I guess patty jenkins is to blame as well. She talked about WW and Cheetah in this movie, in a way that was never found in the final product. But i feel johns was more involved in giving the big villain spotlight to somebody outside of WW's own gallery of villains.

[Gaius]

"I love all DC, but really just the most Batman parts about it."

That's pretty much a perfect description of Snyder.

[SiegePerilous02]

Who was the one that insisted in max lord as the villain of WW84?, a movie that threw Cheetah under the bus(as usual) portrayed her as weak by making quick work of her to proceed with the lord plot. I guess patty jenkins is to blame as well. She talked about WW and Cheetah in this movie, in a way that was never found in the final product. But i feel johns was more involved in giving the big villain spotlight to somebody outside of WW's own gallery of villains.

I meant that Johns doesn't really care for Batman that much, not that he really cares about the WW stuff either