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  1. #2896
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    I care about Hippolyta as a character about as much as I care about the Kents/Zor Els in Superman or the Waynes in Batman. That is...not at all. I don't care about superhero parents - or parental figures in the case of Uncle Ben in Spider-Man - in general beyond establishing an origin and the hero's moral core. I personally loved the Diana can't return to Themsycira aspect of the mythos in Rucka, the live-action films, and the latest animated film because it limits Hippoltya's role in the narrative. Unless it's a story that somehow question's the moral compass or internal narratives and ideology of the character, I feel heroic parents are best neither seen nor heard.

  2. #2897
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I care about Hippolyta as a character about as much as I care about the Kents/Zor Els in Superman or the Waynes in Batman
    I'm sort of there, but not quite as far. For me, I like Diana's memory of Hippolyta. Hippolyta as the one who instilled values in her and is important to her. Moreso than the Waynes and definitely moreso than Els (those dying when children are much younger and so having less impact) but on par with the Kents (I'd have Clark orphaned around a year after college). I don't want living parents unseen and unheard, but would be very happy with occasional visits. And Hippolyta can be impressive and heroic in those visits when we see them. And, of course, many visits to her birth home would be off-panel and uneventful.

    I don't want Diana to never be able to go back to Themyscira. I don't hate it (I'm not that in to Themyscira, preferring "real world" settings), but I'd prefer it not be the case. It's unnecessary angst, which I am so tired of being added to characters.

  3. #2898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't want Diana to never be able to go back to Themyscira. I don't hate it (I'm not that in to Themyscira, preferring "real world" settings), but I'd prefer it not be the case. It's unnecessary angst, which I am so tired of being added to characters.
    I agree about the unnecessary angst. I like the way Jenkins and Gadot handled Themyscira in the live-action film. Once Diana leaves the memory of it still guides her decisions and empathy and ideology. We see it most when she discusses her Aunt Antiope to the British politicians. However, there is no angst for Diana about returning unlike The Lies and The Truth or Bloodlines. Based on the interviews by Jenkins and Gadot for 1984, it seems that while Diana misses her loved ones in general (and not returning to Themyscira specifically) that she is still dedicated to Man's world and trying to forge new lasting relationships with its inhabitants, i.e. Dr. Barbara (Ann) Minerva.

    What annoys me about the reliance of Themysicira in Wonder Woman narratives is that it conflicts and outright negates, at times, Diana's origin. She is supposed to leave Themyscira to improve man's world. This is supposed to show her dedication to improving society for all individuals. It's hard to show that to the audience when so many stories revolve around her present connection to Themiscrya and her leaving man's world to save Themyscira from whatever threat or war is slaughtering a large amount of Amazons this particular event.
    Last edited by PopQuezy; 10-23-2020 at 07:22 AM.

  4. #2899
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    I agree about the unnecessary angst. I like the way Jenkins and Gadot handled Themyscira in the live-action film. Once Diana leaves the memory of it still guides her decisions and empathy and ideology. We see it most when she discusses her Aunt Antiope to the British politicians. However, there is no angst for Diana about returning unlike The Lies and The Truth or Bloodlines. Based on the interviews by Jenkins and Gadot for 1984, it seems that while Diana misses her loved ones in general (and not returning to Themyscira specifically) that she is still dedicated to Man's world and trying to forge new lasting relationships with its inhabitants, i.e. Dr. Barbara (Ann) Minerva.

    What annoys me about the reliance of Themysicira in Wonder Woman narratives is that it conflicts and outright negates, at times, Diana's origin. She is supposed to leave Themyscira to improve man's world. This is supposed to show her dedication to improving society for all individuals. It's hard to show that to the audience when so many stories revolve around her present connection to Themiscrya and her leaving man's world to save Themyscira from whatever threat or war is slaughtering a large amount of Amazons this particuolar event.
    Diana wanting to improve man's world and Themyscira being around are not mutually exclusive or don't have to be. It has been a frequent occurrence since the Golden Age and some of her supporting cast members are Amazons. It's not like Krypton which keeps worming its way back into Superman's narrative despite being blown up in the past. The idea that Diana has to leave Themyscira forever to show her dedication to man's world is a false dichotomy.

  5. #2900
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana wanting to improve man's world and Themyscira being around are not mutually exclusive or don't have to be. It has been a frequent occurrence since the Golden Age and some of her supporting cast members are Amazons. It's not like Krypton which keeps worming its way back into Superman's narrative despite being blown up in the past. The idea that Diana has to leave Themyscira forever to show her dedication to man's world is a false dichotomy.
    I agree with you. Even in my post, I provide examples of The Lies/Truth and Bloodlines which don't have Themsycira around, yet they still focus a lot of angst around Themycira. To date, I think Jenkins and Gadot have done a great job of showing how Themsycira and its inhabitants have shaped Diana and how she uses that guidance to be a force of good in man's world. There is no angst about her returning - I will admittedly eat my words if they do this in 1984 - because she is dedicated to having strong and lasting relationships with people of her new world.

    Ultimately I think stories about Themsycira or that revolve around the Themsycira hurt Wonder Woman mythos more than it helps. And to be clear, I feel the same way about Krypton. I've never cared about it beyond it exploding, and I dislike all the living Krytopians for a story that's supposed to be about the Last Son.

  6. #2901
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    To me, I feel like Themyscira should have a "settled" state. They are not being invaded. There is no civil war and no coups. They are not attacking the outside world. Therefore, there aren't a lot of action stories to be had there. So Diana visits occasionally for one-shots - warm fuzzies with her mom and others and/or slice of life stories. Maaaybe for the purple healing, but that's kinda iffy because it's too easy to use as a crutch. Once in a blue moon, Diana can go there for some esoteric knowledge or to have her mom hit up Aphrodite for some intel, but it should be extremely rare that she needs to do that.

  7. #2902
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    I think what helped in the Golden Age is that Diana showed up in three titles, and one of those had 3-4 stories an issue. So we could have a lot of stories with her going home, but a lot of others where she's in the outside world. So there was a lot more variety.

    These days, she has on regular title and decompression, so if we get Themyscira stories it drags on and on.

  8. #2903
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Themyscira has a more important part in Wonder Woman’s mythos than Krpyton does to Superman so while I don’t want all of Diana’s mythos to revolve around it, I say it has a more justifiable presence to remain a part of her status quo than whatever the new Kryptonian on the street popping up does.

    That said I was fine with the whole exile bit from Rucka even if it was more done to purge away the New 52 Amazons.
    Last edited by Gaius; 10-23-2020 at 12:49 PM.

  9. #2904
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I wonder what do you guys think about this all Batman’s plan to stop Diana? In new 52 it’s shown that her box was emptied. Bruce told Clark that it’s up to him to take down Diana. In other plans it’s just putting Nanobots in her. The issue with the nanobots is more to do Diana acting out of control wouldn’t make sense. Especially with the whole does lasso at times alert Diana to the lies? Because several times without tying the lasso around her she is able to sense lies

  10. #2905
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I wonder what do you guys think about this all Batman’s plan to stop Diana? In new 52 it’s shown that her box was emptied. Bruce told Clark that it’s up to him to take down Diana. In other plans it’s just putting Nanobots in her. The issue with the nanobots is more to do Diana acting out of control wouldn’t make sense. Especially with the whole does lasso at times alert Diana to the lies? Because several times without tying the lasso around her she is able to sense lies
    Most of Bruce’s contingency plans in Tower of Babel and ones that have popped up in New 52 seemed kind of dumb honestly.

  11. #2906
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean withholding the bullets that’s the hard part. Sure she does have the weakness of sharp weapons but even than it’s not easy to cut her body off depending on the weapon.

  12. #2907
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    I don't think there's a nice, clean counter to Diana. Best you can do is get a major magical artifact, something like the head of Medusa, or try to exile her to another dimension.

    The artifact isn't something that just anybody can easily come by, unless their name is Fate, and you're gonna need a legit, high-end artifact, which are even more rare and hard to come by. And exile is really little more than a stalling tactic; if Diana doesn't somehow manage to find her own way home odds are someone, like an Olympian, will eventually retrieve her.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #2908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't think there's a nice, clean counter to Diana. Best you can do is get a major magical artifact, something like the head of Medusa, or try to exile her to another dimension.

    The artifact isn't something that just anybody can easily come by, unless their name is Fate, and you're gonna need a legit, high-end artifact, which are even more rare and hard to come by. And exile is really little more than a stalling tactic; if Diana doesn't somehow manage to find her own way home odds are someone, like an Olympian, will eventually retrieve her.
    I've never read the Tower of Babel comic, and I have no interest in doing so. That being said in the Justice League vs. Suicide Squad comic, binding Diana in her golden lasso was how Amanda Waller kept Diana restrained. Personally, that seems like a straightforward and perfectly logical weakness to me.

  14. #2909
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Metropolis, Krypton, Smallville, Kandor, the Fortress of Solitude, the Daily Planet, Cadmus, STAR Labs, LexCorp, The 100, Suicide Slum, the Phantom Zone, the Super Family, LoSH, etc.

    Gotham, Wayne Manor, the Batcave, WayneTech, Gotham PD, Crime Alley, The League of Shadows, The League of Assassins, Arkham Asylum, Batman Family, etc.

    All of these concepts are central, or tangential, to Superman and Batman lore respectively. Diana deserves just as much and for just as many of her unique concepts to be built up, developed, and explored, if not added to... which is essentially what I’ve been doing in my Wonder Woman Series Bible Thingee:

    [REDACTED] (iconic city), her “home” within the city, Themyscira, Olympus, Transformation Island, the Amazons, Holliday College, the Holliday Girls, the Wonder Woman Foundation, her clothing boutique, Themysciran embassy, Villainy Inc., ARGUS, Cale Pharmaceuticals, Empire Enterprises, Godwatch, Bana-Mighdall, the Mayer Agency, etc.

    Diana and the characters in her mythos have so many different ways to be developed and interact together and it’s a dang shame no one sees the opportunity to make it happen in a creative, inspiring way.

  15. #2910
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Unlike the problems caused with Donna and aging up Steve, Wonder Woman lost nothing of value not being a founding member of the Justice League in the post-Crisis continuity and aside from being a cool poster image, her being on the team has largely contributed nothing of substance to her as a character or her larger world.
    Last edited by Gaius; 10-25-2020 at 03:05 PM.

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