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  1. #436
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    Edited post. NVM.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 05-14-2019 at 11:42 PM.

  2. #437
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Okay. None of this requires her to be 18 when she leaves the island.
    Yet none of it Ever happens in the comic. I want her to be relevant in a real world way and she's not. Being hundreds of years old doesn't help matters.

    I believe you all are being shortsighted by putting Diana in a box and placing all these strident restrictions on her characterization. Why force her to constantly be stiff and educational, that's not fun or interesting to a vast majority of readers. A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down easier.

    Someone commented on another thread that there are less than a dozen regular posters in this forum. We're her fanbase now, but who's going to support her in 50 years when we're gone? That's why I want her young and relatable, so she can hook a new audience. She's too great a character to die out with us.

  3. #438
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That image isn't even from Jiminez. It's from Paul Dini's Spirit of Truth (which basically flanderized Diana into what you're afraid of her turning into).
    I wasn't implying that image was drawn by Phil, since apparently one wasn't enough it's another example of her speechifying (which in this case went horribly wrong).

  4. #439
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    My problem is none of that sounds fun or relatable. I can't picture your version opening a mod clothing boutique, or working at Taco Wiz, or listening to heavy metal music, or enjoying clubbing. It sounds like the preachy, toga wearing, speech maker, looking down her nose at modern society and wanting to change everything her way. What's worse is when it comes to gender politics she doesn't really know what she's talking about. She hasn't personally experienced men, just their history by studying them and their ways for hundreds of years from a Utopian society without them. That's a long time to become biased..instead of the idealistic, extremely curious, adventure loving hero that wants to stop war with love.
    First, being fun or relatable aren't the only values worth looking for in determining how well a fictional character will work. There are many more reasons to read about them or appreciate them. Second, being fun or relatable aren't intrinsic qualities of the character, but emerges between the reader and the character based on good characterisation and good stories.

    There are also more than one way to build relatability in a fictional character. One is the idea that there must be some form of recognition or identification from the reader onto the character, but that's only one way. If we take Wonder Woman as an example, she is practically tailer-made for another form of relatability, that is that she consciously relates to all the people around her. The movie managed that to great effect.

    For myself, I don't care if Diana is 18 or 3,000 years old when she arrives in Man's World. Either can be sources of great stories in the right hands. I also find the obsession with making Wonder Woman relatable more than a little misguided; hardly any other superhero character gets the same treatment.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Yet none of it Ever happens in the comic. I want her to be relevant in a real world way and she's not. Being hundreds of years old doesn't help matters.

    I believe you all are being shortsighted by putting Diana in a box and placing all these strident restrictions on her characterization. Why force her to constantly be stiff and educational, that's not fun or interesting to a vast majority of readers. A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down easier.

    Someone commented on another thread that there are less than a dozen regular posters in this forum. We're her fanbase now, but who's going to support her in 50 years when we're gone? That's why I want her young and relatable, so she can hook a new audience. She's too great a character to die out with us.
    She has had friends, family members, her own culture that she takes pride in and a job for decades.

    None of the things you are asking for where done with Diana in her movie. And yet she still became the first financially and commercially successful movie superheroine. She didn't need to be 18 or younger to hook an audience larger than us. Younger audiences do not need characters they like to be within their age range or even have lives that are similar to theirs. As I said, Diana is among the most popular superheroes in the world right now without needing to be a teenager or young adult.

  6. #441
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Yet none of it Ever happens in the comic. I want her to be relevant in a real world way and she's not. Being hundreds of years old doesn't help matters.

    I believe you all are being shortsighted by putting Diana in a box and placing all these strident restrictions on her characterization. Why force her to constantly be stiff and educational, that's not fun or interesting to a vast majority of readers. A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down easier.

    Someone commented on another thread that there are less than a dozen regular posters in this forum. We're her fanbase now, but who's going to support her in 50 years when we're gone? That's why I want her young and relatable, so she can hook a new audience. She's too great a character to die out with us.
    Again, you're automatically equating 'old' with 'stiff and educational.' As has been pointed out, the Diana in BvS and JL is over 100 years old, has a job, and comes across as a compassionate and relatable human being.

    I'd just like her to behave like a normal modern person that owns a cellphone, owns a car she likes, has a social media presence, is aware of pop culture references and has a hobby other than crime fighting and pontificating.
    Sharing cultural experiences does not have to equate to pontificating (see Perez run).

    Has she *sometimes* been shown at public events as an ambassador being a formal diplomat? Yes, but that has nothing to do with age and everything to do with a story and style choice made by the writer.

    Btw, I personally have no interest in her using a cell phone, driving a car, or having a social media presence. I'm really not interested in seeing Superhero Girls, where Diana is learning to be a regular teen (despite being hundreds of years old ). It's fun in the cartoon, but not what I want in the book.

    By contrast, I love her having a public identity and being an ambassador and author where her 'real life' down time is how she relates to other superheroes, embassy staff, other dignitaries, etc. As amusing as it was, Taco Whiz is not my idea of where I want Diana to go.

    If I want to see the trials and tribulations of an average, every-day woman in the superhero world, there's Batgirl, Black Canary, and other heroes I could read.

    However, that she isn't blending into every day life doesn't mean that Diana is, by default, automatically dehumanized or unrelatable.

  7. #442
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    By opening her own business more like shelter or something that can open more people. For example, she uses her knowledge to heal people if they can’t pay for it. Or just becomes a defense teacher.
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://twitter.com/KarlKesel/status...76881689243648

  8. #443
    Incredible Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    By opening her own business more like shelter or something that can open more people. For example, she uses her knowledge to heal people if they can’t pay for it. Or just becomes a defense teacher.
    Aah, reminds me of Astro City which did something similar with its Wonder Woman expy Victory. Yeah, I could see Wonder Woman doing something like that.

  9. #444
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I wonder what if Paradise Island had more than one tribe? More so due to the fact the Amazons had more than one issue depending on the storyline.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 05-15-2019 at 07:31 PM.
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://twitter.com/KarlKesel/status...76881689243648

  10. #445
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Again, you're automatically equating 'old' with 'stiff and educational.' As has been pointed out, the Diana in BvS and JL is over 100 years old, has a job, and comes across as a compassionate and relatable human being.



    Sharing cultural experiences does not have to equate to pontificating (see Perez run).

    Has she *sometimes* been shown at public events as an ambassador being a formal diplomat? Yes, but that has nothing to do with age and everything to do with a story and style choice made by the writer.

    Btw, I personally have no interest in her using a cell phone, driving a car, or having a social media presence. I'm really not interested in seeing Superhero Girls, where Diana is learning to be a regular teen (despite being hundreds of years old ). It's fun in the cartoon, but not what I want in the book.

    By contrast, I love her having a public identity and being an ambassador and author where her 'real life' down time is how she relates to other superheroes, embassy staff, other dignitaries, etc. As amusing as it was, Taco Whiz is not my idea of where I want Diana to go.

    If I want to see the trials and tribulations of an average, every-day woman in the superhero world, there's Batgirl, Black Canary, and other heroes I could read.

    However, that she isn't blending into every day life doesn't mean that Diana is, by default, automatically dehumanized or unrelatable.
    Sorry Gaelforce, we're never going to agree on this. What you've described sounds like the status quo 20 years ago. I've read those stories and want something new. It feels like we're treading water, every time there's a different direction there's a backlash and we get more of the same. Hence my comment about Diana being in a box and not allowed to change or grow.

    I don't think I'm asking for a whole lot. Behaving like a normal modern person that owns a cellphone, owns a car she likes, has a social media presence, is aware of pop culture references and has a hobby really isn't a tall order. Minus the hobby I've basically described the DCEU version of Wonder Woman, she has all those things.

  11. #446
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    There are many, many, ways for Diana to be relatable, this is one of them.

    WW DRYER.jpg

  12. #447
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    This is where DC has suffered in Modern times. They for a while can't make her relatable . This is why sometimes I would love it if we see a story start with Diana going to movies or listening to music. We just get something of her fighting. We have her with no city. I would love to see the fact she has Paradise Island and a City in the outside world. She is suppose to have two symbolize herself as a agent of the Amazons
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://twitter.com/KarlKesel/status...76881689243648

  13. #448
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Relatability is a meme. Batman is a billionaire genius level ninja who has mastered every field of science known to man as well as every martial arts and has a photographic memory, who can beat anyone with preptime and has a harem of beautiful women who are desperate to sleep with him, whom he mostly ignores in favor of beating up an assorted gang of freaks, none of whom actually qualify for the legal definition of insane except for 1 or 2. He fights them with the help of underaged boys who all look alike, his cousin, his British secret agent butler, the daughter of the police commissioner, and a wide variety of others. Batman is utterly unlike the average reader and literally none of his fans could be him, and only the utterly delusional think otherwise.

    He’s also the most popular hero on the planet and you know why? Because he’s cool. That’s it, he’s a power fantasy through and through with just enough flaws to keep him from being perfect. Diana could use some things to flesh her out, I wouldn’t mind knowing her favorite music for example, but that stuff is secondary. Embrace the coolness of Diana. She’s a demigod princess raised on a utopian all-women island who can kick butt while also being compassionate enough to do more than just hand out beat downs. She’s got flaws that keep her from being perfect, as well as virtues that make her appealing. She was perfectly relatable and likeable in her movie, to the point she singlehandedly kept the DCEU afloat. I feel like you guys are too down on her these days when there’s so much to be optimistic about.

  14. #449
    Incredible Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    If I had one thing about Wonder Woman to be down about, its that we don't have enough of her. We need spinoff comics! Animated movies exploring the greatest storylines across Wonder Womans history! A spinoff film for Wonder Girl! A Lego Wonder Woman movie!

    As it is though, we have a couple of OGNs to come out featuring Wonder Woman and Hippolyta over the next couple years. The movies coming out next year. Wonder Woman will be getting (a potentially horrible) animated movie coming out soonish. And shes the lead character in a DC cartoon by Lauren Faust.

    Im going to have to agree on the relatability bit because I can't say I relate to any heroes and I don't really expect to. I mean, 'alien who looks down on humanity like ants from his fortress of solitude and squeezing coal into diamonds whenever hes short on cash while being able to do anything ever' and 'born into money wealthy war profiteer who realized selling guns to terrorists is bad so he becomes an alchohol loving superhero' are not concepts I find relatable. Despite that, their mega popular and are well regarded as among the greatest and most beloved superheroes in the world behind 'richest man in the world whose mastered all science and martial arts so he can dress up as his fursona and punch muggers.'

    Honestly the world views of characters like Iron man and Batman are probably more alien than Wonder Womans to most of the populace of the planet.

  15. #450
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    But I do still think we should have her get s city. What would be so wrong with her having a city feel with magical creatures?

    Also why is there a most likely new 52 animated movie? I mean Dc said no more individual character movies. The only reason why I say new 52 movie is her Va is the new 52.
    Please sign this so we can at least show DC we want Legend of Wonder Woman part 2.

    https://twitter.com/KarlKesel/status...76881689243648

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