Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[WonderLight789]

We are talking about the same scene where the same said Germans with their modern weaponry were all cut down to man?

What where there liberties anymore particular egregious than the adaptations of other properties like Batman or Superman? Yeah, they selected stuff from across WW publication history along with their creative choices. This happens in adaptions of multi-decade properties.

It all comes down to the same topic. They usually treat BM and SM with more respect. They generally put more effort in representing their lore. With WW is not like that. Her first movie was good. But let's not act like they took the time to study much of her material. They mostly took stuff from New 52, the rest was creative choices of their own and that was it. Usually when it's SM and BM, they try harder to represent their worlds.

[Gaius]

It all comes down to the same topic. They usually treat BM and SM with more respect. They generally put more effort in representing their lore. With WW is not like that. Her first movie was good. But let's not act like they took the time to study much of her material. They mostly took stuff from New 52, the rest was creative choices of their own and that was it. Usually when it's SM and BM, they try harder to represent their worlds.

Both the 70s Superman films and Batman films from Burton up to Nolan are not particularly representative of the comics that were being published at the time and are full of creative liberties due to the instincts of the directors, writers, and actors working on those films.

Superman as Jesus starts with the Donner films along with Crystal Krpyton/Fortress and "Kneel before" General Zod.

Batman and Joker are actually engaging characters in the Nolan films so he definitely wasn't pulling much from modern Batman comics.

Saying they pulled mostly from New 52 is an exaggeration. The most notable thing they pulled was Daddy Zeus and Diana liking ice cream. Jenkins herself said they looked at Marston and Perez and you can see that with stuff like the World War setting, Ares design and being the starter big bad, how Themyscira looked, the Amazons, etc.

[I'm a Fish]

I can only speak to the reactions that I have seen. Even though the reactions I've posted don't reflect the 'majority', they are still valid nonetheless. Based on the WW comics, the movies could have been A LOT better. Most people only know WW by her reputation not by the actual content of her comics.

The Amazons weren't codified as 'men hating baby killers' until the 2011 reboot. For their 70+ years they were a more compassionate culture with a unique history.

The movies seem to think the core of WW's story is Diana and Steve Trevor just like Clark and Lois Lane. In reality, the core of WW's story is Diana and Hippolyta. It is a rare matriarchal narrative.

Overall, I think Thor, Black Panther and Shang Chi have done a better job of bringing to life their character's respective worlds and culture.

Well...for the first several issues of Marston's Wonder Woman, Diana x Steve was much more of a focus than Hippolyta and Diana, which would make sense in any scenario when Themyscira is cut off from Diana upon leaving (Same with Ribirth with Steve, Etta and Barbara and PC but with Julia and Venessa). They could always have flashbacks, but Diana's origin story cannot be a mother daughter narrative once she leaves the island since her mother is now out of the picture, that is for a sequel.

Granted, I'm not saying Steve needs to be more important than Hippolyta, but a Wonder Woman origin, in every origin that has been portrayed, cannot be a journey of mother and daughter because Diana has to leave her mother for the journey to start. Really, Hippolyta's journey in Diana's origin is always the same, that she accepts Diana is ready to leave the island.

[SiegePerilous02]

The Zeus origin is from the New 52, but otherwise I the Amazons are from the Perez run. No Dessa or Aleka, but we have Antiope, Phillipus, Acantha, Epione, Timandra etc. All Perez Amazons, and they have that characterization. Plus a Marston villain in Dr. Poison and also Phil Darnell made a cameo. Like all adaptations it grabbed from various areas

[Agent Z]

That Thor, Black Panther, and Shang Chi have done better with their characters is pretty cut and dry.

I'd agree that Thor did better if the first two Thor movies didn't exist. And while I like Black Panther and Shang Chi, they also took liberties and you will also see complaints about the former on the BP board. Doesn't mean they weren't overall good movies.

With DCs Wonder Woman, they were hamstrung from the jump with the ANTI WW vibe DiDio and Johns presented.

What does DiDio have to do with any of this? The guy works for the publishing arm of DC and has no control over the movies. And Johns's involvement in the first movie was simply as executive producer.

There's a problem when both TV efforts did better by the character than the film did.

What TV efforts? Are we including the David E. Kelley pilot which was panned by both critics and fans alike.

Sooooooooooooo many liberties were taken in both movies and her catalogue was pretty much gutted or ignored by the not well considered choices. Instead of the mythical fantastical origin we get "oh she's another of Zeus children". Instead of the powerful Amazons who laugh at mortal weapons and instruments of war and play Bullets and Bracelets as a game we get Amazons who are on the struggle bus dealing with WWI weapons.

These aren't liberties if they actually come from the comics.

I could go on ad nauseum but the bottom line is Marvel embraced their properties whereas both DC and WB reject what makes their properties unique and awesome preferring instead to make them generic.

Marvel has taken just as many liberties as DC if not more. Thanos and the Guardians of the Galaxy easily come to mind. Marvel isn't anymore "respectful" of their properties than DC, they just get less flack for it because not as many people know about them outside of comic reading crowds.

[Agent Z]

Both the 70s Superman films and Batman films from Burton up to Nolan are not particularly representative of the comics that were being published at the time and are full of creative liberties due to the instincts of the directors, writers, and actors working on those films.

Superman as Jesus starts with the Donner films along with Crystal Krpyton/Fortress and "Kneel before" General Zod.

Batman and Joker are actually engaging characters in the Nolan films so he definitely wasn't pulling much from modern Batman comics.

Saying they pulled mostly from New 52 is an exaggeration. The most notable thing they pulled was Daddy Zeus and Diana liking ice cream. Jenkins herself said they looked at Marston and Perez and you can see that with stuff like the World War setting, Ares design and being the starter big bad, how Themyscira looked, the Amazons, etc.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that one comes from Jiminez originally.

[WonderLight789]

Both the 70s Superman films and Batman films from Burton up to Nolan are not particularly representative of the comics that were being published at the time and are full of creative liberties due to the instincts of the directors, writers, and actors working on those films.

Superman as Jesus starts with the Donner films along with Crystal Krpyton/Fortress and "Kneel before" General Zod.

Batman and Joker are actually engaging characters in the Nolan films so he definitely wasn't pulling much from modern Batman comics.

Saying they pulled mostly from New 52 is an exaggeration. The most notable thing they pulled was Daddy Zeus and Diana liking ice cream. Jenkins herself said they looked at Marston and Perez and you can see that with stuff like the World War setting, Ares design and being the starter big bad, how Themyscira looked, the Amazons, etc.

No contest. No flight. No technology. Amazons that can be killed by ww1 weapons etc. I didn't see much from Marston, Perez or other pre 52 writers.

[Agent Z]

No contest. No flight. No technology. Amazons that can be killed by ww1 weapons etc. I didn't see much from Marston, Perez or other pre 52 writers.

Marston didn't give Diana flight. The outdated technology is also from Perez's run.

[Guy_McNichts]

There's also the simple fact of running time.
Yeah, you probably could've devoted more of the movie to Diana's connection to the Amazons and the Contest and all that. Then you would've been about two hours into the movie before she even leaves the island. And at two hours, twenty minutes, it's not like the first Wonder Woman movie was short. Credit where it's due, they covered a lot of ground in that one film.


Also...taking it back to the core of Wonder Woman is her relationship with Hippolyta idea...another thing with that is it suggests the end of Diana's story is returning to Themyscira and reconciling with her mother. And I don't see "going back home" as the end of Wonder Woman's story.

In fact, that was one idea (among many, many others) I didn't like about Zack Snyder's planned Justice League arc. The end of Diana's story, whatever that may be, isn't going back home.
For all that can be said about Infinite Crisis and Geoff Johns's writing of her, Diana saying--when Themyscira was about to disappear to another plane--"My destiny isn't on this island. It never was." was a bullseye.

[Agent Z]

There's also the simple fact of running time.
Yeah, you probably could've devoted more of the movie to Diana's connection to the Amazons and the Contest and all that. Then you would've been about two hours into the movie before she even leaves the island. And at two hours, twenty minutes, it's not like the first Wonder Woman movie was short. Credit where it's due, they covered a lot of ground in that one film.


Also...taking it back to the core of Wonder Woman is her relationship with Hippolyta idea...another thing with that is it suggests the end of Diana's story is returning to Themyscira and reconciling with her mother. And I don't see "going back home" as the end of Wonder Woman's story.

In fact, that was one idea (among many, many others) I didn't like about Zack Snyder's planned Justice League arc. The end of Diana's story, whatever that may be, isn't going back home.
For all that can be said about Infinite Crisis and Geoff Johns's writing of her, Diana saying--when Themyscira was about to disappear to another plane--"My destiny isn't on this island. It never was." was a bullseye.

The end of Diana's story isn't an idea set in stone because Diana's story, by nature of DC, will never end. Any adaptation or Elseworld can pick whatever ending they choose. They could have Diana retire and open a flower shop and it would make as much sense as anything else because unlike the comics, these movies aren't meant to last forever.

As for Infinite Crisis, I can't claim that was good writing for Diana given the motivations behind it and what came next. I also think people have a misunderstanding of what Themyscira actually is when they say things like this. Themyscira isn't a prison Diana is escaping from and Marston had Diana regularly visiting the island as early as issue 6 or something like that and the island has been a consistent presence in most of her celebrated runs. That negative interpretation of Themyscira is how you get stuff like Azzarello's take or Amazons Attack.

One of the big issues plaguing Wonder Woman is how fans and writers project what they think the character should be like vs what she actually has been like. It reminds me of how the Star Wars fandom cited focus on politics as one of the prequels' flaws only to turn around when politics became a huge focus in the Clone Wars series.

[Guy_McNichts]

Uh oh...I said a mean thing about Snyder. Therefore I'm just a delusional fan projecting what I want her to be and not what she actually is...whatever the hell that means with a character that's been around for almost a century and been interpreted by hundreds (if not thousands) of creators.

[Agent Z]

Uh oh...I said a mean thing about Snyder. Therefore I'm just a delusional fan projecting what I want her to be and not what she actually is...

I also criticized Johns's writing of Diana's relationship with Themyscira as well as Amazons Attack and Azzarello's run. I also didn't call you delusional but if you want to play the victim, go ahead.

whatever the hell that means with a character that's been around for almost a century and been interpreted by hundreds (if not thousands) of creators.

Do you see the irony of this comment after that stuff you said about how Diana's story doesn't end with going back to her home?

If you are aware that Diana has been around for almost a century and has been interpreted differently by numerous writers, acting like one writer doesn't get the character while another did is disingenuous to say the least.

[Guy_McNichts]

Do you see the irony of this comment after that stuff you said about how Diana's story doesn't end with going back to her home?

Not really. Because I said:

And I don't see "going back home" as the end of Wonder Woman's story.

I clearly said how I--me, as an individual--see it. People are welcome to disagree, and I'm open to hearing their take on the matter.


But, by all means--because this isn't the first time I've seen you make this comment--why don't you educate us lowly fans how Wonder Woman "actually" is.

[Agent Z]

Not really. Because I said:

Which you then followed up with.

The end of Diana's story, whatever that may be, isn't going back home.
For all that can be said about Infinite Crisis and Geoff Johns's writing of her, Diana saying--when Themyscira was about to disappear to another plane--"My destiny isn't on this island. It never was." was a bullseye.

But, by all means--because this isn't the first time I've seen you make this comment--why don't you educate us lowly fans how Wonder Woman "actually" is.

You say stuff like that here all the time.

[Alpha]

Also...taking it back to the core of Wonder Woman is her relationship with Hippolyta idea...another thing with that is it suggests the end of Diana's story is returning to Themyscira and reconciling with her mother. And I don't see "going back home" as the end of Wonder Woman's story.

In fact, that was one idea (among many, many others) I didn't like about Zack Snyder's planned Justice League arc. The end of Diana's story, whatever that may be, isn't going back home.
For all that can be said about Infinite Crisis and Geoff Johns's writing of her, Diana saying--when Themyscira was about to disappear to another plane--"My destiny isn't on this island. It never was." was a bullseye.

I totally agree with you there. Diana isn't like T'challa. And I don't think of Diana as "an amazon". The amazons are gay warriors that abandoned a world that didn't deserve them and in which they could not be happy. They found a new peaceful life in Paradise Island and went from warriots to just people. But Diana is a blessing raised on that Paradise whose nature seeks challenges to resolve.

The amazons feel fullfilled when they get their paradise. Diana feels fulfilled when she leaves the island and finds a world full of unknowable challenges. Paradise Island is where she goes to rest and recuperate, but I think Diana would rather end her journey on a sunrise in a strange world.