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  1. #2566
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    I don't think Diana should be any more special than the other Amazons.

  2. #2567
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    I don't think Diana should be any more special than the other Amazons.
    I still don't get how this would make a good story.

  3. #2568
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    I still don't get how this would make a good story.
    Because one of the key concepts of the original Wonder Woman run was that any woman could be Wonder Woman. So tying Diana's powers to her heritage goes against that.

  4. #2569
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    I don't think Diana should be any more special than the other Amazons.
    I'm not overly attached to "special snowflake" as a character concept, at least most of the time, but Diana has been unique and special among Amazons since her creation.

    Her powers don't necessarily have to be beyond that of other Amazons, depending on the continuity and version, so in that way she doesn't necessarily have to be special. But she was created by magic and blessed by the gods and trained to be a queen from birth. That's pretty special. Any one of those things is enough to set her apart, and her position as princess and heir makes sure that she'll never just be "one of the girls."

    It's not that "any woman can be Wonder Woman" in a literal sense. It's like that old Superman quote; "Do good to others and every man can be a Superman." Doesn't mean that every man can fly and throw mountains or is the last survivor of a dead super species. It means that any person can work to make the world around them a better place and help those in need, and in that way, be Super.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-03-2020 at 12:01 PM.
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  5. #2570
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    I still don't get how this would make a good story.
    In and of itself, it doesn't. It doesn't make a bad one either.

  6. #2571
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    (The Amazons, in this pitch, are not immortal, and just have kids.)
    The biggest problem for that for me is if they have a "Paradise Island". Then they have a much easier life than "we" do, which makes their accomplishments less impressive if they didn't have that fight for survival. If they are older, then they (excepting Diana and any newbies) fought the fight and earned their place through their actions. Worse if most of their tech is older. And then (as has been done several times here and some in the comics), you have to have a reason generation after generation a focus remains on martial skills. I especially feel bad that it likely makes Hippolyta a queen experience in adversity.

    Her powers don't necessarily have to be beyond that of other Amazons, depending on the continuity and version, so in that way she doesn't necessarily have to be special. But she was created by magic and blessed by the gods and trained to be a queen from birth. That's pretty special. Any one of those things is enough to set her apart, and her position as princess and heir makes sure that she'll never just be "one of the girls."
    I don't agree with that. If Hippolyta was immortal, there would be little need to train Diana as a queen - it should never be a role she should have to fulfill. I don't care for her blessed with beauty, grace, etc. She's beautiful because she was molded that way. The rest of her accomplishments are earned, and I do like all the other Amazons have the same abilities - she's one of them, not above them. I do like her as made from clay and am amenable to her being the only one so molded, even if it makes her a lone child (which is what I would have though she was from the earliest origin story, though that was soon proven not to be the case). I feel like if they are immortal/ageless on the island (as I prefer them to be), their population would just keep growing until they ran of space if they spent thousands of years with most choosing to have children (and some might want several or one every 50 years or whatnot).

  7. #2572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    And then (as has been done several times here and some in the comics), you have to have a reason generation after generation a focus remains on martial skills.
    Ideally you wouldn't, because the amazons would not be focused on Martial Skills. They would be a society that sees war as an outdated, evil concept for which their society has no use. and Martial activities would be limited to the realm of Sport, and spiritual fulfillment.

  8. #2573
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    Ideally you wouldn't, because the amazons would not be focused on Martial Skills. They would be a society that sees war as an outdated, evil concept for which their society has no use. and Martial activities would be limited to the realm of Sport, and spiritual fulfillment.
    Then Diana isn't and won't be a warrior at origin. That's okay if that's your thing, but it isn't mine. She'd have the strength, but not the skill. Sport doesn't resemble battle. And it's just not what the word Amazon evokes. To me, they should be phenomenal warriors, even if they would seek other ways and means. If it comes to it, they are trained, ready, and prepared to fight with great skill. They shouldn't be only warriors (I'm big on them with more tech and scientific developments, so long as those are ones that make sense in the context of their society). But that should definitely be something they excel at to me.

    I'd also think that their society has no use for war only works so long as no one else brings it to their doorstep. And are they completely pacifist - that would feel completely off to me. And it would give Diana a reason to feel ostracized. Either because she sees evil and wants to fight and they're okay with it so long as it touch them or because they would only use other means, not battle. That's too Raven to me. I do like old-school Raven, though. And they were the pacifist-even-if-we're-destroyed-because-of-it type, I admit, so at least weren't exactly self-serving hypocrites about it. I don't want her to be or feel ostracized. I want her values to largely be their values (there's still some issue on how men are viewed and equality between the sexes and so forth). And I want her to be a fighter. Not a mindless brute who jumps to aggression as a first response, but certainly one who perceives aggressive action, even violent action, and fighting wars as sometimes the appropriate thing to do.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-03-2020 at 02:44 PM.

  9. #2574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Then Diana isn't and won't be a warrior at origin. That's okay if that's your thing, but it isn't mine. She'd have the strength, but not the skill. Sport doesn't resemble battle. And it's just not what the word Amazon evokes. To me, they should be phenomenal warriors, even if they would seek other ways and means. If it comes to it, they are trained, ready, and prepared to fight with great skill. They shouldn't be only warriors (I'm big on them with more tech and scientific developments, so long as those are ones that make sense in the context of their society). But that should definitely be something they excel at to me.

    I'd also think that their society has no use for war only works so long as no one else brings it to their doorstep. And are they completely pacifist - that would feel completely off to me. And it would give Diana a reason to feel ostracized. Either because she sees evil and wants to fight and they're okay with it so long as it touch them or because they would only use other means, not battle. That's too Raven to me. I do like old-school Raven, though. And they were the pacifist-even-if-we're-destroyed-because-of-it type, I admit, so at least weren't exactly self-serving hypocrites about it. I don't want her to be or feel ostracized. I want her values to largely be their values (there's still some issue on how men are viewed and equality between the sexes and so forth). And I want her to be a fighter. Not a mindless brute who jumps to aggression as a first response, but certainly one who perceives aggressive action, even violent action, and fighting wars as sometimes the appropriate thing to do.
    Them not being warriors is the point. The Warrior identity is a toxic influence on the Wonder Woman Mythos, I prefer to down play it.

    Wonder Woman is still a fighter, but she's not a warrior. She is instead a Martial Artist. She knows how to fight, and is willing to fight to defend others, but never uses more force than is necessary.

    My take on Wonder Woman's relationship to the rest of the Amazons is that she is the paragon of their values. The primary amazonian values are compassion an love. The reason that their society is a paradise is because every Amazon is taught to care about the other Amazons. No one on Themyscira can ignore the suffering of anyone else there, so they're all motivated to help each other. Where Diana goes above and beyond is that she extends the same to everyone outside of Themyscira too, whereas the other amazons aren't sure that their ways can be replicated and are hesitant to trust outsiders.

    Diana is the kind of person who, when walking onto a battlefield, does not see armies, but the individuals suffering and dying.

  10. #2575
    Ultimate Member AtheistInRed's Avatar
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    Since this a controversial opinion thread I wanted to state that in my opinion not allowing men in Themyscira is dumb, outdated and should be changed.
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  11. #2576
    Astonishing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Here's something controversial: I recently re-read Odyssey and it's actually a pretty good story. It has good art and an epic feel to it, the Rogues Gallery is well utilized, and it's a more interesting take on "Diana has an identity crisis due to the gods' machinations and needs help from one of her enemies to put things right and soft reboot" than what Rucka did in his latest run. Yeah, the biker costume is terrible, but I dig Cheetah's design at least.

  12. #2577
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    Diana should stand out in everyway!! She should be stronger, faster a more skilled fighter than all amazons!! Diana being a run of the mill amazon is boring and would be very boring!! Guess this why all the superheroes in the DC universe are more are less punching bags now!!
    Last edited by lotchj; 07-03-2020 at 11:02 PM.

  13. #2578
    Ultimate Member AtheistInRed's Avatar
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    Exactly. DC nerfed so many characters its sad. I blame new 52 for the nerfs.
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  14. #2579
    Ultimate Member AtheistInRed's Avatar
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    Lmao, even newer characters are able to beat DCs heavy hitters now.
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  15. #2580
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtheistInRed View Post
    Lmao, even newer characters are able to beat DCs heavy hitters now.
    I think they confuse powerful with interesting. It's a mistake that editors and publishers make. They think that they can get a character "over with the fans," by having them beat up characters that people already like.

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