Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[I'm a Fish]

In the comics she was basically Tony's secretary(or something) but later started using his power armor tech. And IIRC that started before the MCU. The MCU also started having her as hero in the Iron Man movies. She started out as an Extremis powered meta-human, but yeah.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51DTltif08Q

Pepper first appeared as Rescue in 2009, Iron Man was released in 2008.

Personally, I don't think MCU Pepper is the best depiction of a strong character because much of what happens to her revolves around Tony. She get's kidnap or put in danger because of her relationship with Tony, we don't really see her apart from him much either. She got those fire powers from the Mandarin because she's Tony's girlfriend, and even in Endgame it's implied Tony made the Rescue armor for her without her consent (the, "your mother never wears what I buy her" line when we see his daughter playing with the helmet). We never see Pepper ask him to make the armor, or see her strive to become a hero. (Maybe she gave some indication of it in the 3rd film, honestly I don't remember.)

Pepper is fun as a friend and foil for Tony, but she was never allowed to grow beyond her relationship with him.

Steve on the other hand, would have tried to stop the war with or without Diana's help, their goals just happened to intersect. Steve wanted to help people just as much as Diana did, he just had to do it a different way.

But I don't remember Pepper saying to Tony "I want to help people the way you do." Again, maybe she did say something like that in Iron Man 2 or 3 and I don't remember. And I don't hate Pepper in these movies, but despite how much scene time she's had in these film her hero arc feels rather lacking. They could have done better exploring why she would want to become a hero, because it really just feels like Rescue was shoehorned in the final battle for fan service and to say goodbye to Tony when he dies.

But yeah, that's just my opinion on Pepper. She was made to be a side character, so I don't expect her to steal the spotlight any more than I expect Steve to from Diana. It just feels like they could have done a smoother transition into her super hero persona. They manage to squeeze in motives for all of Diana's side characters in the first movie didn't they. But I guess this turned into an over explanation on why I like the side character's more in Wonder Woman than I do in Iron Man.

[marhawkman]

Pepper first appeared as Rescue in 2009, Iron Man was released in 2008.

Ah, but... that's not when Pepper first had powers in the MCU. Sure, it may have been an idea that editorial put in because they were going to do it in the MCU later, But it didn't happen in the MCU until Iron Man 3, and even then she wasn't Rescue until Endgame in 2019.

But yeah, that's just my opinion on Pepper. She was made to be a side character, so I don't expect her to steal the spotlight any more than I expect Steve to from Diana. It just feels like they could have done a smoother transition into her super hero persona.

did you see the end of Iron Man 3? (like that clip I linked?) Tony Stark FAILS and nearly gets killed before Pepper saves him. YEP! Tony Stark got to play "damsel-in-distress"!

[I'm a Fish]

Ah, but... that's not when Pepper first had powers in the MCU. Sure, it may have been an idea that editorial put in because they were going to do it in the MCU later, But it didn't happen in the MCU until Iron Man 3, and even then she wasn't Rescue until Endgame in 2019.
did you see the end of Iron Man 3? (like that clip I linked?) Tony Stark FAILS and nearly gets killed before Pepper saves him. YEP! Tony Stark got to play "damsel-in-distress"!

Eh, I wouldn't quite say he failed or call him a damsel-in-destress in that scene. He severely wounded the Mandarin, he still had a robot arm on, and a suit on standby to help him out (that conveniently didn't listen when he told it not to shoot Pepper).

Pepper getting the final kill felt like a distraction for not giving her her own suit in any of the 3 films...but I'm being pessimistic enough about it already. (I was disappointed she didn't get to keep the fire powers though )

[marhawkman]

Eh, I wouldn't quite say he failed or call him a damsel-in-destress in that scene. He severely wounded the Mandarin, he still had a robot arm on, and a suit on standby to help him out (that conveniently didn't listen when he told it not to shoot Pepper).

Enh they needed some excuse to have Pepper rip the suit apart and use the pieces of it as weapons

[John Venus]

Watching Marvel's F&TWS and it speaks to how well Marvel has established Cap's shield and what it represents that fans are having visceral reactions to someone tainting it's legacy. I also remember how shocked people where when Thor's hammer was destroyed in Ragnarok and when Cap lifted the hammer in Endgame.

We shouldn't have to debate whether Wonder Woman should use a sword or lasso anymore than we should be debating whether Cap should be using a shield or gun or whether Thor should be using sword instead of a hammer.

[I'm a Fish]

Reminds me of when Genocide turned the lasso red and used it to torture people.

[Alpha]

Watching Marvel's F&TWS and it speaks to how well Marvel has established Cap's shield and what it represents that fans are having visceral reactions to someone tainting it's legacy. I also remember how shocked people where when Thor's hammer was destroyed in Ragnarok and when Cap lifted the hammer in Endgame.

We shouldn't have to debate whether Wonder Woman should use a sword or lasso anymore than we should be debating whether Cap should be using a shield or gun or whether Thor should be using sword instead of a hammer.

Yup. Heck, Ghost Rider has a weapon very similar to Diana's lasso and nobody ever thinks he needs to use any other weapon.

[Perseus]

I really feel like we can have both. You can have Diana using a her lasso 99% of the time and make it her signature tool AND have her use a sword/shield when Diana chooses to go down that path and have her face the aftermath of that choice.

[marhawkman]

I really feel like we can have both. You can have Diana using a her lasso 99% of the time and make it her signature tool AND have her use a sword/shield when Diana chooses to go down that path and have her face the aftermath of that choice.

Honestly there's a LONG list of reasons to use a magic shield... really really... long...

Shields are THE stereotypical defensive device. When you're a superhero it's not even about protecting yourself! Being a superhero means protecting others.

[SiegePerilous02]

I really feel like we can have both. You can have Diana using a her lasso 99% of the time and make it her signature tool AND have her use a sword/shield when Diana chooses to go down that path and have her face the aftermath of that choice.

Yeah, this is how it should be. Her with a sword and shield IS a cool visual and she's a practical warrior, she isn't stupid enough to rule out needing to use them.

But it being her default tools? Could do without that. Like in the Rebirth Silver Swan arc, she was wielding it against Vanessa. She didn't really use the sword, which was good because her wielding it against a misguided teen is gross. But carrying it around without using it also looks cumbersome and dumb. Like she should free up her hands instead of awkwardly holding a tool she isn't using. The shield meanwhile wasn't doing anything the bracelets couldn't do.

[Gaius]

Yeah, this is how it should be. Her with a sword and shield IS a cool visual and she's a practical warrior, she isn't stupid enough to rule out needing to use them.

But it being her default tools? Could do without that. Like in the Rebirth Silver Swan arc, she was wielding it against Vanessa. She didn't really use the sword, which was good because her wielding it against a misguided teen is gross. But carrying it around without using it also looks cumbersome and dumb. Like she should free up her hands instead of awkwardly holding a tool she isn't using. The shield meanwhile wasn't doing anything the bracelets couldn't do.

Yeah, it'd be like if Batman took his DKR armor to every confrontation with, idk, Penguin or something.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, it'd be like if Batman took his DKR armor to every confrontation with, idk, Penguin or something.

Condiment King!

[I'm a Fish]

Yeah, this is how it should be. Her with a sword and shield IS a cool visual and she's a practical warrior, she isn't stupid enough to rule out needing to use them.

But it being her default tools? Could do without that. Like in the Rebirth Silver Swan arc, she was wielding it against Vanessa. She didn't really use the sword, which was good because her wielding it against a misguided teen is gross. But carrying it around without using it also looks cumbersome and dumb. Like she should free up her hands instead of awkwardly holding a tool she isn't using. The shield meanwhile wasn't doing anything the bracelets couldn't do.

Especially when we all know the lasso would have worked on Venessa. TBH though, even Rucka and Jimenez avoided Diana using the lasso on Venessa for some reason, even when Circe told Venessa not to touch it cuz it would mess up her brain. (But that just made me wanna see what would happen if she touched the lasso...)

[Agent Z]

Last time i checked. Her fight with superman in snyder jl treated her the same way. 2 hits from Superman is all itb took to take care of her. Her fight with steppenwolñf was just her winning some time until superman arrives. She later killed him with the sword once he was already defeated. She did nothing major against him with her own powers. Which is why i dislike the sword and shield. They are taking spotlight time away from her own powers. And making her look like her powers alone are not good enough to face any big threat. Like she needs the sword and shield to do anything to a major threat. See Doomsday, see steppenwolf. That is not the WW i remember.

She actually hurt Steppenwolf in the Snyder Cut and she used the bracelet explosion power. And Superman showing up to help her after she'd already done major damage to him is different than him coming to her rescue. And no, she did not go down in two hits from Superman. She also killed Steppenwolf because, what the hell else was she supposed to do with him? Send him to a prison that could not hold him?

[Agent Z]

Black Widow was introduced in Iron Man 2 and wasn't taken seriously by the other characters until she beat up Happy. Her main purpose in that movie was to beat people up. Black Widow does have the benefit of being a female hero with the most screen time so she was aloud to grow beyond this.

Monica, yeah you're right she's also not in that boat.

Wanda is more complicated but she also was introduced as a terrorist and unleashed Hulk unto a city. (I would count anything the characters did in Civil War because the premise of that movie was that they fight each other.)
In WandaVision she psychologically tortured an entire town of people. Granted, she wasn't totally aware of it for a while, but she also tried to turn Monica into paste at one point when Monica just wanted to talk (like she didn't know she had powers). Meanwhile Vision never tried to hurt anyone. Wanda is an interesting character but she's also a deeply problematic one, but not more than Tony Stark I suppose.

(Agents of Shield isn't MCU same with the Netflix stuff, but the characters on that show do have the benefit of being in a TV show with more screen time to flesh them out.)

Pepper Potts and was introduced as a supporting character and love interest, and not a hero. She wasn't as hero until Marvel realized they needed more female heroes for their Endgame group shot and to have her be there to say goodbye to Tony as he died.

Carol's whole reason for being in Endgame was for fighting. And a the end of her movie she was shown taking pleaser in killing the Kree (honestly that's whatever, I was as emotionally numb during that movie as Carol was). Her personality is also a little bit...cardboard-y...



A lot of female heroes are introduced through violence in the MCU.

Peggy decked a cadet for proof as to why she's his worthy to be there, while Steve is shown worthy by being willing to take a grenadine for his comrades. And I get it, 40's, sexism, but there are women who fought in WWII (and throughout history) who where also belittled despite their service and they certainly didn't prove their worth by decking their peers or subordinates, which makes her depiction stand out even more.
Peggy also held a gun to Cap and shot at him without warning for proof of the shield working...

So I suppose, it's more than personality I am referring to but overwhelming abundance of aggressive behavior from women. It might not always take the form of a quick-to-anger personality, but it is usually in the form of aggressive behavior. And that aggressive behavior is usually used as a justification tool to show that they are a "girl-boss".

And to see that from Wonder Woman in JL in the form of the terroirst scene (that we've all talked to death, lol) none of the other characters were introduced by killing people. That really says something.



That would definitely help, yes. We still only have female led 3 blockbuster compared to the dozens of male led ones. Having women still being primarily kept in supporting rolls does nothing to help their character.
And again, I don't have a problem with any of these characters alone, and the more screen time they get the more layered they will become (I should hope). Xena herself probably would have been depicted similarly if she was limited to supporting roles and team films.

Edit: MCU women tend to fall into the category of "love interest" or "girl-boss". Same with the DCEU, they are certainly not without this problem too. Wonder Woman is the exeption for both franchises (in her films).

Black Widow using violence and Black Widow being aggressive are two different things. The former is just standard superhero stuff, the latter is describing her overall personality. Her beating Happy in a sparring match he insisted on is not her being aggressive.

And as for overwhelming aggressive behavior from women:

* Tony blew up his living room in anger over the Ten Rings using his weapons, beat up his friend while drunk and nearly killed Bucky when he found out he killed his parents under mind control.

* Thor invaded another realm and nearly caused an interplanetary war, attacked the Avengers in the first team up film rather than explain himself and choked Tony for creating Ultron.

* Ant-Man is introduced fighting with another inmate as part of a some weird goodbye ritual. Then we have Hank Pym in a flashback bashing a guy's nose.

* Drax didn't get the nickname "Destroyer" for no reason.

* The Hulk needs no explanation.

The women in the MCU (with the exception of Nebula and maybe Wanda) aren't anymore aggressive than most of the men. Maybe if you compare them to Steve alone it stands out but their behavior isn't anything unusual when you look at the MCU as a whole and their relationship with violence. Peggy's two instances in the Captain America movie are kind of OOC for her given how she acts the rest of the time. Yes Diana killed people in that scene but it was only in service to saving innocents.