Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Manakel]

I have myself in other discussions expressed my desire for a more ambigious Circe.

Isn't she though ? If i remmeber correctly she has friendly discussion with Diana, in the anniversary issue for exemple.

[Mel Dyer]

Not the point. I dislike (vehemently) changing fact (historilcal or myth, it doesn't matter) in order to fill an agenda. Same things with movie. There has to be a black, an asian, a gay even if it isn't accurate in a historical movie and that is STUPID. Luckily in France we don't have that.

They chose to change Hercules into something he isn't and it isn't fair. They could have create a character instead and it would have been fine. If Wonder Woman fight for the truth, then restoring this should be a good starting point.

George Perez wrote an eloquent story, in which the Amazons forgave Hercules for his crimes against, mythical and otherwise.

Hercules was so moved by this that he pledged to lend his strength to the Amazons, whenever they called upon it. In WOGs, he left Olympus - basically, Olympian 'Heaven' - and fought at the side of his Amazon sisters, against demons. Their forgiveness was more than political and symbolic; it was wholly transformative. In Marstonian terms, ..Hercules was conquered by the Amazons.

Of the most wasteful things John Byrne did in his WW run, ..returning Hercules to villainy was certainly one of them. Why? Hercules is never going to be a great super-villain, on the level of a Luthor or Joker...even a Circe. He's a big, not very intellectual rage machine, with one-note motivation, and, whenever Diana faces him, you can see his defeat coming, a mile away! Hercules is a filler story, on his BEST day, and, as Perez wisely understood, would do much better, as a recurring, superhuman male ally or member of the Wonder Family.

Furthermore, he's historically polysexual, having had love affairs with male (like his arms-bearer Hylas) and female, in his classical adventures. This gives the WW comic an LGBTQA and diversity-interest character, with roots in the Golden Age...no orientation-bending necessary [Etta]! On a sidenote, I've always wondered what kind of comic story might be told of a reunion, between Hercules and Hylas - even if, just a friendship - after all these centuries apart.

He's also a trophy of sorts. His friendship or devotion to Diana and her sisters is a testament to the true power of Wonder Woman. In our rush to lock the boys out of the treehouse...to assume that their very presence taints the comic, we cheat Diana out of a notch on her 'conquer war with love' belt.

For all our fan community's rosy recollections of the Perez's WW run, his eloquent redemption of Hercules, one of his most Marstonian works, ..always seems to get left, at the roadside. Hercules, Mister Genie and I Ching have as much place in the comic, as any other recurring male character, created expressly for use in the comic. Why so selective?

[marhawkman]

Not in this particular thread or discussion, that I can see. That's why I said "here", because I have myself in other discussions expressed my desire for a more ambigious Circe.

Oh you meant "this thread" and not "this forum" when you said "here", ok then...

I'd like to see them use Circe's children. In the legends she had several of them. Not sure if Lyta Milton is in current continuity but she'd be good I guess. In the myths she had a daughter named Cassiphone. Of course Lyta having Cassiphone as a sister is a lot like Cassandra Sandsmark having Lycus as a nephew or cousin. But funny.

[Agent Z]

George Perez wrote an eloquent story, in which the Amazons forgave Hercules for his crimes against, mythical and otherwise.

Hercules was so moved by this that he pledged to lend his strength to the Amazons, whenever they called upon it. In WOGs, he left Olympus - basically, Olympian 'Heaven' - and fought at the side of his Amazon sisters, against demons. Their forgiveness was more than political and symbolic; it was wholly transformative. In Marstonian terms, ..Hercules was conquered by the Amazons.

Of the most wasteful things John Byrne did in his WW run, ..returning Hercules to villainy was certainly one of them. Why? Hercules is never going to be a great super-villain, on the level of a Luthor or Joker...even a Circe. He's a big, not very intellectual rage machine, with one-note motivation, and, whenever Diana faces him, you can see his defeat coming, a mile away! Hercules is a filler story, on his BEST day, and, as Perez wisely understood, would do much better, as a recurring, superhuman male ally or member of the Wonder Family.

Furthermore, he's historically polysexual, having had love affairs with male (like his arms-bearer Hylas) and female, in his classical adventures. This gives the WW comic an LGBTQA and diversity-interest character, with roots in the Golden Age...no orientation-bending necessary [Etta]! On a sidenote, I've always wondered what kind of comic story might be told of a reunion, between Hercules and Hylas - even if, just a friendship - after all these centuries apart.

He's also a trophy of sorts. His friendship or devotion to Diana and her sisters is a testament to the true power of Wonder Woman. In our rush to lock the boys out of the treehouse...to assume that their very presence taints the comic, we cheat Diana out of a notch on her 'conquer war with love' belt.

For all our fan community's rosy recollections of the Perez's WW run, his eloquent redemption of Hercules, one of his most Marstonian works, ..always seems to get left, at the roadside. Hercules, Mister Genie and I Ching have as much place in the comic, as any other recurring male character, created expressly for use in the comic. Why so selective?

Perez never made Heracles an ally or member of the WW family. As for LGBT members just have Hippolyta and Philippus as a couple like Simone wnated to do.

I also feel some people are way to invested in this "conquer love with hate" narrative to the point of extremism. Diana isn't a failure if she doesn't get through to somebody who simply refuses to change their ways. And it always seems like people want the most hateful, irredeemable villain to be redeemed regardless of if they've even done anything to deserve it.

Why so selective? Because some characters are simply bad and shouldn't be around just because they were created. This isn't limited to WW either, bad characters get discarded all the time, why should the WW book be any different when it comes to removing characters with little to no redeeming value? Also, what does Sargon the Sorcerer have to do with Wonder Woman?

[Mel Dyer]

Perez never made Heracles an ally or member of the WW family. As for LGBT members just have Hippolyta and Philippus as a couple like Simone wnated to do.

I also feel some people are way to invested in this "conquer love with hate" narrative to the point of extremism. Diana isn't a failure if she doesn't get through to somebody who simply refuses to change their ways. And it always seems like people want the most hateful, irredeemable villain to be redeemed regardless of if they've even done anything to deserve it.

Why so selective? Because some characters are simply bad and shouldn't be around just because they were created. This isn't limited to WW either, bad characters get discarded all the time, why should the WW book be any different when it comes to removing characters with little to no redeeming value?

Agent Z is wrong.

George Perez and Len Wein had Hercules pledge his strength to the Amazons, whenever they might need it. With the "Challenge Of The Gods" story arc, he established Hercules (or Heracles), as a trusted ally. Later, in one of the WOGs comics, he was illustrated aiding the Amazons, in the field. I don't recall which issue I saw this in, but, anyone here is welcome to track that down.

Sometime later...

Perez fans, we did NOT imagine this. We can find Hercules (then, going by 'Heracles') fighting side by side with AND leading the Amazons, in battle, ..in WOGs #4! They quite literally follow him into the jaws of Hell, as though he were a sister Amazon, signifying he is as trusted an Amazon ally, as you will find. This happened, before John Byrne changed him back into a mustache-twirling, B-list, filler-story baddy, for no apparent reason - not even a solicited one. So, again...why so selective?

There are plenty of recurring female characters in WW, who have been written, awfully (Circe). They are brought back, without controversy. There appears to be a different standard for Hercules, Prince Jason, Mister Genie and I Ching, ..while eunuchs, like Nemesis and Steve Trevor continue to be welcome. Some of us have a problem with that.

[phonogram12]

Agent Z is wrong.

George Perez and Len Wein had Hercules pledge his strength to the Amazons, whenever they might need it. With the "Challenge Of The Gods" story arc, he established Hercules (or Heracles), as a trusted ally. Later, in one of the WOGs comics, he was illustrated aiding the Amazons, in the field. I don't recall which issue I saw this in, but, anyone here is welcome to track that down.

Sometime later...

Perez fans, we did NOT imagine this. We can find Hercules (then, going by 'Heracles') fighting side by side with AND leading the Amazons, in battle, ..in WOGs #4! They quite literally follow him into the jaws of Hell, as though he were a sister Amazon, signifying he is as trusted an Amazon ally, as you will find. This happened, before John Byrne changed him back into a mustache-twirling, B-list, filler-story baddy, for no apparent reason - not even a solicited one. So, again...why so selective?

There are plenty of recurring female characters in WW, who have been written, awfully (Circe). They are brought back, without controversy. There appears to be a different standard for Hercules, Prince Jason, Mister Genie and I Ching, ..while eunuchs, like Nemesis and Steve Trevor continue to be welcome. Some of us have a problem with that.

[Agent Z]

Agent Z is wrong.

George Perez and Len Wein had Hercules pledge his strength to the Amazons, whenever they might need it. With the "Challenge Of The Gods" story arc, he established Hercules (or Heracles), as a trusted ally. Later, in one of the WOGs comics, he was illustrated aiding the Amazons, in the field. I don't recall which issue I saw this in, but, anyone here is welcome to track that down.

Sometime later...

Perez fans, we did NOT imagine this. We can find Hercules (then, going by 'Heracles') fighting side by side with AND leading the Amazons, in battle, ..in WOGs #4! They quite literally follow him into the jaws of Hell, as though he were a sister Amazon, signifying he is as trusted an Amazon ally, as you will find. This happened, before John Byrne changed him back into a mustache-twirling, B-list, filler-story baddy, for no apparent reason - not even a solicited one. So, again...why so selective?

There are plenty of recurring female characters in WW, who have been written, awfully (Circe). They are brought back, without controversy. There appears to be a different standard for Hercules, Prince Jason, Mister Genie and I Ching, ..while eunuchs, like Nemesis and Steve Trevor continue to be welcome. Some of us have a problem with that.

Firstly, please stop using the word "eunuch" the same way certain people on the net use "cuckold". It makes you sound, at best immature and at worse, kind of a dick.

Secondly, you are imagining a double standard where none exists. Not every female character in the WW fandom is without controversy. Zola, Veronica Cale (who was criticized by many including yourself for being a Lex Luthor copycat), Genocide, various versions of Silver Swan and Cheetah, Aleka from Azzarello's run, any newly-named Amazon, hell even Cassie and Donna have dealt with hostility from fans. If you actually looked at the characters you are caping for with some level of objectivity you will see they are hated for reasons that have nothing to do with their gender:

* Mister Genie is a Silver Age character who hasn't been seen since that era ended and wasn't brought back post crisis. You are the first person I've seen bring him up as a valid choice for a supporting cast.

* I Ching is a racist stereotype from an era of the Wonder Woman comic that was so embarrassing, even the writer of that run has expressed shame towards it. If you want racial diversity in this comic, to use your own words, we can do better. In fact, we have done better with characters like the original version of Akila, Philippus, Ed Indelicato and Trevor Barnes (but I guess the former two don't mean anything to you because they're women and the latter two would probably be considered "eunuchs" by whatever weird standard you use).

* Jason is a badly written character from a poorly received run. Making him female would not change that. Furthermore, he brings nothing unique to the table. We already have a sibling for Diana (two if you count Nubia), a demigod sidekick in the form of Cassie and a character who serves as a foil in the form of Artemis. Jason was a crappy character on top of being completely superfluous. The WW comic would be better served developing the characters they actually have with a large fan base than wasting time and energy trying to fix a character no one asked for and very, very few people liked.

* No one has an issue with Heracles returning to the book. I'll concede I forgot about his role as an ally in a few stories but I don't think it's a coincidence that his history as an ally to Diana is very small compared to his history as a villain. A heroic Heracles is not a new idea so DC might as well corner the market on a villainous interpretation given Marvel has a heroic Heracles with evil Amazons. Finally, even I will admit that Heracles' redemption or at least the way both Marston and Perez have handled it is not something that has aged well. A woman forgiving her rapist and abuser is one thing, falling in love with him would get ripped apart in a modern age. Hell, you can't even call it a victory for Diana because his redemption had nothing to do with her. It was him being punished by the gods for his crimes that made him realize how monstrous he'd been.

[kjn]

Isn't she though ? If i remmeber correctly she has friendly discussion with Diana, in the anniversary issue for exemple.

Rucka is about the only writer who has attempted to write a more benevolent Circe, but he clearly leans into the expectation that Circe will be antagonistic towards Diana. We also gets very little from Rucka that engages with the mythological Circe, or with how he perceives her backstory or motivations.

[Pinsir]

Heracles should always be a rapist and should never be redeemed! We don't need any more franchises with a 'heroic' Hercules!

[Gurz]

Wonder Woman should have nuclear missiles placed to satilite at the orbit of the earth at her order 24/7. xD If anyone did anything wrong to her, she should nuke their asses. xD haahahaha

I can see the story name, The World Domination Wonder Woman. The satilite should be called The Wonder Dominator.

[SiegePerilous02]

masterwitcher88 and Doctor Bifrost has already covered Herakles and the Greek myths in detail, I don't have anything to add to what they have said.

However, I wish to point out that while there are arguments made here that Herakles was not a bad guy, or doesn't deserve to be a villain, no such argument has been raised about how DC handles Circe, who is a far less power-crazy and malevolent figure than nearly every DC depiction present her as.

I think it's because as far as the WW franchise is concerned, Circe is actually valuable and liked as an antagonist, whereas Hercules isn't really all that important (as an ally or villain) beyond being a "Joe Chill" like figure for the collective Amazons in the backstory. In American culture at least, we are also bombarded with many heroic portrayals of Hercules. We even have a (highly inaccurate, but extremely fun) Disney movie about him, plus the Marvel version, among many others. So it's a weird, kind of uncomfortable disconnect when we're presented with a violent rapist. It does make a lot of sense when we're dealing with the subversion of the Amazon myth and casting Hippolyta as the hero, perhaps more so than any other choice, but the likes of Theseus or even Ares himself could fulfill the same function without the disconnect.

There is also the fact that depictions of Circe (villainous or otherwise) aren't as common in wider pop culture, so there really isn't as much of a disconnect when we see her as a cool evil witch. And in many of the Greek myths, Heracles and Hippolyta are getting along fine until Hera drives one of them crazy and the other has to fight in self defense.

* No one has an issue with Heracles returning to the book. I'll concede I forgot about his role as an ally in a few stories but I don't think it's a coincidence that his history as an ally to Diana is very small compared to his history as a villain. A heroic Heracles is not a new idea so DC might as well corner the market on a villainous interpretation given Marvel has a heroic Heracles with evil Amazons. Finally, even I will admit that Heracles' redemption or at least the way both Marston and Perez have handled it is not something that has aged well. A woman forgiving her rapist and abuser is one thing, falling in love with him would get ripped apart in a modern age. Hell, you can't even call it a victory for Diana because his redemption had nothing to do with her. It was him being punished by the gods for his crimes that made him realize how monstrous he'd been.

I don't think Marston ever redeemed Hercules. As far as I know, he was just the violent but buffoonish bastard who was the villain Hippolyta faced in the backstory but didn't have a role beyond that.

Kanigher or some other Silver Age writer had him turn over a new leaf after ascending to Olympus and he was the one who blessed Diana with strength, but that wasn't Marston.

[Pinsir]

Yeah, in Wonder Woman Vol 1 #105 Kanigher rewrites the origin story of the Amazons and one of the changes is that WW is gifted her power by the Greek pantheon, including Hercules. Its also the first story that suggests Wonder Woman is thousands of years old and that she has a biological father named Theo. All and all, its a good story even if I dislike certain changes made by Kanigher.

[Mel Dyer]

...I don't think Marston ever redeemed Hercules. As far as I know, he was just the violent but buffoonish bastard who was the villain Hippolyta faced in the backstory but didn't have a role beyond that.

Kanigher or some other Silver Age writer had him turn over a new leaf after ascending to Olympus and he was the one who blessed Diana with strength, but that wasn't Marston.

I don't think Dr. Marston ever redeemed Hercules. Even Kanigher, after making him one of Diana's patrons, wrote him, as an unrepentant jerk.

I think George Perez's redemption of Hercules, followed by the demigod's pledging his strength to the Amazons, was VERY Marstonian, ..and that used to be a lauded thing, in our fan community - that 'conquering war with love' thing. When, in WOGs #4 [!], Hercules leaves Heaven to fight at the Amazons' side, honoring his bond, and leads them into battle against (at the time) their worst enemy, the transformative power of Wonder Woman is even further realized. For those of us, who are fans of the best of Perez AND Marston, this might have been one of the high points of the otherwise unforgivably horrible WOGs. Again, this used to be a celebrated thing in our community, and it was a HUGE thing, considering everything that had transpired, between Hercules and the Amazons, before.

Why Hercules? He is one of the few heroic males in the WW comic, who isn't a eunuch. Unlike Steve and Nemesis, his masculinity, sullied as it is, is shaped by his own individual code of ethics - enhanced by, but, never dependent on, ..the favor of the leading lady. At best, Perez gives us a potentially complex anti-hero in Hercules. For that reason, I don't think we can pretend WOGs #4 never happened to fit a misandrous narrative that Wonder Woman, herself, would never subscribe to.

Again, I think we are being very selective, when Diana treating Cheetah and Circe, both mass-murderers of mortals and Amazons, with compassion, goes without controversy, ..but, the forgiveness of Perez's Hercules, who stands with the Amazons in their darkest hours, cannot be accepted. It's what some of us are decrying, as controversial or problematic, that is questionably selective and illustrative of a double standard. I think we have to have the courage to be honest about the unfairness of that, if we're espousing the principles of our fictional avatar, Wonder Woman.

No, Dr. Marston did not redeem or forgive Hercules, but, if we still believe in her, ..Wonder Woman can.

[Pinsir]

I liked the part in JLA/Avengers where Wonder Woman encounters Hercules and beats the crap out of him while calling him a rapist.

[Psy-lock]

Finally, even I will admit that Heracles' redemption or at least the way both Marston and Perez have handled it is not something that has aged well. A woman forgiving her rapist and abuser is one thing, falling in love with him would get ripped apart in a modern age.

To be fair, it was implied that Heracles was in a mad fewer induced by Hera when he did what he did.