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  1. #1906

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    My personal preference:

    Amazons created by the Greek goddesses (or just Aphrodite), as adults, and living without growing old on Themyscira. I found Perez's use of "souls saved in the womb of Gaia" a nice touch. The Amazons are 3-10 times stronger and faster than impressive specimens of humanity in Man's World, and of course millennia of training and fighting against monsters from Doom's Doorway (or other foes that somehow get to the island) make them quite puissant.

    They don't have children on the island. (Some one-off Amazons who leave the island do, but they don't come back with children.) I do sort of like the idea that every, let us say, 900 years, the goddesses create a new host of Amazons, kind of a new generation. (Which also helps deal with the fact that, every now and then, a bunch of Amazons get killed.)

    Hippolyta, yearning for a child and heir, and perhaps divinely inspired, creates a clay statue of an infant. The goddesses (maybe just Aphrodite) bring it to life, and give the now flesh-and-blood girl gifts of power that make her more powerful than any of her sisters. She is raised, and trained, on Themyscira by her mother and the other Amazons.

    She competes, disguised, in the Contest of Champions. But - and here's my head-canon detail that's never been tried out - she knows that that's not fair, because of her powers. So first she goes to an Amazon mage (typically, Magala) and asks her to secretly cast a spell (with Diana's willingness and assistance) to temporarily take away her special powers and store them in a jar. (And what Magala might do with a few drops of that power, without telling anyone, might be some other story.) Now, Diana is at something of a disadvantage, because she's never trained without her powers before, and has to adjust in real time to competing without them.

    But with Diana's courage, fortitude, and will, she wins! And is sent to Man's World, where she becomes Wonder Woman. And so on...

    (I also prefer a Donna who is human and born in Man's World, winds up on Themysicra for a while, and - in a manner not planned or easily repeated - gains powers not unlike Diana's. But at least spends a goodly portion of her life, either before or after, living as a girl in Man's World, so she's not so much a "fish out of water" as Diana is. And I also prefer a Cassie who cleverly gathers together some mystical implements from Greek myth, which give her superpowers. If she has some divine ancestry, that's okay. But I think making her Zeus's daughter was a bit much.)

    But that's just me.
    Doctor Bifrost

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  2. #1907

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana becoming the God of War was so inconsequential it might as well not have happened. She didn't really do anything that she wasn't already doing.
    Part of why this, and related details, made no sense to me.
    Doctor Bifrost

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  3. #1908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post

    Anyway, as part of this: when Diana was killed in Byrne's story - which, in theory, was still working with the Perez origin - Ares suddenly bursts out: "I'm Hippolyta's father, so that's my dead granddaughter there!", or words to that effect. Which is true in some versions of the original Greek myths, but has never been the case in Wonder Woman. And everybody just - accepts it without a word. No "wait a minute, that doesn't make sense!" Or "You are? We never knew that!" Or "Well, why didn't you bring this up at a previous time, like when you were trying to kill Diana?" It's just suddenly true.
    This also means that Ares allowed Heracles to rape and enslave his daughter something he never would have allowed in the myths to any of his children.

    At which point Zeus says (and I'm paraphrasing) "That means she's my great-granddaughter, so I shouldn't just leave her dead!" (As if Zeus didn't have tons of mortal great-grandchildren, most of whom died without much attention from him.)
    Isn’t one interpretation of the Trojan War that Zeus orchestrated the war to kill off as much of his mortal offspring as possible out of fear they would overthrow him.

  4. #1909
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    This also means that Ares allowed Heracles to rape and enslave his daughter something he never would have allowed in the myths to any of his children
    Heracles didn't rape Hippolyta in the myth, he seduced her. But the comics had to change this for men to be jerks. Another bad decision...

    Isn’t one interpretation of the Trojan War that Zeus orchestrated the war to kill off as much of his mortal offspring as possible out of fear they would overthrow him.
    Zeus didn't planed the Troyan War, Eris did because she was pissed to not have been invited to a wedding.

  5. #1910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manakel View Post
    Heracles didn't rape Hippolyta in the myth, he seduced her. But the comics had to change this for men to be jerks. Another bad decision...
    The WW comics have had plenty of sympathetic and heroic men.

  6. #1911
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Rucka did this in year one and it both makes sense and doesn't. From my head canon, the gods give Diana life so, she at this point is a regular amazon. Now, amazons possess super strength, speed, etc... so it's nothing to slouch over. After the contest, the gods bless Diana once she is on mans world, basically a power boost before her god fight.
    No. Zeus is still cannon. It's made clear we have Jason. Rucka didn't want to deal with New 52. He just wanted to tell a story. They simply unlocked what she already had. Rucka never gave a hint of Diana's origin. Only her upbringing. I honestly would have it be that Hippolyta kept both kids. I would really like that.


    I often like the idea that the Amazons might also have a collection of ancient weapons that are too dangerous. Maybe this is how we can some of the Amazons to leave. Maybe the Banas can have originally been on the Island and left.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 03-30-2020 at 11:18 AM.

  7. #1912
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    he WW comics have had plenty of sympathetic and heroic men.
    Not the point. I dislike (vehemently) changing fact (historilcal or myth, it doesn't matter) in order to fill an agenda. Same things with movie. There has to be a black, an asian, a gay even if it isn't accurate in a historical movie and that is STUPID. Luckily in France we don't have that.

    They chose to change Hercules into something he isn't and it isn't fair. They could have create a character instead and it would have been fine. If Wonder Woman fight for the truth, then restoring this should be a good starting point.

  8. #1913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manakel View Post
    Not the point. I dislike (vehemently) changing fact (historilcal or myth, it doesn't matter) in order to fill an agenda. Same things with movie. There has to be a black, an asian, a gay even if it isn't accurate in a historical movie and that is STUPID. Luckily in France we don't have that.

    They chose to change Hercules into something he isn't and it isn't fair. They could have create a character instead and it would have been fine. If Wonder Woman fight for the truth, then restoring this should be a good starting point.
    The only reason you think that is because their stories were never told to the public. But go a head, live in ignorance, no need to leave kindergarten for our sake.

    I'm sorry, do you think that the Disney version of Hercules was accurate? Let me give you a Mythology lesson.

    Hercules has among other things...

    1) Killed his music teacher Lindos after Lindos struck him for being a poor pupil
    2) Cut off the noses and ears of Erginos' heralds
    3) Fed Diomedes to his man-eating horses
    4) Killed an Amazon queen and with Theseus abducted an Amazon for later ransom (see later)
    5) Killed the Moliones at the Isthmian Games as revenge for having defeated his army when he was ill
    6) Raped the priestess Auge during a festival of Athena after drinking too much wine
    7) Killed Iphitos for not handing over his daughter Iole as promised (despite being married to Deianeira at the time)
    8) Enslaves the inhabitants of Omphale
    9) Slew Syleus' daughter Xenodike and burned his vineyard

    There are other things, I sincerely doubt that all 50 daughters of Thespios consented that night.

    Myth Hercules did not subjugate the Amazons (he only seduced their queen and then killed like 13 of them, including the queen, but I guess we'll ignore that too). He did however do all those things mentioned above. So, to say that the comics turned Hercules into something he is not is a flat out lie. Hercules killed innocent people, he conquered cities, he's enslaved people, and he is a rapist. The comic didn't really do anything but, portray the REAL Hercules.

    Edit: And Perez did give Herc a redemption ark in Challenge of the Gods. A bit undeserving frankly and it was rather quick.
    Last edited by Perseus; 03-30-2020 at 02:42 PM.
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  9. #1914

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manakel View Post
    Not the point. I dislike (vehemently) changing fact (historilcal or myth, it doesn't matter) in order to fill an agenda. Same things with movie. There has to be a black, an asian, a gay even if it isn't accurate in a historical movie and that is STUPID. Luckily in France we don't have that.

    They chose to change Hercules into something he isn't and it isn't fair. They could have create a character instead and it would have been fine. If Wonder Woman fight for the truth, then restoring this should be a good starting point.
    First of all, you said they made the change to Hercules "for men to be jerks" - not just for Hercules to be a jerk - so the fact that the comic does have positive portrayals of men is very much to the point.

    Second of all, if you don't approve of modern-day comic-book stories changing the "facts" of mythological stories, then Wonder Woman is not the comic for you. Marston changed the Amazons from the Greek mythological versions (of which there were, of course, several conflicting ones) from Day One. And he did it for a reason, too. You see, the Greek myths also had an agenda, reflecting the highly misogynistic and patriarchal Greek cultures. Powerful, independent women were considered, at best, a threat, and at worst, monstrous. They had to be seduced, or made submissive, or turned into wives, or otherwise subdued, or they represented a problem. Marston flipped the script to present the story from what he imagined the Amazon point of view might be. So you're not going to get the original myths there.

    Another poster pointed out the many crimes of Hercules in the original myths (thank you, masterwitcher88, for your scholarly contribution), including rape, so the idea that a modern fictionalized version in which he's a rapist is somehow "unfair" to him seems a little off to me. But one of them is key: in the most common version of the myth, when Hera prompts Hercules and the Amazons to fight, Hercules winds up killing Hippolyta, taking the girdle, and fleeing. So if we stuck to you plan of treating the original myths as unchangeable (which even the Greeks didn't do, hence the multiple versions of many myths): no Hippolyta.
    Last edited by Doctor Bifrost; 03-30-2020 at 07:17 PM.
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  10. #1915
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    The only reason you think that is because their stories were never told to the public. But go a head, live in ignorance, no need to leave kindergarten for our sake.

    I'm sorry, do you think that the Disney version of Hercules was accurate? Let me give you a Mythology lesson.

    Hercules has among other things...

    1) Killed his music teacher Lindos after Lindos struck him for being a poor pupil
    2) Cut off the noses and ears of Erginos' heralds
    3) Fed Diomedes to his man-eating horses
    4) Killed an Amazon queen and with Theseus abducted an Amazon for later ransom (see later)
    5) Killed the Moliones at the Isthmian Games as revenge for having defeated his army when he was ill
    6) Raped the priestess Auge during a festival of Athena after drinking too much wine
    7) Killed Iphitos for not handing over his daughter Iole as promised (despite being married to Deianeira at the time)
    8) Enslaves the inhabitants of Omphale
    9) Slew Syleus' daughter Xenodike and burned his vineyard

    There are other things, I sincerely doubt that all 50 daughters of Thespios consented that night.

    Myth Hercules did not subjugate the Amazons (he only seduced their queen and then killed like 13 of them, including the queen, but I guess we'll ignore that too). He did however do all those things mentioned above. So, to say that the comics turned Hercules into something he is not is a flat out lie. Hercules killed innocent people, he conquered cities, he's enslaved people, and he is a rapist. The comic didn't really do anything but, portray the REAL Hercules.

    Edit: And Perez did give Herc a redemption ark in Challenge of the Gods. A bit undeserving frankly and it was rather quick.
    I wasn't thinking about the Disney movie obviously, so no need to extrapolate. You could have just ask instead of going on your high horses.
    And Yes Hercules did bad things, almost everyone at that time did bad things. But he didn't rape Hippolyta

    1) you are right about it, he plead self-defense though and was acquitted
    2) other times, other manners, it was war. It was to send a message.
    3) yeah, the same Diomedes who feed the said horses with people. The guy was a serial killer...i won't cry about it.
    4) As i said he didn't rape her, but he did killed several of them when they attacked him in response to his theft.
    5) i don't remember that but i would like a source please.
    6) same
    7) i know he did something like that but i lack details, again a source is welcome
    8) if i remember correctly, it is tied to 7), but Hercules was the one being enslaved by the queen for attonement. She eventually released him and get married.
    9) i don't remember that, source please ?

    As for the daughters of Thespios, they were forced by their father who wants her to have children with Hercules. He thought he was sleeping with the same girl.


    The point is not "does Hercules is a good or bad hero ?" Sometimes he was good, sometimes he wasn't. That's the nature of the greek myths. Same for the gods. Do you think Athena is a good goddess ? Most of the times she is but Arachnee disagree. And Hera ? Being cheated on doesn't give right to kill children and their mothers. Is Zeus the worst ? he was also a protector god.

    I think everyone here (me include) hate the rapist amazons arc from N52 and yet it was mythicaly accurate.
    Why do i have a problem with Hercules being not accurate and not the amazons ? Beat me, i have no idea.

    What i know is i dislike the fact that something as vague as a myth being used as an absolute when they are just educational messages and allegories of the past

  11. #1916
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manakel View Post
    I wasn't thinking about the Disney movie obviously, so no need to extrapolate. You could have just ask instead of going on your high horses.
    And Yes Hercules did bad things, almost everyone at that time did bad things. But he didn't rape Hippolyta

    1) you are right about it, he plead self-defense though and was acquitted
    2) other times, other manners, it was war. It was to send a message.
    3) yeah, the same Diomedes who feed the said horses with people. The guy was a serial killer...i won't cry about it.
    4) As i said he didn't rape her, but he did killed several of them when they attacked him in response to his theft.
    5) i don't remember that but i would like a source please.
    6) same
    7) i know he did something like that but i lack details, again a source is welcome
    8) if i remember correctly, it is tied to 7), but Hercules was the one being enslaved by the queen for attonement. She eventually released him and get married.
    9) i don't remember that, source please ?

    As for the daughters of Thespios, they were forced by their father who wants her to have children with Hercules. He thought he was sleeping with the same girl.


    The point is not "does Hercules is a good or bad hero ?" Sometimes he was good, sometimes he wasn't. That's the nature of the greek myths. Same for the gods. Do you think Athena is a good goddess ? Most of the times she is but Arachnee disagree. And Hera ? Being cheated on doesn't give right to kill children and their mothers. Is Zeus the worst ? he was also a protector god.

    I think everyone here (me include) hate the rapist amazons arc from N52 and yet it was mythicaly accurate.
    Why do i have a problem with Hercules being not accurate and not the amazons ? Beat me, i have no idea.

    What i know is i dislike the fact that something as vague as a myth being used as an absolute when they are just educational messages and allegories of the past
    That's more or less the general point I'm trying to make. We aren't looking at it from their time, we are looking at it from ours. Then, on top of that, we have various other people's input through out the centuries. So, when you say something is "unfair" to Herc, that simply isn't the case. No, I'm not a super fan of Athena; and Medusa I'm sure has a say in that regard too;-) And Hera? well, I understand her, when you're the Goddess of women and marriage, and your Husband (who is more powerful then you and in a better position) sleeps around with other people (usually as an animal or simply rapes said women), what can you do? Last time you punished your husband, he punished you back 10 fold and made a mockery out of you. How do you assert your power? I don't think for a second what she did was "right" but, as you said, different time. As for Zeus; he was the protector mainly of Kings and laws. What does that say about the Greek's laws and Kings?

    Read Timothy Gantz's 'Early Greek Myths', it's basically "who said what and when about person x". Gantz also takes into account vase, temple and other art, since that can often be a good source of knowledge.

    Herc was also known for murdering his wife and children (and possibly his brother Iphicles' children), we have the flipside. Herakles' murdering of his children is attested to as early as the Kypria (8th/7th century), and it's put down to madness. However, it's not until Euripides (5th century) that not only is Hera the cause of the madness, but Herakles killed his wife Megara as well. so, you only have to figure out which one to believe ;-)

    I can tell you off the top of my head that for #8, Herc was paying penance for stealing the cattle of Hermes. His penance being serving the Queen. His daily chores included cooking and cleaning. This was viewed by the Greeks as emasculating, as I'm sure it is today. So, once his servitude was over and the queen let him leave. He came back and enslaved the whole city as his revenge.

    Hippolyta and Herc is a story and this is a nice example of synthesis messing things up. The earliest versions of the myth suggest that Herakles merely had to defeat the Amazons in battle and bring back the girdle as proof of his victory; 5th Century Southern Italian vase art shows peaceful negotiations with the Amazons; Dion of Prusa has Hippolyte seduce Herakles.
    Later on, Apollonios and Diodoros say that Herakles abducted then ransomed Melanippe in return for Hippolyte's girdle. It's only when you get to pseudo-Apollodoros that Hera, disguised as an Amazon, stirs up trouble after Hippolyte promises to give Herakles the girdle and Herakles ends up killing Hippolyte in battle. Gantz says that Apollodoros probably conflated two different traditions, taking the myths about negotiations and the myths about battles and sticking them together to create one story.
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  12. #1917
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    there is a funny thing about the 50 daughters of Thespios : what are the chance that all of them have the same menstrual cycle and end up being pregnant ?

    And thanks for the info, i'll look into it.

  13. #1918
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    masterwitcher88 and Doctor Bifrost has already covered Herakles and the Greek myths in detail, I don't have anything to add to what they have said.

    However, I wish to point out that while there are arguments made here that Herakles was not a bad guy, or doesn't deserve to be a villain, no such argument has been raised about how DC handles Circe, who is a far less power-crazy and malevolent figure than nearly every DC depiction present her as.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  14. #1919
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    masterwitcher88 and Doctor Bifrost has already covered Herakles and the Greek myths in detail, I don't have anything to add to what they have said.

    However, I wish to point out that while there are arguments made here that Herakles was not a bad guy, or doesn't deserve to be a villain, no such argument has been raised about how DC handles Circe, who is a far less power-crazy and malevolent figure than nearly every DC depiction present her as.
    Speak for yourself. I know I've brought that up in discussions.

  15. #1920
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Speak for yourself. I know I've brought that up in discussions.
    Not in this particular thread or discussion, that I can see. That's why I said "here", because I have myself in other discussions expressed my desire for a more ambigious Circe.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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