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  1. #781
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I think Grail is going to need years to build an independent rep before she can be seen as anything but Darkseid-jr. at best, especially if she, like him, is chasing the anti-life equation. If she serves him, her status is even lower. And I don't see him being permanently killed off to make room for her.
    It would take years to establish a real, true nemesis anyway, regardless of what their background is. It's very rare to have a villain show up and see fans immediately latch onto them and place them at (or even near) the top of the rogues gallery. So yeah, it'd take a lot of time and effort to get Grail up there, but you'd probably have to put in that time no matter what.
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  2. #782
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    I still think the most natural archenemy for Wonder Woman should be Doctor Psycho.

    Cheetah can still take the top spot as the most personal enemy, but ideologically, Diana's opposite is Doctor Psycho.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I agree. Diana lacks for a proper Sinestro/Zoom/Black Adam/Ras al Ghul to call her own.
    Actually she had one before the reboot; Devastation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I still think the most natural archenemy for Wonder Woman should be Doctor Psycho.

    Cheetah can still take the top spot as the most personal enemy, but ideologically, Diana's opposite is Doctor Psycho.
    I'd argue Zeus would be a better fit.

  4. #784
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I think Diana would be better served by an arch villain that is not subordinate to another. There is no parental or boss figure for Sinestro, Zoom, or Ra's when they show up. Each of them is the focal point, with no figure that overshadows them, no other villain they are defined in relation to. Grail is "Darkseid's daughter" - defined by her connection to another villain. She might be able to outgrow, certainly, but I think a "from scratch" villain would be a much better choice.
    The Darkseid’s Daughter connection doesn’t bother me so much, probably mostly because I don’t think of a Grail as an archenemy. She a great and powerful enemy, but more of an opposite number enemy. Ares, Cheetah, and Circe have served as well as arch enemies in different respects across different eras, so I’d put Grail, Devastation, Superwoman, etc. in the evil doppelgänger category.

    I enjoy that the Fourth World has a stronger tie to the Wonder mythos now and not just the Super mythos. I’ve wanted the New Gods to branch out for a while now, so it’s good to see them being used in the Wonder world, Lantern cosmos, etc.

  5. #785
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'd argue Zeus would be a better fit.
    In some ways, yes, but Zeus has the same issue as Ares: he's of distinctly limited repeat usability, and really too powerful for most stories.

    You want these villains to be repeat offenders.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #786
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I still think the most natural archenemy for Wonder Woman should be Doctor Psycho.

    Cheetah can still take the top spot as the most personal enemy, but ideologically, Diana's opposite is Doctor Psycho.
    Dr. Psycho definitely doesn't get the respect he deserves in the rogues gallery. He's like every fear and concern the Amazons have about Man's World given physical form and tremendous psychic power (which plays nicely into the whole emotional abuse/incel stuff). He's everything wrong with men balled up in one creepy little package. And he's great (for a villain, I mean).

    Is he archnemesis material? Possibly. He's everything Diana is fighting against, her opposite number in almost every single way. But does he have what it takes to go the whole distance and become the arch-baddie? I dunno, probably not as he's usually handled. He'd have to get a overhaul before reaching that kind of potential, because so far his goals and motivations are too small.
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  7. #787
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    A combination of post-Crisis Psycho's power set mixed with Morrison' Earth One version (where he is of average height and looks, not a frightening looking dwarf, which is pretty dated and insensitive) would help him be a better prominent nemesis. His slimy "Nice Guy/pick artist" persona is sadly still relevant to our times, and I think the civilian name change to "Leon Zeiko," his lion headed cane and the mane-like hair all conveying that he is the modern equivalent of Hercules (in terms of attitude and sexism) is pretty great. There's a lot of potential there.

    But as an arch nemesis? I'm not so sure. There's something about taking the ultimate female superhero, pretty much the only true solo act we have in the Big Two and making her arch be...a dude who really hates women that strikes me as kind of lazy. It's in a way making it all about her gender. What he represents and his goals being so pathetically petty and small (which are ultimately appropriate for a misogynistic scumbag) are a perfect fit for this franchise and it makes him one of her top enemies, but #1 would be pushing it. And the WW mythos is all about being a place where all the complex dynamics we typically see between make characters can be applies to women instead. So I'd prefer Diana's #1 personal nemesis to be another woman, because we don't get women in such a position in comics. Which is why I think Cheetah, Circe or even Cale are better candidates, they are offering something rare when utilized well.

    I'd also at some point like to see a male superhero with a female arch nemesis who ISN'T a sexy femme fatale that he has sexual tension with.

  8. #788
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Good points man.

    Haven't read Earth-1 volume 2. Not sure if I ever will, though I thought Morrison's first volume was....interesting.

    Honestly though.....I'm not sold on the idea of making Psycho of average height and looks. Yeah, it's probably insensitive that one of the only dwarf characters in comics is a ugly little monster but....hey, some dwarves are ugly little monsters. They're people too, and are just as capable of being d-bags as the rest of us. I know, it's not great optics at all and dwarves (or whatever the appropriate term is now?) deserve positive representation just like everyone else, but....what does changing Psycho actually achieve? A group of people who're barely represented in comics lose one of the few they have (and yeah he's a bastard but still, he's there). I'd rather see more dwarves introduced in comics than see one of the few already out there changed for fear of not doing representation right.
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  9. #789
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    It would take years to establish a real, true nemesis anyway, regardless of what their background is. It's very rare to have a villain show up and see fans immediately latch onto them and place them at (or even near) the top of the rogues gallery. So yeah, it'd take a lot of time and effort to get Grail up there, but you'd probably have to put in that time no matter what.
    Honestly I like Grail much more than Cheetah who despite Rucka's revamp remains pretty boring. That's mostly why I don't mind the upcoming story where Cheetah destroys the lasso and bracelets, it puts her on a higher tier. Instead of just paying lip service to her questionable title of arch-nemesis it actually seals the deal.

    Circe like Ares or Zeus is best as an antagonist who grants superpowers to new enemies and stirs the pot.

    In my opinion her biggest bad guy should be Dr. Psycho for reasons already stated up thread.

  10. #790
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I think Diana's natural enemy is going to be a physical challenge to her, because WW is such a physical character, and Grail is certainly that. I think this archenemy is one, whose life's mission sets her on a collision course, with Wonder Woman, ..and Grail, being an anti-life goddess, is that, also. Where Grail is concerned, I think there is one thing missing, however, ..and that is fanaticism - in my mind, that's an opposing mission. Grail doesn't seem to care about anything, except following Daddyseid's lead, right now, and we don't even know what her reasons are for that. With so much going for her - best of all, her Amazon heritage...
    I think the best thing they could do is have Grail basically get kicked out of Apokalips because Darkseid doesn't want her hanging around. The idea that Darkseid doesn't have any use for her would make an interesting opportunity for her to do her own thing as a person and not be just another lackey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Honestly I like Grail much more than Cheetah who despite Rucka's revamp remains pretty boring. That's mostly why I don't mind the upcoming story where Cheetah destroys the lasso and bracelets, it puts her on a higher tier. Instead of just paying lip service to her questionable title of arch-nemesis it actually seals the deal.
    This sort of thing is why my favorite Cheetah story is one that didn't even happen in the comics, and was technically a side story in the episode where it happened. (The Legion of Doom used time travel to remove 3 of the most powerful Leaguers, Luthor became Green Lantern of Earth, and Sinestro redirected Superman's space pod to some planet that had a red sun.)

    It's when Priscilla Rich defeated Diana in Challenge of the Superfriends to BECOME Wonder Woman herself thus leaving Diana as just another Amazon. She's a villain so the writers had her cheat to win the Amazon tournament, but she was still crowned winner of the tournament.
    https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/File:Chee...r_Friends).jpg

    It was awesome when Circe did it in the comics too, but Circe used god-tier magic to do it rather than going back in time to prevent Diana from ever becoming WW.
    https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/File:Circe_004.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Actually she had one before the reboot; Devastation.
    Deva is a great character to have as an evil WW to be sure. I have to question her status as arch-enemy given how few stories Deva was actually in. But still great character to have floating around.

  11. #791
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I think Diana would be better served by an arch villain that is not subordinate to another. There is no parental or boss figure for Sinestro, Zoom, or Ra's when they show up. Each of them is the focal point, with no figure that overshadows them, no other villain they are defined in relation to. Grail is "Darkseid's daughter" - defined by her connection to another villain. She might be able to outgrow, certainly, but I think a "from scratch" villain would be a much better choice.
    However, Grail and Diana make interesting contrasts as products of their respective upbringings. I do agree that Grail would need separating from Daddy-seid to realize her full potential as an adversary for WW. Maybe give her the Kalibak treatment, have Darkseid decide she's a disappointment, and send her on a path of proving her worth.

  12. #792
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Grail is like Bane or Zod: The Shadow of the main hero who has their powers but not their morals. And like Bane or Zod I can definitely see a lot of potential, but it hasn’t really been tapped yet. Grail fulfilling the “evil Amazon” role will hopefully keep DC from messing with the Amazons to make them into monsters as they’ve done in the past. But what I need from Grail is to know what she wants. Both Bane and Zod have goals even though they haven’t always been written well. Bane wants to break Batman and take control of Gotham. Zod wants revenge on Kal for Jor imprisoning him, and he wants to build a New Krypton. They both have personal petty goals and much more grander goals. Grail clearly hates Diana for imprisoning her and that works great as a personal petty goal but what’s her long term aim? She recently tried to take the Themyscarian throne: Why? Why does she want it? What was she planning to do with it? There’s some good potential there it just needs to be developed more.

  13. #793
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    While I agree Grail would have to be fairly well removed from Darkseid's plots and stories, there is a pretty great parallel with Diana here; both are daughters of rulers, both are largely on their own and have their own goals and motivations (Grail did spent almost all her life away from her father before Darkseid War and whatever happened during Robinson's arc), but both ultimately have to answer the summons when/if their parent calls.

    Diana and Grail are both gods (to varying degrees anyway, Diana's status is usually sorta murky), both princesses, both Amazons. Grail could be a fantastic broken mirror villain.

    Cheetah.....blah. Great concept, she's been in some great stories but.....the whole is less than the sum of its parts somehow. I've rarely, if ever, really enjoyed the character though I have greatly enjoyed some of the stories she's been used in. Rucka is a great example here; Rebirth gave us one of the best Cheetah stories/arcs I've ever seen and it was greatly enjoyable.....but Cheetah herself still comes of lacking, somehow.
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  14. #794
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    The issue with Grail is this. Cheetah is more well-known and has not just had some great stories. Just been there since the beginning. The question is can she stand not being Darkseid's daughter. Much like Diana. How much more important will Darksied be than Grail?

  15. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Good points man.

    Haven't read Earth-1 volume 2. Not sure if I ever will, though I thought Morrison's first volume was....interesting.

    Honestly though.....I'm not sold on the idea of making Psycho of average height and looks. Yeah, it's probably insensitive that one of the only dwarf characters in comics is a ugly little monster but....hey, some dwarves are ugly little monsters. They're people too, and are just as capable of being d-bags as the rest of us. I know, it's not great optics at all and dwarves (or whatever the appropriate term is now?) deserve positive representation just like everyone else, but....what does changing Psycho actually achieve? A group of people who're barely represented in comics lose one of the few they have (and yeah he's a bastard but still, he's there). I'd rather see more dwarves introduced in comics than see one of the few already out there changed for fear of not doing representation right.
    As far as I am aware, little people aren't exactly fans of Dr Psycho and he's one of those characters that only a few WW fans actually like. Making him average height takes away nothing, especially since him being a misogynist is his main hook. Introducing more little people into the comics isn't a bad idea either but it doesn't change the perception of Dr Psycho.

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