Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Gaius]

I understand your frustration, and I don't disagree. However, from a marketing standpoint, "Year One" immediately tells your consumers that this is an easy jumping-in point for a character they may want to know more about. Also, Diana's Year One trade released around the time of the 2017 film, so anyone looking for a trade to help them get into the character's comic book persona, Year One lets them know they'll get an easy and approachable tale with a clear beginning and ending.

From what I remember of comic book trade sales that year, Year One did had an amazing run on the charts.

No, I definitely get why DC has gone in on "Year One" as their new origin go-to given how popular Batman's is. Just minor gripe/preference on my part for titles that are a bit more unique to their character. Gods and Mortals, Birthright, even bad stories that are bad/underwhelming like "Emerald Dawn", etc.

[Agent Z]

When people talk about Diana redeeming her villains, it often comes across like they feel the onus is on Diana to find non-violent solutions and not the villains. This comes across as rather unempathetic to Diana or the villains' victims.

[Alpha]

I mean, the reason why people talk about it is because of Marston. That the greatest strength of Diana was thar she could conquer the world with love.

[Agent Z]

I know it's because of Marston. That isn't my point.

[Alpha]

It's not about duty or obligation, it's about her having an extraordinary power unlike any other hero.

From my point of view, she should have an infectuous amount of excitement for life. Her redemption of others isn't caused by superior morality, it's because she has an infectuous life force. She doesn't have to redeem everyone, but she feels fulfilled when she pushes people to be their best.

[PopQuezy]

When people talk about Diana redeeming her villains, it often comes across like they feel the onus is on Diana to find non-violent solutions and not the villains. This comes across as rather unempathetic to Diana or the villains' victims.

I completely agree! This comes from my real-life pet peeve when people act as if it's worse to "give up" on someone than it is for the person to continuously commit acts that demand you walk away from them.

I'm actually wouldn't mind a story where Diana gives up on Cheetah or Silver Swan or whomever. Part of being an agent of change and having an endless and tremendous supply of love to give to others is realizing when some people are not deserving of that love. That doesn't mean Diana has to kill them. But it does mean Diana should see them as the threats to humanity that they are.

[Gaius]

When people talk about Diana redeeming her villains, it often comes across like they feel the onus is on Diana to find non-violent solutions and not the villains. This comes across as rather unempathetic to Diana or the villains' victims.

I can understand the mindset. I’m not particularly interested in any story involving Harley Quinn that’s about her feeling sorry for herself and doesn’t end with her being tossed in the slammer.

Feel a WW example of this is I think Golden Age Paula’s redemption is one of the more poorly aged things about the Marston run. Though I guess this comes with tying Paula to a real world evil like the Nazis.

[SiegePerilous02]

When people talk about Diana redeeming her villains, it often comes across like they feel the onus is on Diana to find non-violent solutions and not the villains. This comes across as rather unempathetic to Diana or the villains' victims.

The villains won't be open to finding non-violent solutions if they are still villains, so why would the onus be on them? Diana has both the power to do it and the desire to resolve it with as minimal violence as possible and set them up for possible reform if it can be done. But that doesn't mean she's stupid (ex: Max Lord being a very present danger to even someone of her power and having no desire to stop necessitated her killing him).

I think quick and lazy redemption stories that don't put much emphasis on the victims are a problem in fiction outside of WW. When we have villains go to Reform Island, I'd like more stories where we see the actual process of rehabilitation and care given to the victims and their perspectives and how they are under no obligation to forgive anybody to matter how genuinely remorseful a former villain is. And the reformed villain will just have to learn to live with it

I can understand the mindset. I’m not particularly interested in any story involving Harley Quinn that’s about her feeling sorry for herself and doesn’t end with her being tossed in the slammer.

Feel a WW example of this is I think Golden Age Paula’s redemption is one of the more poorly aged things about the Marston run. Though I guess this comes with tying Paula to a real world evil like the Nazis.

Harley as she currently is is an obnoxious example at reformed villainy that we could use less of.

Paula's magical fix story with Gerta didn't sit well, but as Paula never returned to villainy I think she has more potential than Harley even with the original background. We just need more elaboration on the process and her dealing with the fact that she has plenty of former victims who have the right to hate her guts.

[I'm a Fish]

I completely agree! This comes from my real-life pet peeve when people act as if it's worse to "give up" on someone than it is for the person to continuously commit acts that demand you walk away from them.

I'm actually wouldn't mind a story where Diana gives up on Cheetah or Silver Swan or whomever. Part of being an agent of change and having an endless and tremendous supply of love to give to others is realizing when some people are not deserving of that love. That doesn't mean Diana has to kill them. But it does mean Diana should see them as the threats to humanity that they are.

Diana redeeming Cheetah is out of the question for her ongoing story. In a one-of or Elseworlds sure, but no one expect Diana to redeem Cheetah at this point. I wouldn't mind a story of Cheetah pushing Diana to her breaking point either, she nearly did in Orlando's run. But it wasn't because Diana forgave or excused Cheetah that she stopped her, but because she showed her she had become no better than the gods she so despises, Diana punching Cheetah wouldn't have gotten her to realize that and would have just caused more destruction.

Silver Swan (Venessa) is different because she's a victim of brainwashing, and for a criminal defense, that would hold her unaccountable for her actions and excuse her of her crimes. So I would not like a story about Diana giving up on Venessa when it's not at all Venessa's fault, why should Venessa be punished for Psycho's phycological torture and turning her into a monster against her will? If they change her story down the line to where it's Venessa's choice, that's something else entirely, but until then I would like for Diana to try and help her.

There's only really a handful of villains I care about Diana reforming, Silver Swan being the #1. Diana finding non-violent solutions isn't the same as her letting them off the hook for their actions. But honestly, in the world DC has made, the government would rather try to weaponize criminals instead of reform them...so I mean, it's just a dead end if she captures them when you think about it... (not unlike real life). I would think it natural for her character to want to help in that regard.

[Gaius]

I would agree Vanessa's Silver Swan isn't someone I'd want to see Diana to decide to give up on as both times she was the Swan, there's extenuating circumstances to her being the Swan at all.

Harley as she currently is is an obnoxious example at reformed villainy that we could use less of.

Paula's magical fix story with Gerta didn't sit well, but as Paula never returned to villainy I think she has more potential than Harley even with the original background. We just need more elaboration on the process and her dealing with the fact that she has plenty of former victims who have the right to hate her guts.

That's fair. You are right though that there's probably more that could be done to show the actual process of redemption, if they want to re-use stuff like Reform Island (ignoring the brainwashing part obviously ).

I would agree redemption stories for villains that ignore their victims is a problem in general with superhero comics in general.

[I'm a Fish]

The villains won't be open to finding non-violent solutions if they are still villains, so why would the onus be on them? Diana has both the power to do it and the desire to resolve it with as minimal violence as possible and set them up for possible reform if it can be done. But that doesn't mean she's stupid (ex: Max Lord being a very present danger to even someone of her power and having no desire to stop necessitated her killing him).

I think quick and lazy redemption stories that don't put much emphasis on the victims are a problem in fiction outside of WW. When we have villains go to Reform Island, I'd like more stories where we see the actual process of rehabilitation and care given to the victims and their perspectives and how they are under no obligation to forgive anybody to matter how genuinely remorseful a former villain is. And the reformed villain will just have to learn to live with it.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing more stories of Diana bringing up the topic that the government in DC comics actively weaponizes criminals, even criminals that could be deemed criminally insane (like Harley). So, they don't even try to help the criminals, worse, they do the opposite and use them as tools furthering their decline. No villain is going to get better by having a bomb put into their neck and given the license to kill people as long as it's the people the government deems appropriate to kill.

Obviously, this gets in the way of entertaining stories, so I don't ever expect it to be solved. But there's potential for an interesting story of Diana bringing it up and offering solutions. BTW, I do not hate the Suicide Squad comics, quite the contrary, but I think this being an element of the universe Diana lives in would make it a part of her character to try and reform the villains herself since the government certainly wont.

I also don't expect the victims or even Diana herself to forgive the actions of criminals.

Harley as she currently is is an obnoxious example at reformed villainy that we could use less of.

Paula's magical fix story with Gerta didn't sit well, but as Paula never returned to villainy I think she has more potential than Harley even with the original background. We just need more elaboration on the process and her dealing with the fact that she has plenty of former victims who have the right to hate her guts.

Is Harley Quinn really reformed though? It's certainly what DC wants us to think.

[I'm a Fish]

Actually, it's kind of interesting the various criminal defense cases you could come up with for Wonder Woman villains...

[Alpha]

Those are certainly good ideas.

Wonder Woman really needs to grow deeper roots around the DC universe. This includes growing and nurturing her own universe inside her comics and in various unrelated DC titles, but it also includes putting her in pivotal roles around the DC Universe that only she can fulfill. Justice League Dark seems like it was a good start (I haven't read it). Those ideas for Suicide Squad could alao have a lot of value for that team's brand since it brings a new interesting challenge for them.

[marhawkman]

Actually, it's kind of interesting the various criminal defense cases you could come up with for Wonder Woman villains...

In Deva's case you could argue she really had no agency in what she did... at least at first. She was created as a living weapon designed to destroy WW.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I never really understood why DC dropped Wonder Woman having that whole 'her powers come from believing in herself' angle. Im also not a fan of how its changed over the years to her being empowered by the gods and later, herself becoming a demi god (Which for some reason they count as a full on god?)

On that same note ive noticed in recent years this weird push to try and define Wonder Womans enemies as revolving around hating the gods and wanting revenge upon them. Which is a weird one because it creates the idea that Wonder Womans whole thing would be standing up for and promoting said gods when that really has nothing to do with anything shes about?