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  1. #4831
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It being a fake Themyscira pretty much erased all the events surrounding it from canon.

    Good riddance too. Even a lot of fans who loved Azzarello's run overall think the depiction of the Amazons was too much. It misses the ENTIRE point of the franchise.
    Literally. I got into reading WW during the New 52 and the Azzarello run is where I truly fell for our lady of Wonder. But that depiction of the Amazons never sat well with me and it continues to be that run's largest blemish. I'm glad I've read hundreds of other WW issues from many other creatives teams to help cleanse my soul of that horrible depiction.

  2. #4832
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Everytime WW gets her ass kicked by Superman(which is most of the time sadly) Sexism wins. Either, make her equal to him like she is supposed to. Or stop putting them against each other while using the feminist icon card to save face from the obvious sexist attitude of basucally suggesting that the strongest female hero is nothing next to the big alpha male in terms of raw power.

  3. #4833
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Everytime WW gets her ass kicked by Superman(which is most of the time sadly) Sexism wins. Either, make her equal to him like she is supposed to. Or stop putting them against each other while using the feminist icon card to save face from the obvious sexist attitude of basucally suggesting that the strongest female hero is nothing next to the big alpha male in terms of raw power.
    So if in you're mind they're equals, and one wins, it's sexism... Perhaps you don't think of them as equals then? Look, I hate when Clark mops the floor with Diana (like in the Justice League films), but it's not out-and-out sexism for him to beat her in a fight just as it's not "woke SJW bullshit" if she beats him. Execution is what's key.
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  4. #4834
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    So if in you're mind they're equals, and one wins, it's sexism... Perhaps you don't think of them as equals then? Look, I hate when Clark mops the floor with Diana (like in the Justice League films), but it's not out-and-out sexism for him to beat her in a fight just as it's not "woke SJW bullshit" if she beats him. Execution is what's key.
    Please, DC even had to put this silly and extreme unnecessary scene into A League of One:



    and that was even still very harmless in comparison to absolute disrespectful trash like this:





    And the trash list is so laughably long that there would first need to exist dozens of Death Earths, to even have this discussion from a neutral view point, there is so far absolute no reason to trust DC or WB with the execution of it and any implication of a fight with Superman is just a scarlet red flag for Wonder Woman.
    Last edited by Rightoya; 10-16-2021 at 06:56 PM.

  5. #4835
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    So if in you're mind they're equals, and one wins, it's sexism... Perhaps you don't think of them as equals then? Look, I hate when Clark mops the floor with Diana (like in the Justice League films), but it's not out-and-out sexism for him to beat her in a fight just as it's not "woke SJW bullshit" if she beats him. Execution is what's key.
    No, because if she was truly treated as an equal. She wouldn't get easily overpowered and or killed by him like it happened in: league of one, trinity, justice league movie, dceased, the witch is back, for tomorrow, sacrifice, and the list goes on. User above me post just a few examples of this. So yes, it is sexism that the most iconic female hero. A feminist girl power icon usually gets 1 or two shotted by alpha male powerhouse superman.

  6. #4836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    So if in you're mind they're equals, and one wins, it's sexism... Perhaps you don't think of them as equals then? Look, I hate when Clark mops the floor with Diana (like in the Justice League films), but it's not out-and-out sexism for him to beat her in a fight just as it's not "woke SJW bullshit" if she beats him. Execution is what's key.
    I agree, execution is the key. But on the other hand, I would say the only "fight" the two have had I would say I cared for is League of One and it's not really a fight since Diana has different motives going in to it. Dead Earth and Sacrifice have mitigating factors that prevent me from liking the stories they're set in.

    Injustice and DCeased aren't even up for consideration just by their very nature and creators involved with them, lol.

  7. #4837
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I agree, execution is the key. But on the other hand, I would say the only "fight" the two have had I would say I cared for is League of One and it's not really a fight since Diana has different motives going in to it. Dead Earth and Sacrifice have mitigating factors that prevent me from liking the stories they're set in.

    Injustice and DCeased aren't even up for consideration just by their very nature and creators involved with them, lol.
    Execution is the key. And in most battles, WW is portrayed as way weaker than Superman. Since she gets easily overpowered admiting she can't beat him(sacrifice, witch is back and league of one among others), and gets one or two shotted(sacrifice where only re entry was able to wake her up other wise it would be the end, justice league movie etc) in 90% of their fights, WW does not look to be even remotely close SM's level. And at this point, sexism is the only answer. Even shazam has a better trackrecord battleing SM than her.

  8. #4838
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I agree, execution is the key. But on the other hand, I would say the only "fight" the two have had I would say I cared for is League of One and it's not really a fight since Diana has different motives going in to it. Dead Earth and Sacrifice have mitigating factors that prevent me from liking the stories they're set in.

    Injustice and DCeased aren't even up for consideration just by their very nature and creators involved with them, lol.
    Oh, I agree with you, but the post I quoted was referring to future fights, which can be executed well (especially since DC is giving her lots more respect than she usually got... Well, ever).

    There's legitimate sexism in comics, and some of it does indeed crop up in superhero fights between Superman and Wonder Woman, but my brain isn't smooth enough to say that any time she ever loses to him will be a result of it. That's an oversimplification of the highest order.

    I think Final Crisis is a sexist work and Diana's treatment in it is surely a big indicator, but I wouldn't say all of Morrison's work is sexist by virtue of that.
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-16-2021 at 09:25 PM.
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  9. #4839
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Oh, I agree with you, but the post I quoted was referring to future fights, which can be executed well (especially since DC is giving her lots more respect than she usually got... Well, ever).

    There's legitimate sexism in comics, and some of it does indeed crop up in superhero fights between Superman and Wonder Woman, but my brain isn't smooth enough to say that any time she ever loses to him will be a result of it. That's an oversimplification of the highest order.

    I think Final Crisis is a sexist work and Diana's treatment in it is surely a big indicator, but I wouldn't say all of Morrison's work is sexist by virtue of that.
    There is nothing to suggest she will be treated better. Specially next to superman and batman. I think sexism is a factor, because if yo look at 90% of WW's battles against superman. She comes off as being way weaker than him. More often than not he puts her in her place in one or two hits. Is that what you consider the logical outcome between 2 beings of comparable power? I don't. I have accepted long ago that Diana is nothing next to superman in terms of power. It shouldn't be that way, but it is how DC portrayed her compared to him. Both in terms of their respective individual feats, and in terms of their actual battles.

  10. #4840

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    It's all so frustrating and ridiculous because, purely on paper, Wonder Woman and Superman should be close enough where a fight could go either way, 50/50.
    And that is how it should be. She was specifically created to be represent how a woman can do anything a man can do.

    Dead Earth had a lot of problems, but one thing I did like about it is it presented a nothing held back, full-on fight between Diana & Clark as cataclysmic. And it should be that way, Goku and Frieze fighting in Dragon Ball resulted in a planet exploding. That's how a for real fight between Wonder Woman and Superman should be.

    The problem is too many creators would rather perform seppuku on themselves than portray her that way, and we end up with crap where she's dropped in mere seconds.

    It sucks.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  11. #4841
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    There is nothing to suggest she will be treated better. Specially next to superman and batman. I think sexism is a factor, because if yo look at 90% of WW's battles against superman. She comes off as being way weaker than him. More often than not he puts her in her place in one or two hits. Is that what you consider the logical outcome between 2 beings of comparable power? I don't. I have accepted long ago that Diana is nothing next to superman in terms of power. It shouldn't be that way, but it is how DC portrayed her compared to him. Both in terms of their respective individual feats, and in terms of their actual battles.
    I don't like those fights either, and I'd likely be right there shitting on them with you if that's what gets published next.

    But I don't see myself ever just drawing a line in the sand as frivolous as "if she loses, it's sexism" and dying on that hill in a medium where Bat-characters dumpster Darkseid because it sells. It's a genre where admittedly most the material is mediocre and we read for moments that rule with the occasional great work as a whole. Diana getting one-shot by Superzombie didn't read as sexist so much to me as just incredibly goddamn stupid because there's lots of stupid shit like that going on in the book. Superman can't think of a better way to neutralize Flash than run himself into Barry and get himself infected. Lex Luthor, the world's most arrogant man, metaphorically kneels and polishes Batman's knob post mortem by admitting he's just so much smarter than him, Green Arrow can shoot an arrow that pierce's Aquaman's flesh when Arthur's physiology is so dense he can shrug off bullets that strike him and he walks with no difficulty on the bottom of the ocean. I could go on, by why beat that dead horse? I knew when we saw Diana arming herself with a green K sword in the final few pages of the last issue we were going to get her "world of cardboard moment" in which we build up how badass she is to get one-shot by her opponent because "oh shit the stakes."

    Never mistake malice where good old fashioned incompetence or stupidity can be attributed.

    The book just has a poor grasp on the characters in general. Diana gets absolutely shit on, but considering this book elevated Black Canary to one of its strongest members as well as resident GL, I don't think what happened was sexism so much as just very shitty writing of Diana, who showed up to job like Superman used to every issue in the Silver/Bronze age of the Justice League to make the big bad scary. Truthfully, I don't think Taylor gets Wonder Woman. I strongly doubt he's sexist. Granted, that doesn't mean the work itself can't be, but again the poor decisions there were not happening in a vacuum where she's the exception.

    Diana's treatment in Injustice does read that way. I'd argue Final Crisis is sexist if memory serves, but it's been a very long time so perhaps I should reread it. I think DCeased is just really fucking stupid, as are the Justice League movies. There's a difference.

    Sexism is a major issue, but I just don't see it at play in every fight she loses. That isn't to say it's not there, it absolutely is in many cases, but it should always be taken in a case-by-case basis because accusations of bigotry are a really big thing to throw around so casually. Extremes should not ever be a knee-jerk reaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    It's all so frustrating and ridiculous because, purely on paper, Wonder Woman and Superman should be close enough where a fight could go either way, 50/50.
    And that is how it should be. She was specifically created to be represent how a woman can do anything a man can do.

    Dead Earth had a lot of problems, but one thing I did like about it is it presented a nothing held back, full-on fight between Diana & Clark as cataclysmic. And it should be that way, Goku and Frieze fighting in Dragon Ball resulted in a planet exploding. That's how a for real fight between Wonder Woman and Superman should be.

    The problem is too many creators would rather perform seppuku on themselves than portray her that way, and we end up with crap where she's dropped in mere seconds.

    It sucks.
    Comic book writers aren't great at fights. Batman/Superman don't fare much better either. The best one I can recall is the one from Hush. As readers, we should demand more from when they come to blows, but we don't so this is what we've gotten. They give us dumb shit like "Superman just lets Flash's zombie run into him and they both die which leads to the end of planet Earth and Wonder Woman getting one-shot because we ran out of pages."
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-16-2021 at 11:05 PM.
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  12. #4842
    Fantastic Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    [A]nd that was even still very harmless in comparison to absolute disrespectful trash like this:



    And the trash list is so laughably long that there would first need to exist dozens of Death Earths, to even have this discussion from a neutral view point, there is so far absolute no reason to trust DC or WB with the execution of it and any implication of a fight with Superman is just a scarlet red flag for Wonder Woman.
    WTF
    What comic is that from?

    And what is it with some comic book artists that feel the need to depict even female characters who are dead or dying in ways that show some sort of "sexy" skin? So friggin disgusting. Yuck.
    Last edited by HestiasHearth; 10-17-2021 at 01:22 AM.

  13. #4843
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    WTF
    What comic is that from?
    Issue #15 of Jeph Loeb's Superman and Batman book.

  14. #4844
    Fantastic Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Issue #15 of Jeph Loeb's Superman and Batman book.
    Thanks!


    As far as her raw power goes, this is my take (always will be): Wonder Woman and Superman are 100 equals in terms of raw strength and power. Whatever disadvantage she has "because she is not a Kryptonian" (and that is just an arbitrary thing just like all comic book rules), she more than makes up because he is not a creature of magic, and she is. She is an incredibly powerful being created from ancient divine magic, she is as strong and durable as the earth itself, as fast as an ancient deity that embodies speed, and she has thousands of years of training as a fighter and a warrior. That doesn't mean that every fight that they may have will end with her winning, but this whole Snyder's Justice League-type bullshit that we always see in most media, where Superman swats her aside like a bug, is just absurd. There is internalized sexism at play here whether the usually male writers who write her books want to see it/admit it or not. No, I don't think Taylor is a woman-hating troglodyte, but socially sanctioned sexism is more complicated, insidious, and hard to detect than that. It's not easy to let go of an entire lifetime of being taught that men are better than women.
    Last edited by HestiasHearth; 10-17-2021 at 01:29 AM.

  15. #4845
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    Thanks!


    As far as her raw power goes, this is my take (always will be): Wonder Woman and Superman are 100 equals in terms of raw strength and power. Whatever disadvantage she has "because she is not a Kryptonian" (and that is just an arbitrary thing just like all comic book rules), she more than makes up because he is not a creature of magic, and she is. She is an incredibly powerful being created from ancient divine magic, she is as strong and durable as the earth itself, as fast as an ancient deity that embodies speed, and she has thousands of years of training as a fighter and a warrior. That doesn't mean that every fight that they may have will end with her winning, but this whole Snyder's Justice League-type bullshit that we always see in most media, where Superman swats her aside like a bug, is just absurd. There is internalized sexism at play here whether the usually male writers who write her books want to see it/admit it or not. No, I don't think Taylor is a woman-hating troglodyte, but socially sanctioned sexism is more complicated, insidious, and hard to detect than that. It's not easy to let go of an entire lifetime of being taught that men are better than women.
    I'm pretty sure Taylor had her beating Superman.

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