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  1. #4846
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    Thanks!


    As far as her raw power goes, this is my take (always will be): Wonder Woman and Superman are 100 equals in terms of raw strength and power. Whatever disadvantage she has "because she is not a Kryptonian" (and that is just an arbitrary thing just like all comic book rules), she more than makes up because he is not a creature of magic, and she is. She is an incredibly powerful being created from ancient divine magic, she is as strong and durable as the earth itself, as fast as an ancient deity that embodies speed, and she has thousands of years of training as a fighter and a warrior. That doesn't mean that every fight that they may have will end with her winning, but this whole Snyder's Justice League-type bullshit that we always see in most media, where Superman swats her aside like a bug, is just absurd. There is internalized sexism at play here whether the usually male writers who write her books want to see it/admit it or not. No, I don't think Taylor is a woman-hating troglodyte, but socially sanctioned sexism is more complicated, insidious, and hard to detect than that. It's not easy to let go of an entire lifetime of being taught that men are better than women.
    See, I think she's his equal but that doesn't mean in every minute detail. I think he's stronger, if only because she's so ridiculously skilled compared to him, he needs some advantage and if the only unique thing he brings to the table at the Justice League is his extra-sensory powers, he's just kind of useless. But if Clark's a 10 in strength, she's a 9.5. It's close. I admit, I'm a Superman fan so I have a bit of a bias there, but she immensely outskills him and does have that magic component so his raw stats being higher seems like a good compromise to make them equals. If she's every bit his physical match but also superior in terms of combat, wisdom and has the magic arsenal too, he's essentially her sidekick and you've over-corrected.

    They're equals, but I don't think that needs to translate to "she just doesn't have heat vision." For other stuff, I think it gets closer. I like the idea that they're roughly even in speed, with Clark potentially faster in the air than she is but she trumps him on land (and their tops are on par with one another). She's as durable, I think that stands to reason. I prefer my Wonder Women bulletproof. Strength's always been one of Superman's sole things. I don't see why he cannot be stronger in that one field, and it's less that he's a man and more that, well, I just don't know what he brings to the table otherwise because then you kind of Martian Manhunter Diana-- Superman, but with extra stuff too! He's not just the bar other characters get measured by and need to surpass in order to be taken seriously.

    The heat vision, freeze breath and super senses don't really make the difference enough to matter. None of those really do much more than slow her down for a moment, if they even connect in a meaningful way (magic shield and what have you).

    In recent years, lots of qualities or stories have been pulled from Clark to build up his satellite characters that have spun off from him (usually Supergirl or Superboy), but he still does tend to be the guy that the DC universe turns to when it needs someone to bench press a planet. If Diana is put on that same level, with all her many other advantages she naturally has over Clark, well why do we even need him? Wonder Woman is important, but so is Superman. It's not immensely disrespectful to say "this guy is better at this one thing than she is, but she's better than him at these others and they're both around the same places in these qualities."

    Sure, Diana was created to be a female equivalent but he was created to be the most powerful creature in his world before anyone else was created as a reaction. Which is more important? Should Diana's reason for creation overrule Superman's when he himself was created to be the biggest bully in any room to ensure nobody got killed as a result of petty crime like Seigel's father? Neither should be held as the end-all requirement for "respect" because otherwise, everyone in DC (including Batman and Wonder Woman) is a spin-off of Superman and he should win every time and I cannot imagine a shittier take for DC than "Superman is god." Diana is the premiere superheroine. Of them all, she should be the greatest. I don't think that means she needs to be a 10 in every field and totes shit on everyone or else it's sexist hogwash.

    Diana is tricky. She's already essentially the best qualities of Batman and Superman's combat effectiveness rolled into one plus a ton of other excellent qualities. More than being able to arm wrestle Clark and neither of them ever get the other to budge, she needs an editor that DC actually respects enough that when some Injustice bullshit happens, they can step in and say "knock this bullshit off" and it actually happen.

    The Spectre is stronger than Superman for all it matters. The silver age incarnation of Superman was able to tow galaxies on change and delivered his best Sunday punch to the Spectre who simply responded to the effect of "are you done" when it did absolutely nothing. He jobs worse than anyone. Respect doesn't come from being powerful, it comes from editors backing the character. In the most disgusting Capitalist thing I'll say, characters are currencies and the editorial team backing them are what give them value. Diana doesn't need to be the thickest coin or the prettiest paper bill, she needs to hold the same value as Superman and Batman. They don't need to be the exact same to do that.

    I know this is a Wonder Woman subforum so I'll likely have the unpopular opinion, but I don't think that constitutes sexism, though I am sure I'll hear otherwise at some point.
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-17-2021 at 02:23 AM.
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  2. #4847
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    Conversations like these convince me more and more that most DC characters are better off in their own universe.

  3. #4848
    Fantastic Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman being equal to Superman in strength and raw power doesn't make either one unnecessary or redundant.
    In any case, what I think is a moot point, since DC will always make Supes the winner in every respect, from the stories themselves, to how many resources they use in order to prop him up, to pretty much everything the company does in regard to their flagship characters (which usually include making sure that Superman always beats/bests/outranks Diana). That alone is not coincidence, and has a lot to do with how we are all raised to perceive male and female dynamics, worth, and cultural significance/value.

  4. #4849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    See, I think she's his equal but that doesn't mean in every minute detail. I think he's stronger, if only because she's so ridiculously skilled compared to him, he needs some advantage and if the only unique thing he brings to the table at the Justice League is his extra-sensory powers, he's just kind of useless. But if Clark's a 10 in strength, she's a 9.5. It's close. I admit, I'm a Superman fan so I have a bit of a bias there, but she immensely outskills him and does have that magic component so his raw stats being higher seems like a good compromise to make them equals. If she's every bit his physical match but also superior in terms of combat, wisdom and has the magic arsenal too, he's essentially her sidekick and you've over-corrected.

    They're equals, but I don't think that needs to translate to "she just doesn't have heat vision." For other stuff, I think it gets closer. I like the idea that they're roughly even in speed, with Clark potentially faster in the air than she is but she trumps him on land (and their tops are on par with one another). She's as durable, I think that stands to reason. I prefer my Wonder Women bulletproof. Strength's always been one of Superman's sole things. I don't see why he cannot be stronger in that one field, and it's less that he's a man and more that, well, I just don't know what he brings to the table otherwise because then you kind of Martian Manhunter Diana-- Superman, but with extra stuff too! He's not just the bar other characters get measured by and need to surpass in order to be taken seriously.

    The heat vision, freeze breath and super senses don't really make the difference enough to matter. None of those really do much more than slow her down for a moment, if they even connect in a meaningful way (magic shield and what have you).

    In recent years, lots of qualities or stories have been pulled from Clark to build up his satellite characters that have spun off from him (usually Supergirl or Superboy), but he still does tend to be the guy that the DC universe turns to when it needs someone to bench press a planet. If Diana is put on that same level, with all her many other advantages she naturally has over Clark, well why do we even need him? Wonder Woman is important, but so is Superman. It's not immensely disrespectful to say "this guy is better at this one thing than she is, but she's better than him at these others and they're both around the same places in these qualities."
    She needs to be faster in combat and have better reflexes, or the skill advantage becomes moot without Karate Kid-like shenanigans. If he is a 10 and she a 9.5 in strength, and he can bench press a planet, she need to be able to bench press a planet too just with more difficulty. And them being equally powerful, don't means they must have the exact same stats in any way, just that the core stats must even each other out and the magical gear or kryptonian abilities are just put on top of that.

    If both are in a struggle of strength, he would at best slowly gain the upper-hand and Wonder Woman would kick him and open up the struggle, is a simplistic description of the concept of equally powerful without the exact same strength. If she attacks him with a weapon, he uses heat vision to gain distance, and she deflects the heat vision, and so on.

    But the biggest problem is how much DC and WB have poisoned the well already, it might be at this point impossible to truly start with portraying them as true equals, without Wonder Woman just winning a couple of fights at first.

    Sure, Diana was created to be a female equivalent but he was created to be the most powerful creature in his world before anyone else was created as a reaction. Which is more important? Should Diana's reason for creation overrule Superman's when he himself was created to be the biggest bully in any room to ensure nobody got killed as a result of petty crime like Seigel's father? Neither should be held as the end-all requirement for "respect" because otherwise, everyone in DC (including Batman and Wonder Woman) is a spin-off of Superman and he should win every time and I cannot imagine a shittier take for DC than "Superman is god." Diana is the premiere superheroine. Of them all, she should be the greatest. I don't think that means she needs to be a 10 in every field and totes shit on everyone or else it's sexist hogwash.
    Even though i get what you are trying to say and don't disagree with it, Wonder Woman's reason is more important, because it is a core concept that truly exists. Superman was never created to be the strongest, most powerful, or anything like that superhero in the room, that interpretation is just fanon invented by his fans much later on, his core concept never even involved such comparisons. And many of the other superheroes in DC including Wonder Woman could not be spin-off of Superman, because they were not even published by the same company until 1946 for most and far later for Shazam.

    Diana is tricky. She's already essentially the best qualities of Batman and Superman's combat effectiveness rolled into one plus a ton of other excellent qualities. More than being able to arm wrestle Clark and neither of them ever get the other to budge, she needs an editor that DC actually respects enough that when some Injustice bullshit happens, they can step in and say "knock this bullshit off" and it actually happen.
    That is Wonder Woman on paper, but like you say, without a truly competent editorial and a company that is even trying to keep her consistent it is just moot.

    The Spectre is stronger than Superman for all it matters. The silver age incarnation of Superman was able to tow galaxies on change and delivered his best Sunday punch to the Spectre who simply responded to the effect of "are you done" when it did absolutely nothing. He jobs worse than anyone. Respect doesn't come from being powerful, it comes from editors backing the character. In the most disgusting Capitalist thing I'll say, characters are currencies and the editorial team backing them are what give them value. Diana doesn't need to be the thickest coin or the prettiest paper bill, she needs to hold the same value as Superman and Batman. They don't need to be the exact same to do that.
    The Spectre is an odd comparison for this, because even with all his jobbing i don't think i have ever heard or seen anyone saying Superman would be stronger let alone more powerful, at worst they did not knew the Spectre even exists.

    I know this is a Wonder Woman subforum so I'll likely have the unpopular opinion, but I don't think that constitutes sexism, though I am sure I'll hear otherwise at some point.
    DC's portrayal of Superman and Wonder Woman definitively often bordered on or was sexism, but i also don't think Tom Taylor as example is a sexist, other writers possible or probably were but that is a case by case evaluation.

  5. #4850
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I don't like those fights either, and I'd likely be right there shitting on them with you if that's what gets published next.

    But I don't see myself ever just drawing a line in the sand as frivolous as "if she loses, it's sexism" and dying on that hill in a medium where Bat-characters dumpster Darkseid because it sells. It's a genre where admittedly most the material is mediocre and we read for moments that rule with the occasional great work as a whole. Diana getting one-shot by Superzombie didn't read as sexist so much to me as just incredibly goddamn stupid because there's lots of stupid shit like that going on in the book. Superman can't think of a better way to neutralize Flash than run himself into Barry and get himself infected. Lex Luthor, the world's most arrogant man, metaphorically kneels and polishes Batman's knob post mortem by admitting he's just so much smarter than him, Green Arrow can shoot an arrow that pierce's Aquaman's flesh when Arthur's physiology is so dense he can shrug off bullets that strike him and he walks with no difficulty on the bottom of the ocean. I could go on, by why beat that dead horse? I knew when we saw Diana arming herself with a green K sword in the final few pages of the last issue we were going to get her "world of cardboard moment" in which we build up how badass she is to get one-shot by her opponent because "oh shit the stakes."

    Never mistake malice where good old fashioned incompetence or stupidity can be attributed.

    The book just has a poor grasp on the characters in general. Diana gets absolutely shit on, but considering this book elevated Black Canary to one of its strongest members as well as resident GL, I don't think what happened was sexism so much as just very shitty writing of Diana, who showed up to job like Superman used to every issue in the Silver/Bronze age of the Justice League to make the big bad scary. Truthfully, I don't think Taylor gets Wonder Woman. I strongly doubt he's sexist. Granted, that doesn't mean the work itself can't be, but again the poor decisions there were not happening in a vacuum where she's the exception.

    Diana's treatment in Injustice does read that way. I'd argue Final Crisis is sexist if memory serves, but it's been a very long time so perhaps I should reread it. I think DCeased is just really fucking stupid, as are the Justice League movies. There's a difference.

    Sexism is a major issue, but I just don't see it at play in every fight she loses. That isn't to say it's not there, it absolutely is in many cases, but it should always be taken in a case-by-case basis because accusations of bigotry are a really big thing to throw around so casually. Extremes should not ever be a knee-jerk reaction.



    Comic book writers aren't great at fights. Batman/Superman don't fare much better either. The best one I can recall is the one from Hush. As readers, we should demand more from when they come to blows, but we don't so this is what we've gotten. They give us dumb shit like "Superman just lets Flash's zombie run into him and they both die which leads to the end of planet Earth and Wonder Woman getting one-shot because we ran out of pages."
    WW doesn't even have feats that even come close to SM's feats. So what other advantages are you talking about? Her skills don't mean anything when they battle and her physical stats are way below his. There is no way to deny it. The evidence is all over the place. DC treats WW as a bug next to superman in power. That's the case in 90% of their battles. And in most team battles wehre he is the MVP and she is just another figure that struggles to fight the big threat when SM isn't around. The rest doesn't mean much compared to hard core evidence. Whatever those writers are intentionally sexist or not doesn't matter. The girl power feminist icon number one is usually portrayed as insignificant next to the most important alpha male powerhouses. And until DC does better than this, they are letting sexism wins.
    Last edited by mystical41; 10-17-2021 at 06:05 AM.

  6. #4851
    Amazing Member Garrac's Avatar
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    She is WAY cooler than Batman

  7. #4852
    Spectacular Member Gitagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    WTF
    What comic is that from?

    And what is it with some comic book artists that feel the need to depict even female characters who are dead or dying in ways that show some sort of "sexy" skin? So friggin disgusting. Yuck.
    I'd say it even borders on necrophilia and torture p*rn. Even when a woman is being brutalized or killed, they still try to make it "sexy". It's downright sick.

  8. #4853
    Spectacular Member Gitagon's Avatar
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    For all the people who are denying sexism, has there been an incident in DC where Wonder Woman has oneshot Superman with her bare hands? Not weapons since they are magic (even then I doubt it).

    I think the answer to this is clearly no. Anytime if ever that Superman lost to WE there was always an explanation: magic, mind control, etc.

    Even then Superman doesn't get oneshot.

    And I know people are still trying to defend guys like Taylor or whoever else writes these stories disrespecting Diana. Others are saying Superman's strength should be the highest and never matched. But how come there's dudes left and right matching Superman's strength but it's a no no for Wonder Woman?

    I always had a big issue of Wonder Woman being portrayed below Captain Marvel in both speed and strength in multiple stories and when compared to Superman. For the longest time, Wonder Woman was "Stronger than Hercules, Faster than Mercury/Hermes, Wiser than Athena" yet here we were with someone who only has a fraction of these gods powers being placed above her. And by default his equal Black Adam.

    But you will see DC will never humiliate Black Adam in front of Superman.

    Martian Manhunter - I still haven't forgotten how the JL main book treated WW. Apparently Superman and Martian Manhunter were the only ones who could survive the Totality. Diana can't! They already have MM having a bajillion powers but now even his durability is far above Diana and on par with Superman. Diana is basically a glass canon durability wise to DC writers.

    Aquaman - Nowadays he can go toe to toe with Diana physically on numerous occasions: Flashpoint, JL comics where both were mind controlled, the recent JSA movies. And in all these fights he always seems to come out on top until the very last moment.

    By having Aquaman even be a threat to Diana, that means her speed and strength has been nerfed to the nth degree. Aquaman definitely is nowhere near Lightspeed, his strength is nowhere near planetary.

    There are other guys I'm forgetting but I'm sure there are many.

  9. #4854
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitagon View Post
    For all the people who are denying sexism, has there been an incident in DC where Wonder Woman has oneshot Superman with her bare hands? Not weapons since they are magic (even then I doubt it).

    I think the answer to this is clearly no. Anytime if ever that Superman lost to WE there was always an explanation: magic, mind control, etc.

    Even then Superman doesn't get oneshot.

    And I know people are still trying to defend guys like Taylor or whoever else writes these stories disrespecting Diana. Others are saying Superman's strength should be the highest and never matched. But how come there's dudes left and right matching Superman's strength but it's a no no for Wonder Woman?

    I always had a big issue of Wonder Woman being portrayed below Captain Marvel in both speed and strength in multiple stories and when compared to Superman. For the longest time, Wonder Woman was "Stronger than Hercules, Faster than Mercury/Hermes, Wiser than Athena" yet here we were with someone who only has a fraction of these gods powers being placed above her. And by default his equal Black Adam.

    But you will see DC will never humiliate Black Adam in front of Superman.

    Martian Manhunter - I still haven't forgotten how the JL main book treated WW. Apparently Superman and Martian Manhunter were the only ones who could survive the Totality. Diana can't! They already have MM having a bajillion powers but now even his durability is far above Diana and on par with Superman. Diana is basically a glass canon durability wise to DC writers.

    Aquaman - Nowadays he can go toe to toe with Diana physically on numerous occasions: Flashpoint, JL comics where both were mind controlled, the recent JSA movies. And in all these fights he always seems to come out on top until the very last moment.

    By having Aquaman even be a threat to Diana, that means her speed and strength has been nerfed to the nth degree. Aquaman definitely is nowhere near Lightspeed, his strength is nowhere near planetary.

    There are other guys I'm forgetting but I'm sure there are many.
    Very well said. And don't forget her fight with mary marvel in dceased. How come WW is portrayed as weaker and less durable than her, shazam and other characters with the same power source as Diana? Seems like according to writers. Diana was late to the god like powers event. Since they seem to think she is weaker and less durable than other characters that have powers from multiple Gods just like her. I mean nowadays she has powers from multiple Gods, plus a depper connection to Zeus power for being his child. So how come we still see writers going out of their way to portray her as just your standard super human? There is nothing outstanding about Diana's stats anymore based on actual performances form the last years and counting. Both in comics and movies.

  10. #4855
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm pretty sure Taylor had her beating Superman.
    He didn't. And he one shotted her in dceased.

  11. #4856
    Fantastic Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitagon View Post
    I'd say it even borders on necrophilia and torture p*rn. Even when a woman is being brutalized or killed, they still try to make it "sexy". It's downright sick.
    I believe it reached some sort of nadir in that horrendous Poison Ivy cover from Heroes In Crisis (the one where she was dead, and in which the artist made sure her back was arched and the angle of the shot was such that we could see her breasts pressed againts the floor and her ass cheeks up in the air at the same time).

  12. #4857
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitagon View Post
    And I know people are still trying to defend guys like Taylor or whoever else writes these stories disrespecting Diana. Others are saying Superman's strength should be the highest and never matched. But how come there's dudes left and right matching Superman's strength but it's a no no for Wonder Woman?
    In fairness, a lot of Superman fans who don't want him to be totally matched in strength by Wonder Woman hold the same opinion for the male superheroes. At least around these parts, Supes fans are more fine with her matching him than most anyone else.

    Personally I want Wonder Woman and Supergirl to be closer to him than MM and especially Aquaman. The scene in the JL film where WW lassoed Steppenwolf when he was above her and she needed Aquaman's help to yank him down was embarrassing. Arthur's no slouch in the strength department at all, but he shouldn't be in Diana or Clark's weight class.

  13. #4858
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    In fairness, a lot of Superman fans who don't want him to be totally matched in strength by Wonder Woman hold the same opinion for the male superheroes. At least around these parts, Supes fans are more fine with her matching him than most anyone else.

    Personally I want Wonder Woman and Supergirl to be closer to him than MM and especially Aquaman. The scene in the JL film where WW lassoed Steppenwolf when he was above her and she needed Aquaman's help to yank him down was embarrassing. Arthur's no slouch in the strength department at all, but he shouldn't be in Diana or Clark's weight class.
    Yeah, I think Diana, MM, Power Girl and Supergirl are the only ones who enter the conversation as for his equals in strength. But I just prefer Clark having the edge over them in one thing.
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  14. #4859
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah, I think Diana, MM, Power Girl and Supergirl are the only ones who enter the conversation as for his equals in strength. But I just prefer Clark having the edge over them in one thing.
    So far, he has the edge over her in almost everything and by a big margin. So yes, i think sexism plays a part in that.

  15. #4860
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Conversations like these convince me more and more that most DC characters are better off in their own universe.
    Perils of living in a shared universe but being created independently, everyone's gonna lose out on something.

    I guess you could say since Marston intentionally created WW to be a female response to Superman that creates different issues of say "who should be faster" like when it comes to Flash and Superman (Flash btw) but I wouldn't say it's exclusive to her. DC's always been pretty poor caretakers of the Captain Marvel IP since the most consistent thing they seem to want to use him is for Superman (a grown man) to fight a twelve-year old.
    Last edited by Gaius; 10-17-2021 at 11:36 AM.

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