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  1. #2611
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Diana wearing pants is a 50/50 split for me. I'm too much of a fan of the rebirth battle skirt design to want it but, I'm not 100% opposed to it either. I think the only time Diana has looked good in pants is in Injustice 2.


    injustice-2-WW.jpg

    This look would be fire if they kept the gold primary on her metals, kept the golden eagle on her breast plate, and added the rebirth boots.
    wonder boots.jpg

    Unfortunately, Injustice exists and that WW leaves a bad taste in my mouth as a character and her interactions/character arch in the story. So... that costume is out of the question.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  2. #2612
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Etta going back to comic relief would be a thousand steps backwards in terms of representation. It's a stereotypical depiction of both black and fat characters. As for needing to connect to ordinary people, Etta has a job, no super powers and actually looks like a normal person in comparison to the idealized body type superheroes normally have. The military job is not a problem and does allow her to interact with Diana. The Golden Age version frequently went on missions with Diana so her being a soldier isn't unwarranted.
    Eh, this really just boils down to how one perceives Etta and what her role should be in the mythos.

    You say she went on missions in the Golden Age so being a soldier is fair game. I say she went on missions in the Golden Age so she has no need to be a soldier.

    And nobody is saying that Etta should *just* be comedy relief. She wasn't originally, and nobody is saying she should be just that now. And while the "funny, fat best friend" is a bad troupe, so is the "butch lesbian soldier." So the "representation" argument isn't worth much here.

    I'm also not one of those people who complain about the things that make Diana more unique among the DC pantheon (I just complain about the changes I think are dumb). And I'd rather have Etta have a "normal" job; as a soldier she doesn't offer many narrative options that Steve doesn't already cover. Meanwhile, Diana now has like, no civilian friends worth mentioning. So what benefit does Etta the soldier provide? Not much. Etta the civilian? She has more to offer the story, can take the plots into places the soldier can't, has a perspective the soldier doesn't, and can still get down with Diana on missions.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #2613
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Eh, this really just boils down to how one perceives Etta and what her role should be in the mythos.

    You say she went on missions in the Golden Age so being a soldier is fair game. I say she went on missions in the Golden Age so she has no need to be a soldier.

    And nobody is saying that Etta should *just* be comedy relief. She wasn't originally, and nobody is saying she should be just that now. And while the "funny, fat best friend" is a bad troupe, so is the "butch lesbian soldier." So the "representation" argument isn't worth much here.

    I'm also not one of those people who complain about the things that make Diana more unique among the DC pantheon (I just complain about the changes I think are dumb). And I'd rather have Etta have a "normal" job; as a soldier she doesn't offer many narrative options that Steve doesn't already cover. Meanwhile, Diana now has like, no civilian friends worth mentioning. So what benefit does Etta the soldier provide? Not much. Etta the civilian? She has more to offer the story, can take the plots into places the soldier can't, has a perspective the soldier doesn't, and can still get down with Diana on missions.
    I think it comes from the people in charge of Diana finding her uncompelling unless she's effectively Conan, Red Sonja or some other sort of warrior hero. They have done everything they can to push her as a warrior while downplaying any ties she has to, well, common people. It's pretty disheartening because it shows they don't find Wonder Woman all that compelling unless she's swinging a sword around and letting out some battle cry with soldiers in tow, which ten years ago didn't much sound like a well-rounded Diana. That used to be a facet of her character, one only brought out when other options were exhausted. Now it's par the course. She's always got a damn sword these days. Much as Jim Lee can only draw Superman angry and with his eyes glowing red, DC can only envision a Diana who is warlike and surrounded by militaristic people. :/

    It's like they don't believe Wonder Woman can be cool as herself.

  4. #2614
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    Do you know if anyone at DC obtained Charlene Spretnak's permission to borrow from her work? Except for some changes in pronouns and verb tenses, the "Pandora" segment in "Legacy" was taken almost word for word from Spretnak's chapter on Pandora in her book "Lost Goddesses of Early Greece." Even the art matched Ms. Spretnak's verbal descriptions.
    Huh. That's more than I know, and I haven't read Spretnak's book so can't comment on how or if it was used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    Also, can anyone remember in which issue it was explained that Themiscyra's ban on men was based on a fear that the women would turn on one another to fight for the man's attentions? Which female hero guest-starred--Black Canary, Hawkgirl, the Inza Doctor Fate?
    You might be thinking of Wonder Woman v1 #216 "Aphrodite's Law", guest-starring Black Canary.

    One of the pieces of former Amazon lore that really should be run through with a stick and buried in salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Etta was never just comic relief back in the Golden Age, and I feel that both LoWW and Earth One were able to retain the spirit of the original and update her in a modern way and ditch the dated aspects. of the post-COIE versions, only Simone's Etta ever seemed like a natural depiction of what Etta would be like as an adult. The problem with the Perez version is she just never seemed like Etta (a realistic character having body image issues has a place in mainstream comics, but it just doesn't work with Etta specifically), and the military job even put her more on the fringes than she was already. She really doesn't play a big role in that run, and that sort of continues into Rebirth where she is Steve's friend and Barbara Ann's girlfriend, but is otherwise not especially close to Diana and filling a role that can be filled by other characters without any functional difference (Michaelis, Darnell).
    Agreed. One of the things that defined Etta in the Golden Age—and in LoWW and Earth One—is that her primary relationship in the comic is with Diana. She and Steve know each other, but they do so via Diana. Diana is the relationship center, as she should be. By only emphasising Etta's military role, Steve becomes the relationship center in many Wonder Woman stories, and then as he gets written out Etta gets written out as well.

    Now, the movie managed to do a good Etta with a pre-existing relationship with Steve, but I think it's important that they gave her more than a few firm opinions, plenty of personality, and the appearance of an airhead who under that was very capable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I think it comes from the people in charge of Diana finding her uncompelling unless she's effectively Conan, Red Sonja or some other sort of warrior hero. They have done everything they can to push her as a warrior while downplaying any ties she has to, well, common people. It's pretty disheartening because it shows they don't find Wonder Woman all that compelling unless she's swinging a sword around and letting out some battle cry with soldiers in tow, which ten years ago didn't much sound like a well-rounded Diana. That used to be a facet of her character, one only brought out when other options were exhausted. Now it's par the course. She's always got a damn sword these days. Much as Jim Lee can only draw Superman angry and with his eyes glowing red, DC can only envision a Diana who is warlike and surrounded by militaristic people. :/

    It's like they don't believe Wonder Woman can be cool as herself.
    This. Though I think it's more grounded in a refusal to see or understand the feminist and radical core of the character, and thus the repeated desperate attempts to fill it in with something else.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #2615
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    The story really is Diana and Etta's story. Even in the Golden Age, Steve is slightly off-center, orbiting them, except for the Nazi stories, ..where he replaces Etta, beside Diana, in the center. I think this is the 2017 Wonder Woman film's biggest mistake, ..not bringing Diana's and Etta's friendship into the center, beside her love interest in Steve.

    If I were rebooting the WW comic, Steve, a military cargo pilot, and Etta, a young stowaway, would crash on the island, together. The reverse Flash Gordon story - American flyboy is rescued by an exotic princess hero - that brings Diana and Steve together, in the Golden Age, is a holdover, from the pulp men's adventure mags. Bringing Etta in, with Steve, puts her at the center of things, from the very beginning, and I think modern WW writers, who keep ditching her, ..need that, as a guide. Can't believe I'm even thinking this...

    But, I think it's time [No! Don't type it!] someone tweaked Wonder Woman's origin, again.

    I think we have to ask, if it might be time to re-envision Steve Trevor, as something other, than a career military man. In the Forties, he was a soldier in a nation, at war with Nazis. Now, I think Steve needs a rival, a new career challenge, a family or some kind of life struggle, ..outside of stabbing rabid, fairy children, with Diana. Comparatively speaking, Lois Lane's life, as a hustling reporter, makes her interesting, ..while Steve, who often seems as infallible, as Wonder Woman, hasn't a care in the world and is insufferably boring. Steve needs serious work.

    I'm not sure what else you could make him, but, I think the presence of the military in the WW story has to be made more interesting, relevant, ironic ..or jettisoned, altogether! It hasn't been interesting, since World War II.

    As I see it, Diana has a small circle of friends and loyalists, at the center of which is her friendship and adventures, with Etta Candy, ..as are Batman's, with Robin. In the comics, Steve Trevor, a flirtatious friend, and Queen Hippolyta, Diana's Alfred, should be orbiting this inner circle, with some other useful companions, ..orbiting them on an outer ring. Those might be Mala, General Darnell, Ferdinand, I Ching, various other Amazons (Artemis, Queen Desira, Paula, etc), a male rival of Steve's or whoever. Paradise Island is Diana's Batcave, and orbiting all of that, on another outer ring are the Olympian gods, US Military Intelligence, recurring colorful characters, ..but, Diana and Etta should almost always be at the center of everything. I think this should be editorial mandate.

    I think, if you get Diana and Etta right, the rest, including Steve, will fall into place, almost organically. Di, the superhero, and Etta, the heroic everywoman and best friend, driving stories ..are what's missing in most of our presentations of Wonder Woman.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-10-2020 at 08:04 AM.
    COMBINING THE BIGBADITUDE OF THANOS WITH CHEETAH'S FEROCITY, IS JANUS WONDER WOMAN'S GREATEST SUPERVILLAIN?...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  6. #2616
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I want all of WW history to remain as much as possible. Diana can stilk be clay but I still want Zola, First Born, Lennox, Jason, Siracha to exist. The story of the hunt for Zola's baby can remain, Diana just helps because she's a hero, not daughter of Zeus.

  7. #2617
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    It's like they don't believe Wonder Woman can be cool as herself.
    They don't. The only character who can be cool, at least in a way DC and WB understand, is Batman. So their answer to everything becomes "make it more like Batman."

    And that deeply, deeply limited and flawed way of thinking is responsible for nearly every major mistake in direction and characterization DC has made over the last thirty years.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #2618
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Okay, Etta Candy. I love her has the original Etta. Why did Dc make her black? We could have Pepita be in the story. For anyone who wants to know it was Etta's brother finance.

  9. #2619
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    They don't. The only character who can be cool, at least in a way DC and WB understand, is Batman. So their answer to everything becomes "make it more like Batman."

    And that deeply, deeply limited and flawed way of thinking is responsible for nearly every major mistake in direction and characterization DC has made over the last thirty years.
    Hell, it doesn't even really work for Batman. The version they shill is less cool than even the Adam West version.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Okay, Etta Candy. I love her has the original Etta. Why did Dc make her black? We could have Pepita be in the story. For anyone who wants to know it was Etta's brother finance.
    Probably to provide more diverse representation. Which isn't a bad idea in itself, especially for the supporting characters. But if Etta's traditional size and personality can result in potential bad stereotyping if paired with making her black, is it worth it to keep the race bending in her case? Black Etta has really only been prominent in Rucka's Rebirth and Bloodlines, wasn't a huge focus even in those, and had other versions released around that time that were still white (Lucy Davis and Earth One). I don't think it would be a huge deal to make her look like Rebel Wilson again in the main canon if it means she can be herself. Meanwhile, there are a lot of black WW characters that should be utilized more than they are (Philippus, Nubia, Areto, Trevor Barnes and his family, Rachel Keast, etc.).

  10. #2620
    Mighty Member wonder39's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I want all of WW history to remain as much as possible. Diana can stilk be clay but I still want Zola, First Born, Lennox, Jason, Siracha to exist. The story of the hunt for Zola's baby can remain, Diana just helps because she's a hero, not daughter of Zeus.
    All of that does still exist, over on Earth 52...

  11. #2621
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Probably to provide more diverse representation. Which isn't a bad idea in itself, especially for the supporting characters. But if Etta's traditional size and personality can result in potential bad stereotyping if paired with making her black, is it worth it to keep the race bending in her case?
    I don't really support race bending in general (it's just a new form of tokenism most of the time, if not straight up tone-deaf and offensive) but I'm not bothered by Etta being black in and of itself. However, it's not a fair trade at all if it means Etta can't be Etta. That lady is funny, fat, and perfectly fine with both of those things. She is a bright, brilliant ball of entertainment and enjoyment that pushes a body positive mindset simply by being who she is (no heavy handed preaching required), and I bet most of us know someone like her. If making her black steps over a line and enters offensive stereotype territory, then it's not worth it at all. Especially when we've got great black characters already in the DCU who could be used instead.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  12. #2622
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Here is the thing they want a diverse cast fine but Etta had a back history. She is from Texas.

    On a side note.This one has often been a back and forth thing. How tough should Diana's skin be? There are times when things just shutter on her.

  13. #2623
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Here is the thing they want a diverse cast fine but Etta had a back history. She is from Texas.

    On a side note.This one has often been a back and forth thing. How tough should Diana's skin be? There are times when things just shutter on her.
    I'm not trying to be argumentative, but this comment triggered me. Black people are from Texas. Black people are from Africa. Black people are from Europe. There are even Black people who are raised in Asia. I don't understand why being from a certain place in the year 2020 means that should exclude Black people from being a part of the story or narrative.

    That being said, as I already stated, while Etta has issues as a character, being Black is not the root cause of that issue. Etta can still be a vivacious, full-figured woman with a great sense of humor and a strong relationship with Diana if writers chose to focus on that friendship in any meaningful way. They do not. Shea Fontana is the only writer in this continuity who attempted to make their friendship the focal point. Besides from that, Rucka displayed them as close acquaintances before he made Etta outright resentful toward Diana. I don't remember Robertson using her at all. G. Willow Wilson, I only read her first arc as I truly did not like it, but even in that arc I only remember one short and not particularly delightful interaction. With Orlando, I am just now starting to read his arc, but I only see a woman named Nora.

    The issue is not Etta being Black. It is Etta and thus the Diana/Etta relationship not being valued by writers. I know some people discussed concerns of Etta being a stereotype if she is big, loud, and hefty, but personally, I think it's more important to write Etta as a human being with a complex personality like any other human being and with a deep friendship with Diana and Steve.
    Last edited by PopQuezy; 07-18-2020 at 08:53 PM.

  14. #2624

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    Not sure how controversial but...

    I don't see Wonder Woman and Batman as friends. Acquaintances, sure. Co-workers with a mutual respect, absolutely. But actual friends...as in they share a deep bond and kinship akin to what either of them have with Clark respectively? I don't buy it.

    I just don't see Bruce really caring about Diana any more or less than any other hero he interacts with...he's certainly never shown he does as far as I've seen...and I don't see Diana enjoying the company of someone who treats her so coldly.

    And, if we're honest, the only reason we're supposed to think they have some deep, meaningful bond is because they're part of Trinity. It's an obligated afterthought.

  15. #2625
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    Not sure how controversial but...

    I don't see Wonder Woman and Batman as friends. Acquaintances, sure. Co-workers with a mutual respect, absolutely. But actual friends...as in they share a deep bond and kinship akin to what either of them have with Clark respectively? I don't buy it.

    I just don't see Bruce really caring about Diana any more or less than any other hero he interacts with...he's certainly never shown he does as far as I've seen...and I don't see Diana enjoying the company of someone who treats her so coldly.

    And, if we're honest, the only reason we're supposed to think they have some deep, meaningful bond is because they're part of Trinity. It's an obligated afterthought.
    I agree, that the most notable instances of them interacting that occur to me is when she's used to prop up Batman's ego is why I don't care for writers trying to make some meaningful friendship between them.

    I also don't really see someone like Wonder Woman overlooking Bruce's frequent underhanded/duplicitous nature when it comes to his relationships with others. Such as his contingency torture plans for seemingly every member of the League.
    Last edited by Gaius; 07-24-2020 at 07:48 PM.

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