Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[SiegePerilous02]

I feel like Wonder Woman has enough of a fractured fanbase that we really don't need to bring in the legacy debates. Instead of expanding things and unifying the fanbase, it would just make things more fractured like it always does. It's exactly what it does for every IP except for the characters that fall under the JSA umbrella, because it greatly depends on the concept to elevate it.

I also think "Diana is the main character the IP was invented to revolve around so of course she is the most important character" is just common sense, and not some scandalous hot take.

[Agent Z]

And Diana generally can't return to Themyscira, which is just a different version of the same premise as being the last of her kind.

No it isn't. Diana not being able to return home is not the same thing as being an endling and even then this is not the general status quo for her. This was only the case recently with Rucka's second run and even then it didn't last that long.

Don't even know why I responded to any of that, cause it's not about making her different from those two, but expanding her mythos/lore.

You're the one who brought up making her different from Superman and Batman.

And how does her becoming a legacy make her more like them when they aren't legacies? What does that even mean? Are you just being contrarian for the sake of it?

Both Superman and Batman have dealt with the concept of legacy in their stories with Batman having been replaced at least twice. It is not a unique concept to Diana.

Except nobody is claiming this will make her a massive success?

Then what purpose does it serve? Expanding the mythos for the sake of it is not a smart idea if that mythos cannot be justified by critical acclaim and positive response. This book isn't someone's personal DnD campaign.

Another problem with Wonder fans. You think success happens overnight. "Batman became the biggest thing in comics cause of the Dark Knight, so Diana should be able to do that too, and it's the evil writers and editors at DC holding her back". Yea, it has nothing do with the fact that fans are obsessed with making her walk the same path as Batman and Superman, two characters who have had to change over the years, some for the better, others for the worst.

This has nothing to do with rejecting change. This is about what changes should be done with Diana and which ones will do more harm than help. And for someone who with so much disdain for making her too much like Superman and Batman, you're shockingly ignorant as to how much you're making Diana just like numerous other legacy characters in the DCU.

The very mature of Wonder Woman lends itself to being a legacy.

This isn't true just because you keep saying it.

[Marik Swift]

Did these same Champions become Superheroes in Man's World?

Not "superheroes", since that is mostly a modern term, but most of them have been to Man's World and have history with it (including Hippolyta during World War I/II).

Is it really our places to "test" one another on stuff like this? Just because we have differing opinions on how to expand her lore, doesn't mean we don't care about doing it. There really is no final word on this, nor does it mean you get to deem "the lot of us" for not being progressive enough for not agreeing with you.

I never said you don't care about it, but I got tired of quoting everyone's replies and it seemed generally the problem was with Diana not being the first "Wonder Woman", hence the question.

It's a simple question really that avoids a lot of back and forth. Answer it or don't answer it, up to you.

You do know someone on this page actually suggested something like this, right?

And where do you get off judging WW fans for not being progressive or wanting to expand her lore just because they disagree with your ideas?

What does that have to do with anything? And you don't answer a question with a question. I asked a simple question to avoid a lot of back and forth, you can answer it or choose not to answer it. That simple. If me using the term "the lot of you" offends you, then I apologise, now answer the question.

[Tzigone]

I also think "Diana is the main character the IP was invented to revolve around so of course she is the most important character" is just common sense, and not some scandalous hot take.

I halfway agree. I think spinoff characters need to spunoff. And when teens grow up, they leave. They become the main characters in their own lives (and ideally books) instead staying around Diana to be her followers. Certainly you can say it's benefited Batman (though that's kind of reverse, probably and it's more they are there because he's popular), but it has been extremely detrimental to the others as their independence and capabilities have been whittled down so that they are always subordinate to Batman.

But I do want Diana to be the only Wonder Woman, but I am also on record as not favoring legacies in general.

[Gaius]

I'm not opposed to the idea of Diana not being the first/only Amazon Champion to leave Themyscira. As an example, I actually like the Post-Crisis origin of Nubia as the very first Champion from long before she was born.

But the idea of "Wonder Woman" being a legacy with dozens of Amazons through the ages does cheapen her.
Why would Steve Trevor's arrival on Themyscira really matter if Amazons have been sending Champions into the world of men routinely through the ages? Why would Diana's becoming Wonder Woman or her acting as ambassador be notable at all when there have been several before her? Why would the Man's World not react to her with: "Oh. The new one's here."

It reduces Diana to just another Amazon, and also the Amazons and "Wonder Woman" to defenders of the status quo.

I can see the appeal of downplaying the "Chosen One" elements of Diana, and having any Amazon being Wonder Woman can make for a more empowering message (like Into the Spider-Verse's "anyone can wear the mask" message). But I think fans get antsy about legacy because it often does come across that some creators feel Wonder Woman would be great...if she was anybody but Diana.
This seemed most overt in The Odyssey where JMS's approach to fixing Wonder Woman was to change everything about Diana to the point where she was an almost entirely new character.

So, I'd be okay with previous Champions. But only a small handful over the thousands of years. Diana should be the first and definitive "Wonder Woman"

Something like this I think is fine and works within the usual status quo Diana operates in (like in the movie of Diana being raised on stories of her mother and aunt), I'd just also have it set before the island seals itself off from the rest of the world.

[Marik Swift]

I'm not opposed to the idea of Diana not being the first/only Amazon Champion to leave Themyscira. As an example, I actually like the Post-Crisis origin of Nubia as the very first Champion from long before she was born.

But the idea of "Wonder Woman" being a legacy with dozens of Amazons through the ages does cheapen her.
Why would Steve Trevor's arrival on Themyscira really matter if Amazons have been sending Champions into the world of men routinely through the ages? Why would Diana's becoming Wonder Woman or her acting as ambassador be notable at all when there have been several before her? Why would the Man's World not react to her with: "Oh. The new one's here."

It reduces Diana to just another Amazon, and also the Amazons and "Wonder Woman" to defenders of the status quo.

I can see the appeal of downplaying the "Chosen One" elements of Diana, and having any Amazon being Wonder Woman can make for a more empowering message (like Into the Spider-Verse's "anyone can wear the mask" message). But I think fans get antsy about legacy because it often does come across that some creators feel Wonder Woman would be great...if she was anybody but Diana.
This seemed most overt in The Odyssey where JMS's approach to fixing Wonder Woman was to change everything about Diana to the point where she was an almost entirely new character.

So, I'd be okay with previous Champions. But only a small handful over the thousands of years. Diana should be the first and definitive "Wonder Woman"

Well said, completely agree with all of this.

[Frontier]

Not "superheroes", since that is mostly a modern term, but most of them have been to Man's World and have history with it (including Hippolyta during World War I/II).

I think that would be an interesting Elseworlds, but for Diana's story I agree that it's preferable that traveling to Man's World not be that common at a certain point prior to Steve landing on the island.

[SiegePerilous02]

I feel like Hippolyta and the Amazons have an epic enough backstory in ancient Greece (which we will be seeing a version of, including heavily overhauled Amazon characters more diverse in race and body types) that other champions from Themyscira aren't really required. They have a huge unique story in the DC universe, plus the Contest would feel less like an important event if there had been other Amazons leaving. They themselves treat it like a big deal because it would be the first time they've interacted with the outside world since the war with Heracles. it undermines both the weight of the backstory and why they chose to leave, and the importance of Diana becoming Wonder Woman to start the return to the outside world and be a bridge.

But there are of course Amazons factions who broke away from the main group and stayed behind. Most of them settled into becoming the Bana, but there's precedent for others. I think champions emerging from that group and playing major roles in historical events has narrative potential.

[Natamaxxx]

Well said, completely agree with all of this.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

[kjn]

Agree with SiegePerilous02. There are lots of scope for stories about the Amazons in the classical world, both before and after their exile. My head canon (apart from Achilles as an Amazon trans woman) is that Sappho was a Amazon who was outside the first Themyscira when it was captured by Herakles, and thus was not part of the exodus, nor became one of the Bana.

[Gaius]

I think that would be an interesting Elseworlds, but for Diana's story I agree that it's preferable that traveling to Man's World not be that common at a certain point prior to Steve landing on the island.

I feel like Hippolyta and the Amazons have an epic enough backstory in ancient Greece (which we will be seeing a version of, including heavily overhauled Amazon characters more diverse in race and body types) that other champions from Themyscira aren't really required. They have a huge unique story in the DC universe, plus the Contest would feel less like an important event if there had been other Amazons leaving. They themselves treat it like a big deal because it would be the first time they've interacted with the outside world since the war with Heracles. it undermines both the weight of the backstory and why they chose to leave, and the importance of Diana becoming Wonder Woman to start the return to the outside world and be a bridge.

But there are of course Amazons factions who broke away from the main group and stayed behind. Most of them settled into becoming the Bana, but there's precedent for others. I think champions emerging from that group and playing major roles in historical events has narrative potential.

I'm fine with something like some Amazons in the time of the Greek heroes from actual myth that act as maybe folklore heroes for a young Diana (like what the movie did), but yeah, that all happens before Hercules and there's no subsequent ones until Diana in whatever the current time she debuts in

[Guy_McNichts]

This topic about past Champions got me thinking.

I definitely agree with others regarding the importance of Diana leaving the island and being the first Wonder Woman. That's why I suggest, if there are previous Champions, they should be few and far in between. Up to me, I'd say five to six.

But it's got me thinking--if there were previous Amazons to leave Themyscira--what happened to them and what could they add to the lore aside from their own individual adventures?

I already mentioned I like the idea of Nubia being the first Champion from long ago. She should still be around, and she could be the grizzled veteran in contrast to Diana's idealism. But what of the others?

One could find a way back to Themyscira. And she could play a part in Diana's youth--maybe telling her stories of the Man's World and feeding into her desire to leave.
One could chose to stay in the Man's World and perhaps found another tribe of Amazons for Diana to interact with.

At least one of them has to die. Killed by Circe perhaps? Maybe the last Champion was killed, which would add make the Amazons even more reluctant to contact the outside world and make Hippolyta that much more resistant to Diana leaving?

I'm sure some would say one should be the "Wonder Woman" of World War II--Hippolyta herself maybe.

But I'm honestly not a fan of tying Wonder Woman in any way, shape or form to World War II for a variety of reasons, but a big one I'll save for a later post which may arguably be a controversial opinion itself.

[Marik Swift]

This topic about past Champions got me thinking.

I definitely agree with others regarding the importance of Diana leaving the island and being the first Wonder Woman. That's why I suggest, if there are previous Champions, they should be few and far in between. Up to me, I'd say five to six.

But it's got me thinking--if there were previous Amazons to leave Themyscira--what happened to them and what could they add to the lore aside from their own individual adventures?

I already mentioned I like the idea of Nubia being the first Champion from long ago. She should still be around, and she could be the grizzled veteran in contrast to Diana's idealism. But what of the others?

One could find a way back to Themyscira. And she could play a part in Diana's youth--maybe telling her stories of the Man's World and feeding into her desire to leave.
One could chose to stay in the Man's World and perhaps found another tribe of Amazons for Diana to interact with.

At least one of them has to die. Killed by Circe perhaps? Maybe the last Champion was killed, which would add make the Amazons even more reluctant to contact the outside world and make Hippolyta that much more resistant to Diana leaving?

I'm sure some would say one should be the "Wonder Woman" of World War II--Hippolyta herself maybe.

But I'm honestly not a fan of tying Wonder Woman in any way, shape or form to World War II for a variety of reasons, but a big one I'll save for a later post which may arguably be a controversial opinion itself.

Well this is exactly the kind of lore I'm talking about.

Sure, the Amazons themselves have lore that can be expanded upon, but there is no such thing as "too much history". Diana's stories should be able to draw upon the Amazon's history, the champions history, the gods history, other Amazon tribes history, other pantheons history, last Amazon queens' history and so on. The more the better.

Personally I don't think Nubia should have been the first champion, but she definitely should generally be considered by all as the best there ever was.

How many champions there were before Diana would probably be determined by how long the Amazon's themselves have been around. Like if they have been around for 10000 years I think there should be more than 5-6 past champions. I mean what's the generally accepted age of the oldest Amazons these days.

As for the WWII tie in, I feel like it's necessary for JSA stories—although the JSA are generally accepted as being from another Earth these days I guess.

[Vordan]

Not anymore, JSA are back in Earth 0 canon and as of right now Diana canonically fought alongside them during WWII.

[Gaius]

Well this is exactly the kind of lore I'm talking about.

Sure, the Amazons themselves have lore that can be expanded upon, but there is no such thing as "too much history". Diana's stories should be able to draw upon the Amazon's history, the champions history, the gods history, other Amazon tribes history, other pantheons history, last Amazon queens' history and so on. The more the better.

Personally I don't think Nubia should have been the first champion, but she definitely should generally be considered by all as the best there ever was.

How many champions there were before Diana would probably be determined by how long the Amazon's themselves have been around. Like if they have been around for 10000 years I think there should be more than 5-6 past champions. I mean what's the generally accepted age of the oldest Amazons these days.

As for the WWII tie in, I feel like it's necessary for JSA stories—although the JSA are generally accepted as being from another Earth these days I guess.

I don’t particularly find Wonder Woman’s real world history with the JSA to be important enough that it requires upending her origin so there can be some WW stand-in on the JSA whether it be making her debut exclusively always in the 40s or through some previous mantle holder. She isn’t Captain America.