Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Gaius]

I've never been a fan of keeping Wonder Woman in World War II (tied mostly to Diana's age, immortality and other factors), but one thing that's been sticking to me lately is Diana and the Amazons' stated purpose, their mission, is to bring peace and improve the world.
So if Wonder Woman or any Amazon Champion participated in World War II...she failed. She failed as a peacemaker. She failed as a hero.

As much as we (as a country--the United States) love to mythologize WWII because it was the last "good" war with clearly defined "bad guys" that were defeated...there's still the attempted extermination of the Jews, the atrocities the Germans and Russians committed against each other during their fighting, the (arguably) unnecessary bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Among many other things 'cause, you know, it was a freaking war.

Captain America in WWII kind of gets by because he's just a soldier fighting battles and he's not as powerful. But, again, Wonder Woman & the Amazons stated mission is to bring peace. I can't imagine Diana or Hippolyta or any Amazon allowing that to happen, nor do I see them letting politics stop them.

At least the first Wonder Woman movie had her only appear at the end of World War I. And I guarantee the sequel is not going to dwell much (if at all) on what Diana did during the 30's and early 40's. Because there is no good answer unless you go full "alternate history."

This is what I meant when I said making the Amazons a part of past history turns them into defenders of the status quo. Because you have to reconcile how/why a lot of nasty crap happened despite their presence. They either tried to improve things and failed consistently, or felt it wasn't their place to interfere and limited their actions to punching bad guys. The "Why doesn't Superman just fly over and overthrow this dictator" excuse.

That's why it's better narratively for the Amazons to cut themselves off from the world until Diana leaves in modern times. And why I think, if you are going to have previous Amazon Champions, limit to five or six over the thousands of years.

I largely agree, it's another reason why I'm not fond of the seeming new retcon of Diana back to WW2 with #750. Mainly because I don't really see a good enough reason she'd go back to Themyscira following the end of the war only to come back decades later and I also don't really see DC going completely alternate history from 1941 onwards if she stays active up to the present.

[kjn]

Still, I just feel like Wonder Woman has a rich world that should be made the most out of, and would especially go a long way in helping writers find stories to write with her. There should be no shortage of the number of stories that can be told with Diana (there are a lot currently if writers actually gave a damn, but there should be an endless amount).

Hopefully, Kelly Sue DeConnick will show the way with Historia. Because I agree that the Amazons and their backstory deserves to be embellished.

I also think that there is no shortage of Wonder Woman stories that can be told in the present day. But too many of those that are told are thematically meaningless, or go counter to the way the character was constructed. Here I blame DC for their continual and willful inability to work to Wonder Woman's strengths.

[AmiMizuno]

Yea many times they have the writer go to rebuilding Diana and who she is. Never just working what has changed and still tell their stories.

I’m curious Azz set the fact the Amazons would leave the island every 300 years. What if they did have an ambassador at one point and stayed right after Diana was born.

[Agent Z]

Wonder Woman was never a pacifist. Not even when she was written by Marston.

Far too many people don't seem to understand that writing Diana as a capable fighter is not the same thing as turning her into a war hawk.

If you're approaching Diana and the Amazons with the mindset that women using violence is "unfeminine" you are exactly the type of sexist that Diana would hate in real life.

The Amazons being both good scholars and good fighters are not mutually exclusive.

Warriors and soldiers are not the same thing. The Amazons should be written as the latter not the former.

The way some people talk about Diana showing mercy to villains it looks like they can't tell the difference between being kind and being a doormat.

[Gaius]

Wonder Woman was never a pacifist. Not even when she was written by Marston.

Far too many people don't seem to understand that writing Diana as a capable fighter is not the same thing as turning her into a war hawk.

If you're approaching Diana and the Amazons with the mindset that women using violence is "unfeminine" you are exactly the type of sexist that Diana would hate in real life.

The Amazons being both good scholars and good fighters are not mutually exclusive.

Warriors and soldiers are not the same thing. The Amazons should be written as the latter not the former.

The way some people talk about Diana showing mercy to villains it looks like they can't tell the difference between being kind and being a doormat.

I mostly agree with all of these but I'd say the emboldened is more a reaction, or at least perception, by fans at least to that being her predominant trait DC tries to push to differentiate her from characters like Superman. At least in books and media that aren't solo vehicles.

[Perseus]

Wonder Woman was never a pacifist. Not even when she was written by Marston.

Far too many people don't seem to understand that writing Diana as a capable fighter is not the same thing as turning her into a war hawk.

If you're approaching Diana and the Amazons with the mindset that women using violence is "unfeminine" you are exactly the type of sexist that Diana would hate in real life.

The Amazons being both good scholars and good fighters are not mutually exclusive.

Warriors and soldiers are not the same thing. The Amazons should be written as the latter not the former.

The way some people talk about Diana showing mercy to villains it looks like they can't tell the difference between being kind and being a doormat.

Agree to all of this. At time it feels like she's a ping pong ball, just being wacked from one end of the extreme to the other. One minute she's screaming for blood and the next she's playing good cop to a mass murderer.

I'd also add that Diana being a "fish out of water" doesn't make her an idiot.

[AmiMizuno]

Is it impossible to fix Steve ? I mean Perez is great but he harmed Steve’s character. He is a great character just not in cannon

[Gaius]

Is it impossible to fix Steve ? I mean Perez is great but he harmed Steve’s character. He is a great character just not in cannon

Aging up Steve was probably the most interesting thing that could have done with him at the time honestly.

But yeah, Steve in the movie is better than he's usually been in the comics most of the time.

[SiegePerilous02]

Aging up Steve was probably the most interesting thing that could have done with him at the time honestly.

But yeah, Steve in the movie is better than he's usually been in the comics most of the time.

Maybe it seemed interesting at the time, especially for long term readers who had to sit through the tedious stuff they did with them in the Bronze age. But I can't help but think it's not even about Steve at that point, it's more about getting him out of the way

It's also weird that we get a new link between them, Diana being named after his mother, just as he's being aged up and the romance was jettisoned. Ditching the Diana Prince love triangle while also adding this could have allowed a new update of the romance, but not only was that off the table, it didn't even lead to anything substantial with older Steve.

[Gaius]

Maybe it seemed interesting at the time, especially for long term readers who had to sit through the tedious stuff they did with them in the Bronze age. But I can't help but think it's not even about Steve at that point, it's more about getting him out of the way

It's also weird that we get a new link between them, Diana being named after his mother, just as he's being aged up and the romance was jettisoned. Ditching the Diana Prince love triangle while also adding this could have allowed a new update of the romance, but not only was that off the table, it didn't even lead to anything substantial with older Steve.

I think it was a short-term benefit, long-term negative. But yeah, I think aging up him was probably about as much as removing the "falls in love with the first man she sees" trope. An idea not without merit but in hindsight (especially with the movie now) seems like a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Especially as DC seemed to spend the next 20-ish years trying to find a new love interest (so Supes or Bats) or a Steve stand-in.

[Agent Z]

Is it impossible to fix Steve ? I mean Perez is great but he harmed Steve’s character.

I don't think he did. If DC wanted to keep using Steve, nothing was stopping them. The only thing that was off the table was the relationship and it's not like you needed that to keep him around.

Maybe it seemed interesting at the time, especially for long term readers who had to sit through the tedious stuff they did with them in the Bronze age. But I can't help but think it's not even about Steve at that point, it's more about getting him out of the way

It's also weird that we get a new link between them, Diana being named after his mother, just as he's being aged up and the romance was jettisoned. Ditching the Diana Prince love triangle while also adding this could have allowed a new update of the romance, but not only was that off the table, it didn't even lead to anything substantial with older Steve.

You really don't think Steve dating a woman named after his mother wouldn't have been seen as questionable - and that's me putting it kindly - by audiences?

[Zahina]

Agree to all of this. At time it feels like she's a ping pong ball, just being wacked from one end of the extreme to the other. One minute she's screaming for blood and the next she's playing good cop to a mass murderer.

I'd also add that Diana being a "fish out of water" doesn't make her an idiot.

Diana being naive doesn't make her an idiot but at the same time she's described to be "wise as Athena". Shouldn't Wonder Woman be the wisest superhero character because of thousands of years of training and experience as a leader and warrior?

[Agent Z]

Diana being naive doesn't make her an idiot but at the same time she's described to be "wise as Athena". Shouldn't Wonder Woman be the wisest superhero character because of thousands of years of training and experience as a leader and warrior?

The Wisdom of Athena is a problem from a writing standpoint because it is hard, arguably impossible, to write in a believable way and many of Diana's intelligence feats are just her using common sense. Her age is also a factor because how old Diana is isn't always clear but she is always assumed to be the age of a regular person and even then she is often shown leaving the island in contemporary times. Finally, there is the fact that Athena isn't the only knowledge deity in the DC universe where gods of numerous pantheons and religions are shown to exist so Diana having the wisdom of one particular deity wouldn't make her the wisest of superheroes.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think he did. If DC wanted to keep using Steve, nothing was stopping them. The only thing that was off the table was the relationship and it's not like you needed that to keep him around.

It was his main narrative purpose though, same as Lois. Lois just had more work put into her over the years to be a better developed character in her own right.

It's not surprising DC couldn't think of a use for him with what Perez did. His main purpose was gone, and he still wasn't that interesting of a character (if even more boring than he was before). And Etta got stuck with him, so as his purpose faded, she had to go too.

You really don't think Steve dating a woman named after his mother wouldn't have been seen as questionable - and that's me putting it kindly - by audiences?

Yeah, there is that I guess lol.

"She reminds me of my mom!" he even said in Gods and Mortals.

[Gaius]

I thought Rucka and Simone started to find interesting things to with Steve and Etta, while largely keeping in the confines Perez established, though as is usual with WW that got tossed out because DC wanted a new direction.