Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Alpha]

I don't want WW to be solely defined by power level, that's how you end up with Warrior Woman, but to say that power level doesn't matter at all is disingenuous. Marston wanted to create a character who was kind, compassionate and caring but at the same time was powered by the Greek Gods. He didn't want those aspects to be preceived as weak. The most consistent pattern with WW's power level is that they often backslide when she is pit next to Superman, Batman or Aquaman. It rarely goes the other way. That's a discrepancy that needs to be pointed out and remedied, imo and that's something that can be fixed without turning comics into a mindless brawl between characters.

Marston's Diana wasn't powered by the gods. Aphrodite gave her life and that's it. She was the strongest of the amazons because she herself was extraordinary, not because of the gods. Robert Kanighter was the one that added the thing about each of the gods blessing her with super powers.

[I'm a Fish]

I agree with this and the power levels matter, but I do agree with the other posters that having 3-4 separate threads devoted to this topic gets very exhausting.

I think all the regular know where each other stand at this point.

Between WW84 and the new animated movie sometimes it feels like it's been longer than 3 days. I just gotta learn how to not respond to messages sometimes...

-

I honestly didn't notice she was less powerful than her Post-Crisis self until I started reading these boards on a regulars basis (which was like, 4 months ago.).

[Robanker]

Whoops, typed that incorrectly. I was agreeing with you.

What I get for typing on a phone.

Just Skynet trying to subtly break friendships. Pay it no mind, man. All good vibes here.

I don't want WW to be solely defined by power level, that's how you end up with Warrior Woman, but to say that power level doesn't matter at all is disingenuous. Marston wanted to create a character who was kind, compassionate and caring but at the same time was powered by the Greek Gods. He didn't want those aspects to be preceived as weak. The most consistent pattern with WW's power level is that they often backslide when she is pit next to Superman, Batman or Aquaman. It rarely goes the other way. That's a discrepancy that needs to be pointed out and remedied, imo and that's something that can be fixed without turning comics into a mindless brawl between characters.

Sure, but just like Superman was created to be the biggest bully in the room (who conveniently was always in the little guy's corner and only directed his aggression to people who deserved it), the minute interconnected universes are introduced, the game of give-and-take begins. Should Diana always be in the upper echelon of power, skills and competence? Absolutely. Is it a disservice when she loses a fight to other characters designed to be the apex figure of their own IP? I would argue no, it just has to make sense given the context of the story or world. It has to be well-written. I agree that Arthur is beneath Diana on any given Sunday, but I don't think he's a pushover either. I normally give her a 70-30 edge over Superman in fights (and that's accounting for his plot armor) but literally none of those fights would ever be one-sided. Each of the Big Seven are designed to be world busters in their own way (yes, even Batman, though arguably he should lose to all of them on any given Sunday). But the way people seem to want Diana portrayed when she has to fight her friends is essentially just asking a disservice be done to those characters as well. It's like how salty Superman fans (and yes, I can be one from time-to-time) just want Clark to slap Bruce around and give him a wedgie to remind him he's not all that. Is it cathartic? Yeah. It's also not good writing.

Diana in the JSA movie is not her jobbing. It took everyone down to "golden age" power levels where they're more in-line with very early golden age Superman so the war effort wouldn't feel ridiculous. Diana in DCeased getting one-punched? Diana in both cuts of the Justice League movie getting knocked down effortlessly by Superman? That's real jobbing, son, and that's the problem. Sadly it comes a lot at when she faces Clark, so hopefully that changes or DC needs to put a restraining order on those two until DC can learn to respect both simultaneously.

(This next paragraph isn't directed to anyone in particular but more the general argument that the JSA movie's Diana is in any way even in the upper echelon of problems with that film)

The Diana of the JSA movie is among the strongest figures in that film. Keep in mind Superman is mostly just trashing planes and hopping. Diana is taking out U-Boats underwater and fighting the big bad (another of the Big 7) and destroys Poseidon's Trident. She is treated as the biggest gun in the film. Yes, she gets roughed up. Complaining that she had trouble with her arch rival but still came out on top feels like those Superman fans who complain that Clark in any universe doesn't line-up with All-Star Superman's power levels. It's an Elseworlds. She's treated with dignity and respect as much as anyone else. You mean to tell me in a movie where Alan Scott doesn't exist on the Justice Society of America, Barry Allen has to teach Jay Garrick how to do basic Flash **** and Aquaman is literally a Nazi stooge that Wonder Woman is done the biggest disservice? You guys do realize Aquaman was co-created by Mort Weisinger (who was Jewish), right? It's not even an Overman situation-- it's Aquaman proper. Mind controlled and goose stepping with the Nazis. Yeah bro, tell me more about how Diana kicking his ass with some difficulty is the biggest problem. At worst they did the usual superhero "we fight twice and each win once to appease both parties of fans" nonsense but I'd argue Diana's victory at the end was pretty conclusive. She broke the trident. You don't micdrop any harder on Aquaman than that outside of killing his son. It's like breaking the lasso for reference to Diana's fanbase. It's a big goddamn deal.

She's strong. She's compassionate. She loves and is kind. These are all vital aspects to the character, but much like we've established multiple times that spectacle and raw power alone doesn't make Superman interesting, I'd argue it doesn't make Diana interesting either. I agree, that's how you get Warrior Woman and I find her dreadfully dull-- the poor man's Xena or Red Sonja-- but that doesn't make Wonder Woman.

[I'm a Fish]

(This next paragraph isn't directed to anyone in particular but more the general argument that the JSA movie's Diana is in any way even in the upper echelon of problems with that film)

The Diana of the JSA movie is among the strongest figures in that film. Keep in mind Superman is mostly just trashing planes and hopping. Diana is taking out U-Boats underwater and fighting the big bad (another of the Big 7) and destroys Poseidon's Trident. She is treated as the biggest gun in the film. Yes, she gets roughed up. Complaining that she had trouble with her arch rival but still came out on top feels like those Superman fans who complain that Clark in any universe doesn't line-up with All-Star Superman's power levels. It's an Elseworlds. She's treated with dignity and respect as much as anyone else. You mean to tell me in a movie where Alan Scott doesn't exist on the Justice Society of America, Barry Allen has to teach Jay Garrick how to do basic Flash **** and Aquaman is literally a Nazi stooge that Wonder Woman is done the biggest disservice? You guys do realize Aquaman was co-created by Mort Weisinger (who was Jewish), right? It's not even an Overman situation-- it's Aquaman proper. Mind controlled and goose stepping with the Nazis. Yeah bro, tell me more about how Diana kicking his ass with some difficulty is the biggest problem. At worst they did the usual superhero "we fight twice and each win once to appease both parties of fans" nonsense but I'd argue Diana's victory at the end was pretty conclusive. She broke the trident. You don't micdrop any harder on Aquaman than that outside of killing his son. It's like breaking the lasso for reference to Diana's fanbase. It's a big goddamn deal.

She's strong. She's compassionate. She loves and is kind. These are all vital aspects to the character, but much like we've established multiple times that spectacle and raw power alone doesn't make Superman interesting, I'd argue it doesn't make Diana interesting either. I agree, that's how you get Warrior Woman and I find her dreadfully dull-- the poor man's Xena or Red Sonja-- but that doesn't make Wonder Woman.

Also the movie ending is such a manner that no one acknowledges it wasn't Aquaman's fault.... I'm guessing that's like, some sequel bait or somethin'

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Diana getting launched out of a torpedo launcher was the best part of the movie for me.

[Robanker]

Also the movie ending is such a manner that no one acknowledges it wasn't Aquaman's fault.... I'm guessing that's like, some sequel bait or somethin'

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Diana getting launched out of a torpedo launcher was the best part of the movie for me.

That and Superman showing up in a choppy (thank you strobbing lights) film reel to stomp Nazi bombers were it for me. There's a lot to like in that movie but I'm still unpacking Nazi Aquaman.

[Gaius]

Just Skynet trying to subtly break friendships. Pay it no mind, man. All good vibes here.



Sure, but just like Superman was created to be the biggest bully in the room (who conveniently was always in the little guy's corner and only directed his aggression to people who deserved it), the minute interconnected universes are introduced, the game of give-and-take begins. Should Diana always be in the upper echelon of power, skills and competence? Absolutely. Is it a disservice when she loses a fight to other characters designed to be the apex figure of their own IP? I would argue no, it just has to make sense given the context of the story or world. It has to be well-written. I agree that Arthur is beneath Diana on any given Sunday, but I don't think he's a pushover either. I normally give her a 70-30 edge over Superman in fights (and that's accounting for his plot armor) but literally none of those fights would ever be one-sided. Each of the Big Seven are designed to be world busters in their own way (yes, even Batman, though arguably he should lose to all of them on any given Sunday). But the way people seem to want Diana portrayed when she has to fight her friends is essentially just asking a disservice be done to those characters as well. It's like how salty Superman fans (and yes, I can be one from time-to-time) just want Clark to slap Bruce around and give him a wedgie to remind him he's not all that. Is it cathartic? Yeah. It's also not good writing.

Diana in the JSA movie is not her jobbing. It took everyone down to "golden age" power levels where they're more in-line with very early golden age Superman so the war effort wouldn't feel ridiculous. Diana in DCeased getting one-punched? Diana in both cuts of the Justice League movie getting knocked down effortlessly by Superman? That's real jobbing, son, and that's the problem. Sadly it comes a lot at when she faces Clark, so hopefully that changes or DC needs to put a restraining order on those two until DC can learn to respect both simultaneously.

(This next paragraph isn't directed to anyone in particular but more the general argument that the JSA movie's Diana is in any way even in the upper echelon of problems with that film)

The Diana of the JSA movie is among the strongest figures in that film. Keep in mind Superman is mostly just trashing planes and hopping. Diana is taking out U-Boats underwater and fighting the big bad (another of the Big 7) and destroys Poseidon's Trident. She is treated as the biggest gun in the film. Yes, she gets roughed up. Complaining that she had trouble with her arch rival but still came out on top feels like those Superman fans who complain that Clark in any universe doesn't line-up with All-Star Superman's power levels. It's an Elseworlds. She's treated with dignity and respect as much as anyone else. You mean to tell me in a movie where Alan Scott doesn't exist on the Justice Society of America, Barry Allen has to teach Jay Garrick how to do basic Flash **** and Aquaman is literally a Nazi stooge that Wonder Woman is done the biggest disservice? You guys do realize Aquaman was co-created by Mort Weisinger (who was Jewish), right? It's not even an Overman situation-- it's Aquaman proper. Mind controlled and goose stepping with the Nazis. Yeah bro, tell me more about how Diana kicking his ass with some difficulty is the biggest problem. At worst they did the usual superhero "we fight twice and each win once to appease both parties of fans" nonsense but I'd argue Diana's victory at the end was pretty conclusive. She broke the trident. You don't micdrop any harder on Aquaman than that outside of killing his son. It's like breaking the lasso for reference to Diana's fanbase. It's a big goddamn deal.

She's strong. She's compassionate. She loves and is kind. These are all vital aspects to the character, but much like we've established multiple times that spectacle and raw power alone doesn't make Superman interesting, I'd argue it doesn't make Diana interesting either. I agree, that's how you get Warrior Woman and I find her dreadfully dull-- the poor man's Xena or Red Sonja-- but that doesn't make Wonder Woman.

Yeah, I wasn't aware Aquaman's co-creator was Jewish but I can't say I was a fan of Aquaman going "Heil Hitler" from the clips I've seen. Mind control is one thing, doing real world Nazi stuff is another.

[WonderLight789]

Just Skynet trying to subtly break friendships. Pay it no mind, man. All good vibes here.



Sure, but just like Superman was created to be the biggest bully in the room (who conveniently was always in the little guy's corner and only directed his aggression to people who deserved it), the minute interconnected universes are introduced, the game of give-and-take begins. Should Diana always be in the upper echelon of power, skills and competence? Absolutely. Is it a disservice when she loses a fight to other characters designed to be the apex figure of their own IP? I would argue no, it just has to make sense given the context of the story or world. It has to be well-written. I agree that Arthur is beneath Diana on any given Sunday, but I don't think he's a pushover either. I normally give her a 70-30 edge over Superman in fights (and that's accounting for his plot armor) but literally none of those fights would ever be one-sided. Each of the Big Seven are designed to be world busters in their own way (yes, even Batman, though arguably he should lose to all of them on any given Sunday). But the way people seem to want Diana portrayed when she has to fight her friends is essentially just asking a disservice be done to those characters as well. It's like how salty Superman fans (and yes, I can be one from time-to-time) just want Clark to slap Bruce around and give him a wedgie to remind him he's not all that. Is it cathartic? Yeah. It's also not good writing.

Diana in the JSA movie is not her jobbing. It took everyone down to "golden age" power levels where they're more in-line with very early golden age Superman so the war effort wouldn't feel ridiculous. Diana in DCeased getting one-punched? Diana in both cuts of the Justice League movie getting knocked down effortlessly by Superman? That's real jobbing, son, and that's the problem. Sadly it comes a lot at when she faces Clark, so hopefully that changes or DC needs to put a restraining order on those two until DC can learn to respect both simultaneously.

(This next paragraph isn't directed to anyone in particular but more the general argument that the JSA movie's Diana is in any way even in the upper echelon of problems with that film)

The Diana of the JSA movie is among the strongest figures in that film. Keep in mind Superman is mostly just trashing planes and hopping. Diana is taking out U-Boats underwater and fighting the big bad (another of the Big 7) and destroys Poseidon's Trident. She is treated as the biggest gun in the film. Yes, she gets roughed up. Complaining that she had trouble with her arch rival but still came out on top feels like those Superman fans who complain that Clark in any universe doesn't line-up with All-Star Superman's power levels. It's an Elseworlds. She's treated with dignity and respect as much as anyone else. You mean to tell me in a movie where Alan Scott doesn't exist on the Justice Society of America, Barry Allen has to teach Jay Garrick how to do basic Flash **** and Aquaman is literally a Nazi stooge that Wonder Woman is done the biggest disservice? You guys do realize Aquaman was co-created by Mort Weisinger (who was Jewish), right? It's not even an Overman situation-- it's Aquaman proper. Mind controlled and goose stepping with the Nazis. Yeah bro, tell me more about how Diana kicking his ass with some difficulty is the biggest problem. At worst they did the usual superhero "we fight twice and each win once to appease both parties of fans" nonsense but I'd argue Diana's victory at the end was pretty conclusive. She broke the trident. You don't micdrop any harder on Aquaman than that outside of killing his son. It's like breaking the lasso for reference to Diana's fanbase. It's a big goddamn deal.

She's strong. She's compassionate. She loves and is kind. These are all vital aspects to the character, but much like we've established multiple times that spectacle and raw power alone doesn't make Superman interesting, I'd argue it doesn't make Diana interesting either. I agree, that's how you get Warrior Woman and I find her dreadfully dull-- the poor man's Xena or Red Sonja-- but that doesn't make Wonder Woman.

At the end of the day. The truth is in the pudding. WW lost to AQ in the JKL cartoon. Struggled against him in flashpoint. And couldn't match his strength on land in the new movie. Superman never gets to be seen struggling with heroes such as AQ in these movies. So the treatment is not equal. She can't be as strong as SM. But apparently, she can't even be as strong as AQ on land now either. So yeah, for me this is a major let down. WW nowadays is all hype but no showings.

[WonderLight789]

I agree with this and the power levels matter, but I do agree with the other posters that having 3-4 separate threads devoted to this topic gets very exhausting.

I think all the regular know where each other stand at this point.

As things stand right now. AQ is stronger than WW in the new movie. And just as strong in the comics based on current fights and statements. Good for AQ that he is getting more love. But WW's power level going down compared to previous versions is a fact.

[I'm a Fish]

That and Superman showing up in a choppy (thank you strobbing lights) film reel to stomp Nazi bombers were it for me. There's a lot to like in that movie but I'm still unpacking Nazi Aquaman.

Yeah...at least he was mind controlled and not full on Captain America Hydra agent....but I didn't want their final fight to be her fighting a mind controlled good guy when she could have easily helped him. Aquaman was just as much a victim as everyone else his army was forced to attack, but the movie kind of brushed over that him and his people didn't have any control over this.

And Wonder Woman was literally the perfect person to end this peacefully and...aaHHHHHH. Yes, let's lets make Aquaman a Nazi meat puppet and Wonder Woman a dummy who doesn't know how her own Lasso works... (or maybe worse, doesn't care)

[Gaius]

As things stand right now. AQ is stronger than WW in the new movie. And just as strong in the comics based on current fights and statements. Good for AQ that he is getting more love. But WW's power level going down compared to previous versions is a fact.

I mean, I'm a bigger Diana fan than I am of Arthur but I can't imagine many Aquaman fans want their boy's latest outing in showing off "feats" in DC's new animated output comes with the caveat of being a Nazi puppet.

Same as I can't care about Diana absolutely stomping Clark in the Injustice prequel comics, it's a version of the character and universe I detest so I don't care what bones they throw our way to make up for it.

[Robanker]

Yeah...at least he was mind controlled and not full on Captain America Hydra agent....but I didn't want their final fight to be her fighting a mind controlled good guy when she could have easily helped him. Aquaman was just as much a victim as everyone else his army was forced to attack, but the movie kind of brushed over that him and his people didn't have any control over this.

And Wonder Woman was literally the perfect person to end this peacefully and...aaHHHHHH. Yes, let's lets make Aquaman a Nazi meat puppet and Wonder Woman a dummy who doesn't know how her own Lasso works... (or maybe worse, doesn't care)

Why they even brought up the lasso is itself maddening. If she just didn't have it I'd live with it but it's literally RIGHT THERE. WHY ISN'T SHE JUST THROWING IT AROUND ARTHUR AND CALLING IT A DAY? The movie should have ended with Arthur and Diana riding sea kaiju to Berlin with the rest of the JSA surfing a massive tidal wave to the tune of the Andrews Sisters. Alas, goose egg.

The whole time I was thinking "and now she gets the lasso around him and Arthur does his redemption arc and we kill Steve to motivate Barry into proposing because Matt Bomer needs to end his animated DC movies by proposing" but instead she just forgot the damn thing existed. I swear, modern DC (and I'm starting to think fans) really hate Wonder Woman. Warrior Woman was definitely who showed up to fight Arthur. Real shame.

At least Bomer didn't disappoint. He's 2/2 at playing the likable protagonist who is struggling with her relationship balancing superheroics/personal connections and ends the film proposing to long-time iconic love interest. Make it a hat trick, my man!

I mean, I'm a bigger Diana fan than I am of Arthur but I can't imagine many Aquaman fans want their boy's latest outing in showing off "feats" in DC's new animated output comes with the caveat of being a Nazi puppet.

Same as I can't care about Diana absolutely stomping Clark in the Injustice prequel comics, it's a version of the character and universe I detest so I don't care what bones they throw our way to make up for it.

Don't forget the other personal favorite chestnut, "and then Steve was a nazi."

As things stand right now. AQ is stronger than WW in the new movie. And just as strong in the comics based on current fights and statements. Good for AQ that he is getting more love. But WW's power level going down compared to previous versions is a fact.

I love Arthur and Diana relatively equally and let me tell you, my boy didn't get any "love" in this. If you honestly think fans love to see their boy turn into a nazi so long as he gets to punch people around, you're seriously delusional. They turned him into a nazi, mind-controlled or no. He was fighting to further the whims of a genocidal REAL WORLD army that almost took over the world and exterminated millions of people. I don't care who it happens to and who they beat under that influence, that's never fun for a fan to see a beloved character morph into.

Aquaman didn't get any love in this movie. He got much the opposite. You mentioned Flashpoint as well. Yeah, I love ultra militaristic jackbooted thug Aquaman who cheated on Mera and was destroying the world. Oh wait, no, it absolutely goddamn sucks. Are you seriously equating strength to appreciation? Christ. I hope tomorrow an alternate universe Diana appears in a book wearing the skulls of the JLA, Spectre, Presence, Spider-Man, Goku, Captain Kirk and Atlas and then bench presses the multiverse while simultaneously murdering everyone in it so you can genuinely smile that she finally got "respected."

[WonderLight789]

I mean, I'm a bigger Diana fan than I am of Arthur but I can't imagine many Aquaman fans want their boy's latest outing in showing off "feats" in DC's new animated output comes with the caveat of being a Nazi puppet.

Same as I can't care about Diana absolutely stomping Clark in the Injustice prequel comics, it's a version of the character and universe I detest so I don't care what bones they throw our way to make up for it.

AQ has had more opportunities to show super strtength in a big way than WW in current comics. So it's not like this is only happening in movies. And i wouldn't like to see WW struggling with AQ on land in any version anyway. But hey that is just me.

[I'm a Fish]

Why they brought up the lasso is itself maddening. If she just didn't have it I'd live with it but it's literally RIGHT THERE. WHY ISN'T SHE JUST THROWING IT AROUND ARTHUR AND CALLING IT A DAY? The movie should have ended with Arthur and Diana riding sea kaiju to Berlin with the rest of the JSA surfing a massive tidal wave to the tune of the Andrews Sisters. Alas, goose egg.

And then the two of them could have bonded over being able to talk to sea life. Also, when will that power of hers be put into a cartoon? It's not even in the cute DC Superhero Girls cartoon!!! (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

[Robanker]

And then the two of them could have bonded over being able to talk to sea life. Also, when will that power of hers be put into a cartoon? It's not even in the cute DC Superhero Girls cartoon!!! (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

My favorite image of Diana is by Steve Rude where she's just playing with children and animals, holding a bunny. My girlfriend got me the print and I have it up on my wall. I'm baffled we've never seen that ability of hers animated. It's goddamn heartwarming.

[I'm a Fish]

My favorite image of Diana is by Steve Rude where she's just playing with children and animals, holding a bunny. My girlfriend got me the print and I have it up on my wall. I'm baffled we've never seen that ability of hers animated. It's goddamn heartwarming.

I think WB is worried it will make her look too much like a Disney princess. Which, if's that's the case is the dumbest reason.