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  1. #3346
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    She is not fighting like a brawler there. She is using fighting technique, acrobatics and the lasso.

  2. #3347
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If Diana fights unarmed, then the Lasso is just as invalid as the sword and shield. Secondly, if Diana is approaching her fights like a wrestler then she is doing something wrong since her foes are not following the rules of a wrestling match and most of them are willing to kill her.

    Diana as you see her is not only incompatible with how she has been depicted in the comics but doesn't even make sense for her character and arguably makes her look worse.
    The whole point of the lasso is that it is an unbreakable artifact that has reach and can restrain people. It's an extension of her grappling techniques. The sword and shield are obviously incompatible with this fighting style, but the lasso isn't whatsoever.

    And why wouldn't wrestling make sense for Diana? She grew up on Paradise Island. These people weren't fighting for their lives, they exercised for sport. They were athletes and above all others, Diana is the one that never needed a sword or a spear, or a bow. Why would amazons train with lethal weapons constantly instead of really testing their incredible strength and technique with wrestling. Unless you subscribe to the Doom's doorway concept, which I never liked because it takes away from the fantasy that the amazons represent.

    Wrestling is a much more appropriate way of approaching some of the themes that Marston himself put into his books, like the bdsm. Instead of the rope and chains thing being sexual, it's about dominance and the challenge of strength combined with technique. I think it's absolutely perfect and there are various examples of Diana wrestling over the years, from Marston to Kanighter to the modern age, both in comics and in other adaptations like that clip someone else posted above.
    Last edited by Alpha; 04-14-2021 at 04:02 PM.

  3. #3348
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Diana, someone that is know to be the best melee fighter in the universe, can't incorporate multiple different MMA techniques now? Seriously... she can punch, kick, grapple, perform takedowns, and switch seamlessly between forms. lets not put her in a shoebox when in comes to this. She's the premiere fighter on the league; someone with the strength, speed, and power of Superman with better overall skills then Batman.
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  4. #3349
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    She is not fighting like a brawler there. She is using fighting technique, acrobatics and the lasso.
    Who said anything about her being a brawler? I never mentioned boxing, just Wrestling. Wrestling is mostly about grappling. Restraining someone and pressuring them into submission. Punches and kicks are only used to wear out the other person so you can more easily maintain the grapple. In that clip you see Diana try to grapple Superwoman twice and even finishes with the brilliant word "submit". This would certainly make Marston proud.

  5. #3350
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Diana, someone that is know to be the best melee fighter in the universe, can't incorporate multiple different MMA techniques now? Seriously... she can punch, kick, grapple, perform takedowns, and switch seamlessly between forms. lets not put her in a shoebox when in comes to this. She's the premiere fighter on the league; someone with the strength, speed, and power of Superman with better overall skills then Batman.
    I'm not trying to discuss her fighting technique, I'm discussing her archetype. A warrior is someone who attacks. A wrestler is someone who dominates. And a Wrestler is about the pure enjoyment of challenging your strength and technique, whereas a Warrior is about either killing your opponent or harming them enough so that they can no longer fight, but it's always through pain, not through exaustion (a Wrestler is all about exaustion).

  6. #3351
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Man, have I gotten sick of comic fans hiding behind "would make [insert the creator] proud" to justify their own opinions on a character.
    Last edited by Gaius; 04-14-2021 at 04:18 PM.

  7. #3352
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The whole point of the lasso is that it is an unbreakable artifact that has reach and can restrain people. It's an extension of her grappling techniques. The sword and shield are obviously incompatible with this fighting style, but the lasso isn't whatsoever.

    And why wouldn't wrestling make sense for Diana? She grew up on Paradise Island. These people weren't fighting for their lives, they exercised for sport. They were athletes and above all others, Diana is the one that never needed a sword or a spear, or a bow. Why would amazons train with lethal weapons constantly instead of really testing their incredible strength and technique with wrestling. Unless you subscribe to the Doom's doorway concept, which I never liked because it takes away from the fantasy that the amazons represent.

    Wrestling is a much more appropriate way of approaching some of the themes that Marston himself put into his books, like the bdsm. Instead of the rope and chains thing being sexual, it's about dominance and the challenge of strength combined with technique. I think it's absolutely perfect and there are various examples of Diana wrestling over the years, from Marston to Kanighter to the modern age, both in comics and in other adaptations like that clip someone else posted above.
    Dooms doorway, the magic gateway to the prison of the underworld that the amazons are tasked with guarding, the thing that gives the amazons some reason or purpose to advance as a culture and have responsibility as defenders of Earth, takes away what exactly? What do the amazons represent to you? because I guarantee whatever it is it can fit in with Dooms doorway.

    Implying that wrestling should be the only or even just premiere fighting style that Diana has under her belt. Definitely sounds like limiting her for no reason. Marston, as much as I like what he created should not be the singular vision for the character who has now 80+ years of history to select from.
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  8. #3353
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    One of the reasons I don't like the archetype of the warrior combined with Diana is because it hurts the fantasy of this character. At best it turns her into Aang from Avatar when he uses firebending. A peaceful person whose circumstances force him to use violence despite not enjoying it. Diana doesn't want to stab anyone with a sword, but they force her to do it. She doesn't want to punch them in the face, but they give her no choice. A lot of the Perez stories remind me of this (Phil Jiminez also has a little bit of this but I still enjoy his for the most part). Diana can't really enjoy what she does because it's contradictory with her philosophy.

    But the Wrestler archetype really frees her of this anguish. Diana isn't attacking anyone, she is contesting them. Playing with them. Testing them and incapacitating. This is something she can do and have fun with. It's not contradictory to her peace seeking ways because it isn't about harming someone. And with this fighting mindset she can control her own strength based on who she is challenging. I like to think that she would even fight with the Holliday girls but she would make sure she only gently held them so that they could still escape her grabs and improve themselves.

  9. #3354
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I'm not trying to discuss her fighting technique, I'm discussing her archetype. A warrior is someone who attacks. A wrestler is someone who dominates. And a Wrestler is about the pure enjoyment of challenging your strength and technique, whereas a Warrior is about either killing your opponent or harming them enough so that they can no longer fight, but it's always through pain, not through exaustion (a Wrestler is all about exaustion).
    here we are again with the warrior as the D&D archetype and nothing more. No, being a warrior just means a person that fights, its not strictly about killing, wrestlers are by definition warriors. Wrestlers harm their opponents... exaustion maybe the goal but its still violent; you can break bones, twist too far, cause severe lasting damage. She can be a wrestler and still be considered a warrior.
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  10. #3355
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Hey if Dc wanted Diana to be a Demi-Goddess wouldn't the easiest way would be through her mother? Ares has a few times through Wonder Woman called Hippoltya his daughter. instead of the easiest Zeus is the father? Wouldn't it be more interesting the Amazons turning their backs towards Ares?
    Why not both? As if Zeus would care. He'd probably just think it made her more fun. Also if her father is a mortal you have to answer the question of why?
    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Dooms doorway, the magic gateway to the prison of the underworld that the amazons are tasked with guarding, the thing that gives the amazons some reason or purpose to advance as a culture and have responsibility as defenders of Earth, takes away what exactly? What do the amazons represent to you? because I guarantee whatever it is it can fit in with Dooms doorway.

    Implying that wrestling should be the only or even just premiere fighting style that Diana has under her belt. Definitely sounds like limiting her for no reason. Marston, as much as I like what he created should not be the singular vision for the character who has now 80+ years of history to select from.
    Yeah never have I met an actual martial artist who is a "purist" and only studies a single style.

  11. #3356
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    One of the reasons I don't like the archetype of the warrior combined with Diana is because it hurts the fantasy of this character. At best it turns her into Aang from Avatar when he uses firebending. A peaceful person whose circumstances force him to use violence despite not enjoying it. Diana doesn't want to stab anyone with a sword, but they force her to do it. She doesn't want to punch them in the face, but they give her no choice. A lot of the Perez stories remind me of this (Phil Jiminez also has a little bit of this but I still enjoy his for the most part). Diana can't really enjoy what she does because it's contradictory with her philosophy.

    But the Wrestler archetype really frees her of this anguish. Diana isn't attacking anyone, she is contesting them. Playing with them. Testing them and incapacitating. This is something she can do and have fun with. It's not contradictory to her peace seeking ways because it isn't about harming someone. And with this fighting mindset she can control her own strength based on who she is challenging. I like to think that she would even fight with the Holliday girls but she would make sure she only gently held them so that they could still escape her grabs and improve themselves.
    I feel like you kind of misinterpreted this, Aang discovered that fire is life and energy not just destruction. Fire like any other element can be used to harm people; Kuvira and her imperialistic earth empire, Zaheer and his violent air bending techniques, Bloodbending. Its who you are and how you choose to use your element that shows the world who you are.

    Diana doesn't punch out of malice or anger, she never tries to actually kill her villains. When she is forced to do it she is sad, but she's pragmatic and recognizes that a villain has gone too far, heck most of the people she's "killed" are immortal and never truly died or just came back in someway.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  12. #3357
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Man, have I gotten sick of comic fans hiding behind "would make [insert the creator] proud" to justify their own opinions on a character.
    Fair enough. I don't think what I wrote was baseless, but you have the right to dismiss it.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Dooms doorway, the magic gateway to the prison of the underworld that the amazons are tasked with guarding, the thing that gives the amazons some reason or purpose to advance as a culture and have responsibility as defenders of Earth, takes away what exactly? What do the amazons represent to you? because I guarantee whatever it is it can fit in with Dooms doorway.

    Implying that wrestling should be the only or even just premiere fighting style that Diana has under her belt. Definitely sounds like limiting her for no reason. Marston, as much as I like what he created should not be the singular vision for the character who has now 80+ years of history to select from.
    Once again, I'm not trying to discuss her fighting style, I'm discussing her archetype and mindset. And while I do think Marston's era had some particular strengths that were lost through time, I still don't limit this interpretation to that era.

    My problem with Doom's doorway is that the Amazons are a liberation fantasy. What if women that historically were enslaved and abused were able to escape this world for a paradise. A place where they were free to live as they see fit and reach their full potential. I really like how Perez focussed on this idea of healing from trauma. But then he inserts this concept of the Doom's Doorway and now the Amazons aren't in that paradise for themselves, they are there to protect us, the people that hurt them.

    Imagine if you did this with Wakanda. This liberation utopia for an advanced civilization free of colonialism, and now they were only in that kingdom so they could protect Europe from monsters. It's even worse with the Amazons because in Perez's version these women had past lives where they were mistreated, and yet they carry the burden of protecting the world they escaped.

    Diana is the one that should adventure outside the Island seeking challenges and wanting to discover the wonders of the world, both beautiful and ugly. And along the way she carries with her the ideals of her birthplace, of love and community, and step by step she heals the world inadvertibly. The rest of the amazons are free to care about this world, but I see no reason to place that responsibility onto them.

  13. #3358
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I feel like you kind of misinterpreted this, Aang discovered that fire is life and energy not just destruction. Fire like any other element can be used to harm people; Kuvira and her imperialistic earth empire, Zaheer and his violent air bending techniques, Bloodbending. Its who you are and how you choose to use your element that shows the world who you are.

    Diana doesn't punch out of malice or anger, she never tries to actually kill her villains. When she is forced to do it she is sad, but she's pragmatic and recognizes that a villain has gone too far, heck most of the people she's "killed" are immortal and never truly died or just came back in someway.
    I remember the two dragons and the rainbow flames, but fire is none the less the most agressive of the elements and represents Aang at his most agressive.

    Again, I'm not saying Diana using violence makes her angry, but it is something she often does relunctually. She is forced to do it, but it's against her primal desires. It's a roadblock you put in a character that historically has been filled with a lack of agency and fulfillment. It holds her back from actually being a female fantasy because as Wolverine likes to say "I'm the best at what I do, and what I do isn't very nice". Her nature is against punching, but all we ever see is her punching or kicking or stabbing.

  14. #3359
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    here we are again with the warrior as the D&D archetype and nothing more. No, being a warrior just means a person that fights, its not strictly about killing, wrestlers are by definition warriors. Wrestlers harm their opponents... exaustion maybe the goal but its still violent; you can break bones, twist too far, cause severe lasting damage. She can be a wrestler and still be considered a warrior.
    Where do you take this idea that Wrestlers are warriors? I've never heard that in my life. The historical use of warrior was totally unrelated to wrestlers. Wrestlers and Warriors are both types of Fighters, but they are separate categories.

    And yes, a Wrestler can certainly can harm, but their core goal is decidedly unharmful. You can't have a boxer that doesn't harm. You Can't have fencing without armor. But little kids can wrestle without hurting each other.

  15. #3360
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Why not both? As if Zeus would care. He'd probably just think it made her more fun. Also if her father is a mortal you have to answer the question of why?
    Believe it or not, Zeus sleeping with his granddaughter is actually something he has never done. His sisters? 100% ok, Olympians keep it in the family. But, daughters or granddaughters? not really no, you could make the argument of him sleeping with Persephone that one time but it was later changed and generally accepted to be ignored or it being actually Hades.

    IMO Diana is the granddaughter of Ares as Hippolyta is the daughter of Ares. But, Diana was sculpted from Gaia, a primordial multiverse level entity that represents creation and earth, and brought to life by multiple Goddess and some Gods. This puts her above a Demigoddess actually, were we to fully explore it. She's a lesser Goddess in truth, not on the same level as a full God like Ares or even Zeus, who are second and first generation Olympians respectively, but more powerful then say Herakles or Perseus.
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