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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The vilification Diana got for killing Max Lord was DC trying to have their calf and eat it too. They knew turning a fan favorite into a villain would be controversial so they decided to make the audience hate Diana for killing Max rather than them for making him a villain and thus necessitating Diana killing Max in the first place.
    For me? Villifying her for killing Max Lord. Not the fact she killed him, but how they tried to act like it was the wrong thing for her to do.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    For me? Villifying her for killing Max Lord. Not the fact she killed him, but how they tried to act like it was the wrong thing for her to do.
    Meanwhile, Bruce's venture into mass surveillance and Clark's covering up a rape and the League's human rights abuses were forgotten about almost immediately after they were revealed. The latter didn't even get brought in Infinite Crisis which was supposed to be about the Trinity being taken to task for their mistakes.

  3. #33
    Spectacular Member Natamaxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Stands to reason.
    They're writers of comparable talent, and Azz wasn't handicapped by having his story be required to be about how the last couple of years didn't happen.
    Was it specifically mandated by DC that Ruka's run be about upending the Azz run, or was it his own personal mission to do so simply because it didn't suit his tastes and his interpretation of the character? They can claim the former, but his storytelling choices and not so subtle in-story swipes show it was the latter.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natamaxxx View Post
    Was it specifically mandated by DC that Ruka's run be about upending the Azz run, or was it his own personal mission to do so simply because it didn't suit his tastes and his interpretation of the character?
    Knowing Rucka, he must have loved 90% of Azzarello's run. He writes similar stuff all the time.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carabas View Post
    Knowing Rucka, he must have loved 90% of Azzarello's run. He writes similar stuff all the time.
    I think the Amazons are the only things he must have really disliked. He didn't attack the demigod origin nearly as much. Probably because he wasn't allowed to, but I always took Hippolyta's comment about the eagle in Year One part 2 and putting her trust in it as a sign as a nod to her affair with Zeus, and it wasn't painted as negative. She was clearly with Philippus now anyway.

    I honestly don't think he'd have a problem using characters like Zola or the revamped Gods, but Finch ruined that stuff already anyway.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    If I had to guess Rucka disliked the Amazons raping sailors to reproduce and the WW/Superman relationship. He probably would’ve made her clay if he could have, but I don’t think being the daughter of Zeus is a dealbreaker. He said at the start of Rebirth there was one thing he couldn’t change and I’m betting that was the Papa Zeus origin.

    As for a controversial opinion: Azz’s use of the Gods was the most interesting they’ve ever been to me. I like burned out Ares, the failed mentor more than cackling Ares the villain. The designs were LEAGUES cooler than the Greek toga look they usually sport.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Killing sailors. They weren't raped. The fornication before the murders was never portrayed as anything but consensual. Its semantics in the sense that the Amazons still did something very out-of-character to past incarnations and something we all agree is downright terrible, but all the same just because they committed one horrendous crime doesn't mean its applicable to tag them with another that the writing does not support.

    That whole thing would have worked so much better if the Amazons just seduced the men then let them go on their merry way.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 09-28-2018 at 12:44 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  8. #38
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Killing sailors. They weren't raped. The fornication before the murders was never portrayed as anything but consensual. Its semantics in the sense that the Amazons still did something very out-of-character to past incarnations and something we all agree is downright terrible, but all the same just because they committed one horrendous crime doesn't mean its applicable to tag them with another that the writing does not support.

    That whole thing would have worked so much better if the Amazons just seduced the men then let them go on their merry way.
    I still don't understand why they didn't just go ashore, hit the local bars, pick up some guys for a one night stand then leave before the sun comes up.

    Much more subtle and less likely to raise suspicions

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I still don't understand why they didn't just go ashore, hit the local bars, pick up some guys for a one night stand then leave before the sun comes up.

    Much more subtle and less likely to raise suspicions
    "(ll. 54-59) `Son of Iapetus [Prometheus], surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me [Zeus] and stolen fire -- a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.'

    (ll. 60-68) So said the father of men and gods, and laughed aloud. And he bade famous Hephaestus make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind, and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal goddesses in face; and Athene to teach her needlework and the weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace upon her head and cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs. And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argus, to put in her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature.

    (ll. 69-82) So he ordered. And they obeyed the lord Zeus the son of Cronos. Forthwith the famous Lame God moulded clay in the likeness of a modest maid, as the son of Cronos purposed. And the goddess bright-eyed Athene girded and clothed her, and the divine Graces and queenly Persuasion put necklaces of gold upon her, and the rich-haired Hours crowned her head with spring flowers. And Pallas Athene bedecked her form with all manners of finery. Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora (2), because all they who dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread."

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Killing sailors. They weren't raped. The fornication before the murders was never portrayed as anything but consensual. Its semantics in the sense that the Amazons still did something very out-of-character to past incarnations and something we all agree is downright terrible, but all the same just because they committed one horrendous crime doesn't mean its applicable to tag them with another that the writing does not support.

    That whole thing would have worked so much better if the Amazons just seduced the men then let them go on their merry way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I still don't understand why they didn't just go ashore, hit the local bars, pick up some guys for a one night stand then leave before the sun comes up.

    Much more subtle and less likely to raise suspicions
    I agree that calling the Amazons rapists is getting old. What they did is already bad enough, but nothing shown supports that they raped the men.

    There really is no valid in-story reason for them to kill the men aside from shock value. We never see anyone reach the island without divine assistance in this run, so Paradise Island much like all versions cannot be reached by mortal means. If people suspected their true existence, who would be able to find them?

  11. #41
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Diana works a lot better when she doesn't have to compete with Superman.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    "(ll. 54-59) `Son of Iapetus [Prometheus], surpassing all in cunning, you are glad that you have outwitted me [Zeus] and stolen fire -- a great plague to you yourself and to men that shall be. But I will give men as the price for fire an evil thing in which they may all be glad of heart while they embrace their own destruction.'

    (ll. 60-68) So said the father of men and gods, and laughed aloud. And he bade famous Hephaestus make haste and mix earth with water and to put in it the voice and strength of human kind, and fashion a sweet, lovely maiden-shape, like to the immortal goddesses in face; and Athene to teach her needlework and the weaving of the varied web; and golden Aphrodite to shed grace upon her head and cruel longing and cares that weary the limbs. And he charged Hermes the guide, the Slayer of Argus, to put in her a shameless mind and a deceitful nature.

    (ll. 69-82) So he ordered. And they obeyed the lord Zeus the son of Cronos. Forthwith the famous Lame God moulded clay in the likeness of a modest maid, as the son of Cronos purposed. And the goddess bright-eyed Athene girded and clothed her, and the divine Graces and queenly Persuasion put necklaces of gold upon her, and the rich-haired Hours crowned her head with spring flowers. And Pallas Athene bedecked her form with all manners of finery. Also the Guide, the Slayer of Argus, contrived within her lies and crafty words and a deceitful nature at the will of loud thundering Zeus, and the Herald of the gods put speech in her. And he called this woman Pandora (2), because all they who dwelt on Olympus gave each a gift, a plague to men who eat bread."
    I... don't get it. Could you elaborate please?

  13. #43
    Incredible Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I... don't get it. Could you elaborate please?
    Not sure of the why, but it looks like Kjn is referencing the creation of Pandora and the gods getting back at the humans for stealing fire

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I... don't get it. Could you elaborate please?
    Simple. The misogyny and the idea that women are a curse upon men goes back a long time. Also look at the descriptive text. I wouldn't be surprised if Marston had read Hesiod's "Works and Days" and crafted his Amazons directly in response to the Pandora myth (which really is an origin story of how women came about).

    Azzarello really is bizarro Marston. (Of course, Morrison's Earth One is also bizarro Marston. Now I'm afraid some future writer will attempt to pick up all the bad ideas from both of those runs.)

  15. #45
    Spectacular Member VonHammersmark's Avatar
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    The amazzons were a caricature of modern men-hating feminists, the crazies that pour bleach on the crotches of men who spread their legs on the subway and other crazy things like that. The idea was to have Diana bring much-much-needed reform to them which, to my mind, made Wonder Woman so much more relevant as a women's icon in the 21st century than whacking a red penis monster and the XY misogynist gang lol

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